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Gray Areas


Donald

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Recently, on another thread I had a discussion about “avoiding sin”; But the fact is, “sin” isn’t the only thing we must avoid.........
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Hebrews 12:1)

There can be things in our life, that can “harm us” Spiritually, that are not sin.
What we need to do, is ask the LORD to identify these areas in our life(that are weighting us down), so that we can lay them aside.

Then we should be sensitive to the Lord, “putting His finger”, on those areas in our life and then be willing to get red of them.
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-SOMETHING TO AVOID-
When doing this, it is very important, that we avoid coming up with OUR OWN LIST of things that WE THINK are weighing us down.(Going ahead of the Lord)
This is important because this is crossing a line.

The line that I am talking about is going about to establish our own righteousness.......
“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3)

This is, as real a trap of Satan, as getting our eyes of the mark or tempting us to sin.
If Satan can get us concentrating on gray areas that the LORD hasn’t spoken to us about, this will distract us from any REAL PROBLEMS in our life.
--------------------------------------------------
-WHAT I SUGGEST-
I think that it is wise, for all of to KEEP, everything in our lives “on the table” all the time: and open for the Lord to “put His finger on” anything He wants, at any time He sees fit.

I recall many years ago(September 1986), as I was leaving a meeting late one night, and driving home by myself; As I was in prayer, the LORD spoke to my heart and told me, not to watch any NFL football that season.
Well, just as Abraham responded, when told to sacrifice Isaac, I immediately obeyed; Even though I was really looking forward to it that year.

Well the Lord knew what He was doing, because just one month later, the Lord called me to my first Church and I was very busy during that time in my life; And football would have been a real distraction to me.

Now there is NOTHING WRONG with NFL football(as long as you record the Sunday games and watch them after Church). But being obedient to the Lord is more important than anything else in our life.
 

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"Grey Area Theology" is an excuse for many to do what they want to because "the Lord has not spoken to me" on this issue.  But that is the opposite of how a Christian is to act:

 

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

 

We should not wait for the Lord to tell us what NOT to do, we should be busy proving that what we do is acceptable to God.  While we are studying to prove what is or is not acceptable, the Lord will show us; but it is not something that we fold our hands, sit back, and just wait for this "mystical experience."

 

The verse you quoted from Romans 10 has nothing to do with sanctification; the context is salvation.  While I agree that there are many preachers out there who harp on their standards, and those standards become a test of fellowship when they should not, they are not doing those things to attain their salvation, or to keep their salvation.  They do those things in their own feeble attempts to please the Lord.  So, while I might disagree with their "list" and their attitude toward their list, I will not berate them for their efforts to please the Lord.

 

Everything you say SOUNDS good, but when put to the test, it does not work.  The other thread where we were discussing music demonstrated the following:

1.  You are not truly willing to study a matter out for yourself

2.  You are more intent on justifying your current position than truly examining it in light of Scripture

3.  You are happy to use "grey area" theology as an excuse to justify your ignorance on a subject

4.  You put the responsibility on OTHERS to prove you WRONG, when the Scriptures place the responsibility to YOU to prove something RIGHT (see above). 

 

While I will admit that there are SOME "grey areas" that we as brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree over, I don't think there are nearly as many "grey areas" as most want to believe.  Those who are always wanting to discuss "grey areas" do so to justify things that the Scriptures CLEARLY speak against, but they refuse to accept what the Scripture says on the matter because they are mentally lazy.  They demand the "silver bullet study method" instead of the Scriptural study method found in Isa. 28:9-11 - line upon line, precept upon precept (oops! back to Biblical "PRINCIPLES" again!),  and "here a little, there a little."   People don't like to study because it takes WORK, time, and effort.  It makes them THINK.  So they prefer to carry on in their ignorance falling back on this "grey area" excuse.

 

I don't buy it.  "Grey area theology" has become nothing more than a loose, charismatic-type liberation theology that relies more on a mystical experience to determine right and wrong over against the Holy Bible.

 

In Christ,

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There will always be debates over just what is or isn't a "gray area". Also, just as some use the gray area argument as an excuse to do what they want, there are also those who claim some actual gray areas really must submit to their own view on them.

 

For the most part, Scripture speaks either directly (commands, statutes and such) or indirectly (principles) to most things in our lives. Some things are easier to discern than others and we all mature at different rates, the Lord deals with each of us as individuals and therefore may be addressing one point in this persons life while addressing another in someone elses even though both points are matters in each ones lives.

 

We have to be careful to speak up when something is biblically clear, but we also have to be careful to follow the Lord's leading in when to speak up and when to be silent concerning other matters.

 

As with the NFL example above, the Lord may direct one to abstain for a season in order to give that time to other tasks. At the same time the Lord may direct another to abstain because they have a weakness in the area of drunkenness and the booze commercials are a great temptation to them. For another the Lord may have a different reason they should abstain. Then for some the Lord may not have spoken to them about abstaining at all.

 

One danger I've encountered over the years is when the Lord leads someone away from something or to something, and especially if this comes as a major revelation in their lives, they suddenly become a zealot in that area and believe everyone else should be conforming to their calling in this. Trying to point out to them the Lord has different tasks for different folks and the Lord has different timing for different folks, typically falls on deaf ears. If the Lord has called them to never drink Coke and they are to speak out about something the Coke company is doing, they come to believe that any professing Christian who doesn't do the same thing is weaker or lesser or out of God's will or perhaps not even a Christian at all. This sort of thing has and continues to lead to much division when it should be very clear that if every Christian were speaking about Coke, that would mean nobody would be out soul winning, speaking about abortion, homosexuality, adultery, hell, the coming judgment, etc.

 

We need to work hard to try and avoid extremes, such as claiming areas to be gray when they really are not; or claiming an area to not be gray when it really is. We also need to concentrate first of all on what the Lord is dealing with in our own lives and less upon trying to point out what we think everyone else should, or shouldn't be doing.

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Hello again Steve

It is always interesting to hear from you and I always seem to learn something from your responses.
------------------------
You said.......
“Grey Area Theology" is an excuse for many to do what they want to because "the Lord has not spoken to me" on this issue.  But that is the opposite of how a Christian is to act:”

You are not the first Brother in Christ that I have met, that has QUESTIONED the FACT that our Heavenly Father is still alive and on His throne in heaven and is actively communicating with His children.  This expressed ignorance of His close interaction with us, is simply a matter of a lack of faith on your part.
------------------------
As for Ephesians 5:10..........
As we all know, we can make the Bible say ANYTHING WE WANT, if we are willing to take verses out of CONTEXT.
Clearly the CONTEXT of this thread, is a Godly Christian seeking God’s perfect will for their lives.  
Yet the CONTEXT of Ephesians 5:10 is a backslidden Christian who needs to be turned away from the wicked life he has fallen into.....
“Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” (Ephesians 5:14)

And his wicked life is described in verses 3-5.....
V.3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
V.4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
V.5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Now that is all I am going to say about Ephesians 5:, because I love God’s Word and every verse in the Bible is profitable to us; and I am not going to allow you to trick me into dismissing any of it.

But to interject Scriptures addressing disobedient and backslidden Christians, into a thread that is encouraging honest and committed Christians to seek God’s perfect will for their life, is uncalled for.
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The dishonesty of your next paragraph is disappointing....
“We should not wait for the Lord to tell us what NOT to do, we should be busy proving that what we do is acceptable to God.  While we are studying to prove what is or is not acceptable, the Lord will show us; but it is not something that we fold our hands, sit back, and just wait for this "mystical experience."

This is dishonest, because you build straw men, so you can burn them down.
(1)I have NEVER EVEN HINTED, that we should not be studying to show ourselves approved unto God.
(2)And I have NEVER EVEN HINTED, that we should sit back and fold our hands and wait for the Lord to speak to us.

But even your dishonesty, reveals your personal problems.
You think, “We should not wait for the Lord to tell us what NOT to do...”
But “WE” should decided for ourselves(and others), what NOT to do.

And as for your attitude toward the great blessing of hearing from the Lord.
You call it a "mystical experience."

The real Christian life, is one where we are ALIVE IN CHRIST and are daily hearing from the LORD(in response to our prayers and study of His Word); While ALWAYS putting everything we HEAR through the test of God’s Word.
-------------------------------
Next you said.......
“The verse you quoted from Romans 10 has nothing to do with sanctification; the context is salvation.”

You are half right.  The context of Verse 3 is.......
V.1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
V.2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
V.3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


The Jews as God’s people, got away from the LORD.  And these three verses explain how they GOT AWAY FROM THE LORD.

The Jewish people kind of did the same thing you are doing Steve. They added their own “rules” to God’s Word, in an honest attempt to “make themselves holier”.  And as they were busy studying to prove what was or was not acceptable the LORD, they started writing down their man-made rules. This was called the Mishnah(the Jewish oral traditions).

Anyway, in their attempt to be more acceptable to the LORD, the exact opposite happened; They began to lift their “man-made” rules above God’s Word itself.....
Matthew 15:1-3
V.1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
V.2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
V.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?


The only GRAY AREA that I have brought up in this thread, is NFL football.
And undoubtedly you have you own ideas about it’s acceptability: Your own tradition!

Yes, Romans 10: is about Salvation and it’s relationship to Grace.
But over the years of my study of God’s Word, I have seen over and over again, that “Sanctification”, is also a work of Grace.

Briefly: We are not sanctified by keeping the law!  We are sanctified by OBEDIENCE!
That isn’t obedience to the Law, but to God’s instructions to us by His still small voice.
Consider this verse.....
2 Corinthians 3:18
“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”


Note: “beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord”, is what happens when a Christian daily studies God’s Word.  It is like a mirror that shows us the truth about ourselves.
We are sanctified by the Spirit of the Lord; As we daily study God’s Word and allow the Lord to speak to our hearts maturing us from glory to glory; Becoming more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ(the same image).

In other words; I will never be SANCTIFIED by following your list of do’s and don’ts.
True SANCTIFICATION only comes by following the LORD’s list of do’s and don’ts for us!  That day that I obeyed the LORD’s instructions for me, not to watch football for that season, I was set apart unto God(sanctified), a little bit more.
But this idea, of restricting myself from ANYTHING that I THINK, MIGHT be offensive to the Lord, doesn’t do anyone any good at all.
------------------------
Next you said....
Everything you say SOUNDS good, but when put to the test, it does not work.  The other thread where we were discussing music demonstrated the following:
1.  You are not truly willing to study a matter out for yourself
2.  You are more intent on justifying your current position than truly examining it in light of Scripture
3.  You are happy to use "grey area" theology as an excuse to justify your ignorance on a subject
4.  You put the responsibility on OTHERS to prove you WRONG, when the Scriptures place the responsibility to YOU to prove something RIGHT (see above).


The TEST you referred to, is YOUR PERSONAL TEST of righteousness.
Praise the Lord, I am not going to stand before you at the Judgement seat of Christ, but before the Lord.

It’s interesting that you have never met me, but have come to so many conclusions about me, simply because I break your #1 RULE IN LIFE, by listening to secular music.
------------------------
Next....you make yourself the judge...
“While I will admit that there are SOME "grey areas" that we as brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree over, I don't think there are nearly as many "grey areas" as most want to believe.  Those who are always wanting to discuss "grey areas" do so to justify things that the Scriptures CLEARLY speak against, but they refuse to accept what the Scripture says on the matter because they are mentally lazy.  They demand the "silver bullet study method" instead of the Scriptural study method found in Isa. 28:9-11 - line upon line, precept upon precept (oops! back to Biblical "PRINCIPLES" again!),  and "here a little, there a little."   People don't like to study because it takes WORK, time, and effort.  It makes them THINK.  So they prefer to carry on in their ignorance falling back on this "grey area" excuse.”

Who has made you the judge, of which gray areas are truly gray?
------------------------
You conclude by saying.......
“I don't buy it.  "Grey area theology" has become nothing more than a loose, charismatic-type liberation theology that relies more on a mystical experience to determine right and wrong over against the Holy Bible.”

As far as I can tell, you have coined the phrase "Grey area theology", as another straw man, that you can burn down.  I have NEVER heard this phrase before, but by introducing it into this thread, you are able to take another step to demonize me.

My relationship with my Father in heaven, is not mysticism; But the Biblical method God has arranged for us to have daily communication and fellowship with him.
 

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Donald, once again, you have taken my statements and twisted them beyond all recognition, and in so doing misrepresented me, falsely accused me, and summarily dismissed everything I said.

 

My basic point is this:

As Bible Believing Baptists, we are to base our decisions FIRMLY on the word of God.

I NEVER denied that the Lord speaks to His children.  He does. 

Tell me, when and where did I say that our Heavenly Father is no longer alive, or not on the throne, and not able to speak to us?  Did I say that?  Then why the false accusation?

You are out of line in your emotional response in making such false accusations. 

 

I hold you to a higher standard because of your claims to pastoring.  So what should a pastor encourage his congregation to do?  He should encourage them to read and study the Bible, and base their decisions on that.  Yet on these two threads we have interacted on, your emphasis is NOT on the Scripture, but rather on your EXPERIENCE.  And when faced with Scripture, you find a way to circuMVent Bible teaching so that you can defend your position. 

Most certainly the Lord does speak to me in that "still small voice" and gives me guidance, wisdom, and direction in my personal life.  It is simply something I don't go around bragging about, because the emphasis in my life is the reading and studying of the Holy Bible.  God never told us to "search for a still small voice," but rather Jesus told us to "search the Scriptures." 

My reason for responding to you on this thread was to BALANCE what you said.  As leaders of God's people, we must be careful not to send a mixed message.  How do we determine God's will for my life?  Easy! As you read, study, and obey Scripture, God will lead you where you ought to be.  But too many people listen to what you say about "hearing God's voice," and take that as an excuse to NOT read, NOT study, and NOT serve in accordance with Scripture.  I have seen it too many times to count.  So I am addressing basic problems with human nature.  You seem to be oblivious to how people hear what you are saying and taking it in a manner you did not intend.  This is again another problem in our pulpits - leaders not understanding the basic principles in leadership, and not understanding the nature of those who follow.  It causes problems - big problems.  You as a leader should know and understand this, and allow for it.  We are going to have to go the extra mile, and be extremely careful in how we teach and preach, so that our message to our congregations is crystal clear.  And even then, many times they won't understand exactly if they are not reading and studying on their own.  I can't tell you how many times I have had to correct someone in error in personal counseling on an issue that I had preached on many times.  They didn't understand it because their was no effort in their own personal lives. 

That being the case, does this not then put a huge burden of responsibility upon the preacher to not lead people astray by not speaking clearly and thoroughly on a subject?  We should be careful to not allow them to use what we preach as an excuse to sin.  What your first post said did just that.  I have heard far too many professing Christians excuse their sin by saying exactly what you said.  That is the issue I am addressing.  And that is why I coined the phrase "Grey Area Theology" because that is where so many Christians live.  They reject clear teaching from the Bible as "personal opinion", they justify their behavior, and exalt personal experience over the Bible.

 

I did not say there were NO grey areas - just not very many grey areas.  I never claimed to be a "judge" of the grey area either.  In fact, I didn't give any lists of what is or is not in the "grey area."  So once again, you have leveled a false accusation against me by saying that I have made myself the judge of these matters.  I have not.  I appeal to SCRIPTURE to be the final authority, not myself.  

My point is that we should not be living in the grey areas, and bragging about those areas.  We should instead be seeking clear counsel from the word of God, and encouraging God's people to do the same.  You claim to do this, but all you seem to want to discuss is the grey areas and your "liberty." 

 

Now brother, you have accused me of being dishonest, of making up a list of rules (where is said list???), of saying that God is not alive and on the throne, of making myself the judge, of having a #1 rule in life of not listening to secular music, and other accusations.

Brother - these are all bald face lies.  You have absolutely nothing to substantiate this.

I wrote in an attempt to help you see where people take your teaching. 

 

It is clear to me that you have an axe to grind with me because I challenged your position on music.  Neither of the conversations we have had have been edifying in my view.  Therefore, because of your repeated false accusations, because of your repeated twisting and perverting of my statements, I cease and desist from any further conversations with you.  It is unfortunate that we are not able to have a reasonable discussion of the issues, as these issues need to be discussed.

 

So long,

In Christ,

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There will always be debates over just what is or isn't a "gray area". Also, just as some use the gray area argument as an excuse to do what they want, there are also those who claim some actual gray areas really must submit to their own view on them.

 

For the most part, Scripture speaks either directly (commands, statutes and such) or indirectly (principles) to most things in our lives. Some things are easier to discern than others and we all mature at different rates, the Lord deals with each of us as individuals and therefore may be addressing one point in this persons life while addressing another in someone elses even though both points are matters in each ones lives.

 

We have to be careful to speak up when something is biblically clear, but we also have to be careful to follow the Lord's leading in when to speak up and when to be silent concerning other matters.

 

As with the NFL example above, the Lord may direct one to abstain for a season in order to give that time to other tasks. At the same time the Lord may direct another to abstain because they have a weakness in the area of drunkenness and the booze commercials are a great temptation to them. For another the Lord may have a different reason they should abstain. Then for some the Lord may not have spoken to them about abstaining at all.

 

One danger I've encountered over the years is when the Lord leads someone away from something or to something, and especially if this comes as a major revelation in their lives, they suddenly become a zealot in that area and believe everyone else should be conforming to their calling in this. Trying to point out to them the Lord has different tasks for different folks and the Lord has different timing for different folks, typically falls on deaf ears. If the Lord has called them to never drink Coke and they are to speak out about something the Coke company is doing, they come to believe that any professing Christian who doesn't do the same thing is weaker or lesser or out of God's will or perhaps not even a Christian at all. This sort of thing has and continues to lead to much division when it should be very clear that if every Christian were speaking about Coke, that would mean nobody would be out soul winning, speaking about abortion, homosexuality, adultery, hell, the coming judgment, etc.

 

We need to work hard to try and avoid extremes, such as claiming areas to be gray when they really are not; or claiming an area to not be gray when it really is. We also need to concentrate first of all on what the Lord is dealing with in our own lives and less upon trying to point out what we think everyone else should, or shouldn't be doing.

 

Good morning John and thank you for your response.

I know that I may come-off as just a “trouble maker” here on this forum; But the last thing I want to do is cause trouble.

I feel(in my heart), that the Lord has led me to say the things I have said, in an effort to “help people”, in their walk with the Lord and in their ministry to others.
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The fact is, you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.  Therefore if anything is to be accomplished in people’s hearts, they need to be provoked, so as to examine where they are really coming from.

I praise the Lord, that I have been “PROVOKED” in the short time that I have been here.  And this provocation has caused me to do some serious self examination.
Brother, I am convinced that opening ourselves up to serious challenges about where we stand with the Lord, is one of the healthiest things we can do.
 

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I think what the duke is saying does make sense from a (for lack of a better phrase) high level viewpoint. It is the practicality of these ideas that some have issue with.

Your understanding of liberty at your level gives you peace about the beach boys or TV. The danger of teaching this is that it has probably every single time made younger or weaker brothers and sisters stumble.

You teach the liberty of the beach boys, someone else takes that as heavy metal being ok then too (for them). That is the problem the Word identifies with this mindset I think. We are to promote nothing that would make a weaker brother stumble.

 

And a learned brother like you certainly knows that, don't you? I can't speak for Pastor Steve, but I think that is a big part of what he is objecting too (or maybe a medium part)

 

I think my point is, if you have peace about the things you do, fine but why teach it? Just do it and mind your business about it. No harm done to others weaker than yourself?

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Donald, Wow! you must not be completely reading the same posts from Steve as I am. You're saying he said things he never did! Don't 'assume' anything and try to read between the lines because there's nothing there. He never said he didn't study the Word on issues to make sure they lined up Biblically he said exactly the opposite.

Do you have a special form of dyslexia that makes you read the opposite of what it actually says?

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"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" - Jeremiah 17:9

 

 

This is true; But you are forgetting THE NEXT VERSE........
“I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jeremiah 17:10)

I have been aware of Verse 9 for many years, therefore I daily(hourly), ask the LORD to search my heart and try my reins and reveal to me ANYTHING that I need to deal with.

It is from this perspective that I am even able to minster.
------------------------
What I mean is, God takes “SIN” very seriously; And we can not be expected to be used by Him to minister to others, if we have known sin in our life.......
Psalms 66:18
“If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:”


Therefore, we need to daily be dealing with our sin and asking the Lord to reveal anything in our life or our heart, that hinders us in any way, in order to be used by Him.

That is; Even though I am a dirty rotten sinner and deserve to go to hell, I can’t stand behind a pulpit and preach, with “unconfessed sin in my life”; Because if I did, I would be on my own(in the flesh).
------------------------
So when I say the words, “I feel(in my heart)”, it is from this kind of daily self examination, that I am speaking.
 

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I think what the duke is saying does make sense from a (for lack of a better phrase) high level viewpoint. It is the practicality of these ideas that some have issue with.

Your understanding of liberty at your level gives you peace about the beach boys or TV. The danger of teaching this is that it has probably every single time made younger or weaker brothers and sisters stumble.

You teach the liberty of the beach boys, someone else takes that as heavy metal being ok then too (for them). That is the problem the Word identifies with this mindset I think. We are to promote nothing that would make a weaker brother stumble.

 

And a learned brother like you certainly knows that, don't you? I can't speak for Pastor Steve, but I think that is a big part of what he is objecting too (or maybe a medium part)

 

I think my point is, if you have peace about the things you do, fine but why teach it? Just do it and mind your business about it. No harm done to others weaker than yourself?

Yes, this is my point exactly.

It creates doubt for the weaker Christian in violation of Romans 14, and it gives an excuse to the worldly Christian to take it to another level as you illustrated....

 

Thanks for the input!

 

In Christ,

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