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Hebrew Roots Sacred Name


2T3:16

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I ran into some folks on the internet who say things like: " If you follow a Christ that teaches obedience to Torah, good. If not, then we bow before opposing masters. And can have no accord...." or "and the separator is Torah.
Those that DO verses those that DON'T
Those that do, love Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
Those that don't, love the impostor, that Greek lawless false Messiah, taught by those gentile "church fathers", that polluted the truth of who Yeshua is, after the death of the early Apostles."

 

Anybody ever run into this? What is this group about?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I've heard some Messianic Jews say such things. Some Messianic Jews are much like the Judeaizers in the NT which tried to enforce the idea that to be a true Christian one had to basically become a good Jew.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I ran into some folks on the internet who say things like: " If you follow a Christ that teaches obedience to Torah, good. If not, then we bow before opposing masters. And can have no accord...." or "and the separator is Torah.
Those that DO verses those that DON'T
Those that do, love Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
Those that don't, love the impostor, that Greek lawless false Messiah, taught by those gentile "church fathers", that polluted the truth of who Yeshua is, after the death of the early Apostles."

 

Anybody ever run into this? What is this group about?

I was part of that "group" for almost 10 years.  I was a member of a Messianic congregation in Colorado.  At least 85% of its members were Gentiles (I called them wannabe Jews).  This congregation was Torah observant and more focused on "Jewish" identity and tradition than they were Christ.  As a matter of fact, we were not allowed to use the name "Jesus"....we had to use "Yeshua".   Even the ministry "Jews for Jesus", which began in the early 70s (I think) by Moishe Rosen (now deceased) as strictly a Jewish evangelism ministry, has become very "Hebrew Roots"

I am an ethnic Jew.  I was born again almost 40 years ago.  The Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement is pretty much a cult with many schisms.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Here, another quote from my "conversation", one of "them" said: "God's Word and Torah is the first fives books of the Bible. In the Torah God allows for more prophesies and Words to be added SO LONG as they don't change the Torah or diminish it (Deu 13), and the one giving these new words MUST tell people to follow Torah and the God who gave it. The whole Bible as I have studied has nothing in it that goes against the Torah and so in my opinion is God's inspired Word. This includes the Old and New Testaments

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Of the three Messianic Congregations in my city, one follows this strict Jewish tradition.

I met one member and debated with him for about 2 hours.  He finally "gave up" but

did not change his beliefs.  I think Paul called them "Judaizers".  There is nothing "new" here.

The name "Jesus" is directly from the Koine Greek (they had no "j", so "i" is changed to the English "j").

They borrow the doctrine of the Hebrew name from the "Divine Name" movement.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Here, another quote from my "conversation", one of "them" said: "God's Word and Torah is the first fives books of the Bible. In the Torah God allows for more prophesies and Words to be added SO LONG as they don't change the Torah or diminish it (Deu 13), and the one giving these new words MUST tell people to follow Torah and the God who gave it. The whole Bible as I have studied has nothing in it that goes against the Torah and so in my opinion is God's inspired Word. This includes the Old and New Testaments

None of these people follow the law. If they did they'd perform the sacrifices which was part of the law. None of them do. It would be hard too since there's no temple.

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None of these people follow the law. If they did they'd perform the sacrifices which was part of the law. None of them do. It would be hard too since there's no temple.

 

They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

1. Messianic Jews are people who are Jewish by virtue of birth or legitimate conversion into Judaism who later accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still, for all intents and purposes, ethnic Jews who have denied the Jewish belief that the Messiah of Israel has not yet come although Orthodox and Reform Jews reject them as no longer being Jewish.

 

2. Hebrew Roots Movement is a vast group that is as diverse as Pagans. There is no central authority of leadership and there is heavy emphasis on non-trinitarian beliefs and replacement theology (that there is a "spiritual Israel" and a "physical Israel"). Some will observe Torah laws that don't even pertain to today, including Jews, such as blood sacrifice. 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

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Boy, I've gone around and around with many of those of the Hebrew Roots movement. Currently my wife is reading a book called, "Finding Jesus in the Jewish Feasts", or something like that, by Richard Booker. He doesn't seem to be Hebrew Roots, per se, but he thinks keeping the feasts, while not necessary, are important for Christians to see Jesus in al the types, to see Him in the pictures. I think understanding them is good-it IS scripture, but I think a keeping of them all is a mistake, because we were given ONE 'feast;, as it were, by Jesus for us to observe to see Jesus, and that is the Lord's Supper, and I think, rather than keeping the feasts that looked forward to the Messiah, we should keep the one that looks back to Him and what He did for us.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Boy, I've gone around and around with many of those of the Hebrew Roots movement. Currently my wife is reading a book called, "Finding Jesus in the Jewish Feasts", or something like that, by Richard Booker. He doesn't seem to be Hebrew Roots, per se, but he thinks keeping the feasts, while not necessary, are important for Christians to see Jesus in al the types, to see Him in the pictures. I think understanding them is good-it IS scripture, but I think a keeping of them all is a mistake, because we were given ONE 'feast;, as it were, by Jesus for us to observe to see Jesus, and that is the Lord's Supper, and I think, rather than keeping the feasts that looked forward to the Messiah, we should keep the one that looks back to Him and what He did for us.

By a sheer technicality, no one in today's times can "keep" the feasts, since keeping the feasts were relevant to the places where God, Himself, ordained the practices to be observed. Since the literal temple has been destroyed, there is no way that Jews, or Messianics, or those belonging to the HRM can keep the feasts. They can observe, or celebrate, the feasts, but not keep them.

 

Now, here is my whole take. I don't observe traditional holiday practices that have Pagan roots and practices that were adopted by the early Catholic church and have been sanitized and secularized to appeal to consumerism. I take no part in Halloween, Christmas trees, Easter egg hunts, etc. Those are man made, Pagan in origin, and no amount of "Christianizing" them can redeem them, in my eyes. Perhaps it's my background in the occult that I see these things for what they are. Most people see them as innocuous, but if you've never worshiped a tree or seen the fertility aspects in a wreath you wouldn't understand the Pagan significance behind them. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to celebrate the birth of Jesus through the exchanging of presents, decorating a tree (in fact, God warned against the practice of cutting down a tree and adorning it with silver and gold in the book of Jeremiah), singing "Jingle Bells", etc. As a matter of fact, nowhere does the Bible say we are to observe the birth of Christ at all, particularly in December, when He wasn't really born, on a date that directly coincides with ancient Pagan sun deity worship. 

 

I, personally, don't see the danger in observing the feasts under two conditions:

 

1. They don't present a stumbling block to other believers or members of the Jewish faith/race. Some Jewish people take great offense when Gentiles hijack the traditional Jewish holy days for themselves.

 

2. They do not turn into a situation of works-righteousness. The feasts are not an atonement for our sin. They do not supersede Christ's finished work on the cross. They do not make a person more holy or sanctified than someone who does not observe the feasts. They are not salvation. They do not replace salvation through faith alone. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I forgot one last group in my list. Jews for Jesus. A lot of people erroneously call Messianic Jews "Jews for Jesus". Jews for Jesus is actually its own separate entity. Jews for Jesus is a group of evangelical Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism, reject the Torah, do not have anything to do with Judaica, and do not celebrate the feasts. They are completely assimilated to the "Gentile" way and they go into Jewish communities to convert Jews to Christianity. They do so by employing deceptive tactics and confusing language in their missionary work.

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I forgot one last group in my list. Jews for Jesus. A lot of people erroneously call Messianic Jews "Jews for Jesus". Jews for Jesus is actually its own separate entity. Jews for Jesus is a group of evangelical Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism, reject the Torah, do not have anything to do with Judaica, and do not celebrate the feasts. They are completely assimilated to the "Gentile" way and they go into Jewish communities to convert Jews to Christianity. They do so by employing deceptive tactics and confusing language in their missionary work.

I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

1. Messianic Jews are people who are Jewish by virtue of birth or legitimate conversion into Judaism who later accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still, for all intents and purposes, ethnic Jews who have denied the Jewish belief that the Messiah of Israel has not yet come although Orthodox and Reform Jews reject them as no longer being Jewish.

2. Hebrew Roots Movement is a vast group that is as diverse as Pagans. There is no central authority of leadership and there is heavy emphasis on non-trinitarian beliefs and replacement theology (that there is a "spiritual Israel" and a "physical Israel"). Some will observe Torah laws that don't even pertain to today, including Jews, such as blood sacrifice.

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts.

.

I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

They don't know how to do this:

 

 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

 

And they ignore this:

 

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." - 2 Timothy 3:15-17

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 

 

Yeah, what a bunch of frauds. The Lord didn't say not to keep the sacrifices just that they don't amount to anything if they were disobeying every other part of the law.

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Yeah, I've run into a few that claimed that "Jesus" is Zeus and we should not use the name.

This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

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