2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "falling Away" Or "departure"?

[beameup]

The King James was based largely on the work of Tyndale. 

In Tyndale it reads:

We beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Iesu Christ, and in that we shall assemble unto him,

2that ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, and be not troubled, neither by spirit, neither by words,

nor yet by letter, which should seem to come from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a departing first,

and that that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition (ie: Antichrist)

 

The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning

a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language.  However, the idea

of departure (as in a ship leaving the dock), more closely conveys the meaning of the Greek apostasia.

 

It will be the Christian's bon voyage from this world.  Of course, it could also be a double entendre, which would not surprise me.

[Gorship]

um. Apostasia means apostasy; I'm not super interested in what Tyndale has to say, I'm here to read the Bible

 

G646

ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Taken from Strongs
 

no double meaning, just a falling away

Edited May 4, 2014 by Gorship

[beameup]

um. Apostasia means apostasy; I'm not super interested in what Tyndale has to say, I'm here to read the Bible

 

no double meaning, just a falling away

Most other English translations prior to King James properly translated apostasia as "departure".

The word "apostasia" was incorporated (transliterated) into the English language

DIRECTLY from the Koine Greek, and in the intervening decades, "apostasy" also shifted in meaning (not uncommon).

The fact is that the KJV translators relied HEAVILY upon the N.T. work done by Tyndale.  Tyndale was burned at

the stake by the Catholic Church for simply translating the Bible into English.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2 Thes 2:11-12

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Edited May 4, 2014 by beameup

[282Mikado]

Jerome translated the Greek New Testament into Latin in the 4^th century (the Vulgate).

He used the Latin word discessio, meaning departure, for the Greek word apostasia.

Jerome was commissioned in 383 AD by Pope Damasus to write the Latin Vulgate for the Roman Catholic Church. As the main foundation of this effort Jerome relied heavily on the Alexandrian texts with all their modifications. These same modifications are the foundation for many of the errors introduced into the RCC.

 

Jerome''s Vulgate was completed in 405 AD and became the RCCs official Bible. In 1546 at the council of Trent it was made the official Bible of Catholicism.

 

To Jerome's credit he was reluctant to take on this work as there was already a Latin version of the NT in use by the common believers already known as the Latin Vulgate. His concerns were well justified as shortly after the release of Jerome's Vulgate we begin to see defections of true believers who held to their "Textus Receptus" readings of that of Jerome and the RCC.

 

I'd rather not look to Jerome for scriptural guidance.

 

As for translations:

 

From the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon

ἀπο-στα^σία , ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις,

 

1. defection, revolt, esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy

2. departure, disappearance

3. distinguishing

4. distance

 

As has been mentioned before, from Strongs:

αποστασια apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

 

feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

See Greek 647:

αποστασιον apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on

 

neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:—(writing of) divorcement.

 

See Greek 868:

αφιστημι aphistemi af-is'-tay-mee

 

from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

 

I could go on, but it is all the same meaning.

 

The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning

a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language.  However, the idea

of departure (as in a ship leaving the dock), more closely conveys the meaning of the Greek apostasia.

 

It will be the Christian's bon voyage from this world.  Of course, it could also be a double entendre, which would not surprise me.

 

Beameup stated: "The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language."

 

From where do you get this bit of knowledge? The Translators of the KJV were the most knowledgeable men of their time, fluent in many languages, each devoted to God and His word. Every translated scripture was reviewed by another team of translators for accuracy. It may do you good to look up the various translators of the KJV and review their educational pedigree. Few come close even today. Add to that God's guiding hand and it is easy to see how the KJV is verbal and plenary inspired word of God for the English language. Why English? When Greek was used that was the language of commerce. When Latin was used (1st Latin Vulgate) Latin was the language of commerce. When English was used English was becoming the language of commerce, and it still is today.

 

I can actually see the word departure being used in this verse, but not as you seem to believe. How about instead of "a ship leaving the dock" it instead refers to a population leaving the Rock (Jesus Christ). When someone revolts against a concept, principle, or action, (like the draft dodgers of the 60's) they depart from those that are in support of that concept, principle or action. Many draft dodgers departed to Canada.

 

Let's not force something into the scripture that really just isn't there.

Edited May 4, 2014 by 282Mikado

[Gorship]

Jerome was commissioned in 383 AD by Pope Damasus to write the Latin Vulgate for the Roman Catholic Church. As the main foundation of this effort Jerome relied heavily on the Alexandrian texts with all their modifications. These same modifications are the foundation for many of the errors introduced into the RCC.

 

Jerome''s Vulgate was completed in 405 AD and became the RCCs official Bible. In 1546 at the council of Trent it was made the official Bible of Catholicism.

 

To Jerome's credit he was reluctant to take on this work as there was already a Latin version of the NT in use by the common believers already known as the Latin Vulgate. His concerns were well justified as shortly after the release of Jerome's Vulgate we begin to see defections of true believers who held to their "Textus Receptus" readings of that of Jerome and the RCC.

 

I'd rather not look to Jerome for scriptural guidance.

 

As for translations:

 

From the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon

ἀπο-στα^σία , ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις,

 

1. defection, revolt, esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy

2. departure, disappearance

3. distinguishing

4. distance

 

As has been mentioned before, from Strongs:

αποστασια apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

 

feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

See Greek 647:

αποστασιον apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on

 

neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:—(writing of) divorcement.

 

See Greek 868:

αφιστημι aphistemi af-is'-tay-mee

 

from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

 

I could go on, but it is all the same meaning.

 

 

Beameup stated: "The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language."

 

From where do you get this bit of knowledge? The Translators of the KJV were the most knowledgeable men of their time, fluent in many languages, each devoted to God and His word. Every translated scripture was reviewed by another team of translators for accuracy. It may do you good to look up the various translators of the KJV and review their educational pedigree. Few come close even today. Add to that God's guiding hand and it is easy to see how the KJV is verbal and plenary inspired word of God for the English language. Why English? When Greek was used that was the language of commerce. When Latin was used (1st Latin Vulgate) Latin was the language of commerce. When English was used English was becoming the language of commerce, and it still is today.

 

I can actually see the word departure being used in this verse, but not as you seem to believe. How about instead of "a ship leaving the dock" it instead refers to a population leaving the Rock (Jesus Christ). When someone revolts against a concept, principle, or action, (like the draft dodgers of the 60's) they depart from those that are in support of that concept, principle or action. Many draft dodgers departed to Canada.

 

Let's not force something into the scripture that really just isn't there.

Im ok with Departure as a definition if used in the proper context and sense, however departure could also just mean leaving in general, or one could even try and make this a rapture passage. Which would completely miss the point of what is being said by need of falling away before the AC comes. Ill take preservation over conjecture with no source material.

[beameup]

I'll make it short and to the point: Tyndale translated apostasia as departure.

It is not  just "a Greek word" any longer.  There are MANY so-called "English words"

that are taken DIRECTLY from the Greek (transliterated). 

 

PS: some here have tried to imply that the "falling away" is the same as "backsliding".

"Backsliding" is a word used in association with Israel.  It is not a New Testament word.

 

PPS: et·y·mol·o·gy

the study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history.

Jerome was commissioned in 383 AD by Pope Damasus to write the Latin Vulgate for the Roman Catholic Church. As the main foundation of this effort Jerome relied heavily on the Alexandrian texts with all their modifications. These same modifications are the foundation for many of the errors introduced into the RCC.

 

Jerome''s Vulgate was completed in 405 AD and became the RCCs official Bible. In 1546 at the council of Trent it was made the official Bible of Catholicism.

 

To Jerome's credit he was reluctant to take on this work as there was already a Latin version of the NT in use by the common believers already known as the Latin Vulgate. His concerns were well justified as shortly after the release of Jerome's Vulgate we begin to see defections of true believers who held to their "Textus Receptus" readings of that of Jerome and the RCC.

 

I'd rather not look to Jerome for scriptural guidance.

 

As for translations:

 

From the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon

ἀπο-στα^σία , ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις,

 

1. defection, revolt, esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy

2. departure, disappearance

3. distinguishing

4. distance

 

As has been mentioned before, from Strongs:

αποστασια apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

 

feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

See Greek 647:

αποστασιον apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on

 

neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:—(writing of) divorcement.

 

See Greek 868:

αφιστημι aphistemi af-is'-tay-mee

 

from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

 

I could go on, but it is all the same meaning.

 

 

Beameup stated: "The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language."

 

From where do you get this bit of knowledge? The Translators of the KJV were the most knowledgeable men of their time, fluent in many languages, each devoted to God and His word. Every translated scripture was reviewed by another team of translators for accuracy. It may do you good to look up the various translators of the KJV and review their educational pedigree. Few come close even today. Add to that God's guiding hand and it is easy to see how the KJV is verbal and plenary inspired word of God for the English language. Why English? When Greek was used that was the language of commerce. When Latin was used (1st Latin Vulgate) Latin was the language of commerce. When English was used English was becoming the language of commerce, and it still is today.

 

I can actually see the word departure being used in this verse, but not as you seem to believe. How about instead of "a ship leaving the dock" it instead refers to a population leaving the Rock (Jesus Christ). When someone revolts against a concept, principle, or action, (like the draft dodgers of the 60's) they depart from those that are in support of that concept, principle or action. Many draft dodgers departed to Canada.

 

Let's not force something into the scripture that really just isn't there.

Edited May 4, 2014 by beameup

[282Mikado]

Im ok with Departure as a definition if used in the proper context and sense, however departure could also just mean leaving in general, or one could even try and make this a rapture passage. Which would completely miss the point of what is being said by need of falling away before the AC comes. Ill take preservation over conjecture with no source material.

 

I agree 100%. The KJV is true, I was just making an example of how someone could use departure with the same meaning as the KJVs "falling away".

[Doc Flay]

I have really learned something here in reading all these posts and having read the link. That verse of scripture has always puzzled me, and now I have a better understanding, perhaps, even though all the posters do not agree. thanks!

[Steve Schwenke]

Beameup

And yet we are still faced with the fact that God chose to use the expression "falling away." 

You completely ignored my explanation on the first page of this thread that explained why that term was used.

 

So go back to Tyndale and the TR all you want...I'm sticking with the KJV.

[282Mikado]

I'll make it short and to the point: Tyndale translated apostasia as departure.

It is not  just "a Greek word" any longer.  There are MANY so-called "English words"

that are taken DIRECTLY from the Greek (transliterated). 

 

PS: some here have tried to imply that the "falling away" is the same as "backsliding".

"Backsliding" is a word used in association with Israel.  It is not a New Testament word.

 

PPS: et·y·mol·o·gy

the study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history.

 

Your understanding of the definition of etymology in no way adds credence to your statement which seems entirely based on assumption:

 

"The newly adopted Greek word apostasia seems to have undergone somwhat of a change in meaning a century after it was originally brought transliterated into the English language."

 

Your post #12 hints that some of the translators you mentioned used Jerome's Vulgate as their source material. If your use of the word departure was there intent, it is likely due to their use of that corrupt manuscript.

 

47 of the greatest minds the world had to offer OBviously felt "falling away" was correct.

Edited May 4, 2014 by 282Mikado

[beameup]

apo - away

stasis - the state of equilibrium or inactivity caused by opposing equal forces (think "static" as opposed to dynamic).

 

These are the "roots" of this English/Greek word. 

 

2 Thes 2:1-3  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

2 Thes 2:6-7  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

Doesn't this sound like a single point in time, yet future and not some sort of "gradual process"?

 

Of course, if you are persuaded that the Body of Christ will go through the Tribulation, then this automatically rules out any reference to a "rapture" (harpazō).

Edited May 5, 2014 by beameup

[LindaR]

Things Hard to be Understood
2Th. 2:1-3

 

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” – 2Th 2:1-3

 

If this passage refers to the Rapture of the church age saints, it would teach that it does not occur until after the appearance of the Antichrist. Some use this passage as a proof text to support such a position. We do not believe the “day of Christ” refers to the Rapture, though. It refers, rather, to “the day of the Lord” spoken of frequently in Old Testament prophecy. This “day” describes the entire period of end-time prophecy stretching from the Tribulation to the Millennium, but it usually focuses on the Tribulation period during which God will deal with Israel and bring them to repentance (Zec 14).

 

Some claim that the falling away in verse 3 refers to believers who lose their salvation. To the contrary, this passage warns of the great apostasy of the last days, and the Apostle does not say that those who fall away are true believers. The true brethren (2Th 2:1) are comforted that they are not the ones being described here. Those who fall away and turn to the antichrist are those who “received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2Th 2:10).

[prophet1]

Things Hard to be Understood
2Th. 2:1-3

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” – 2Th 2:1-3

If this passage refers to the Rapture of the church age saints, it would teach that it does not occur until after the appearance of the Antichrist. Some use this passage as a proof text to support such a position. We do not believe the “day of Christ” refers to the Rapture, though. It refers, rather, to “the day of the Lord” spoken of frequently in Old Testament prophecy. This “day” describes the entire period of end-time prophecy stretching from the Tribulation to the Millennium, but it usually focuses on the Tribulation period during which God will deal with Israel and bring them to repentance (Zec 14).

Some claim that the falling away in verse 3 refers to believers who lose their salvation. To the contrary, this passage warns of the great apostasy of the last days, and the Apostle does not say that those who fall away are true believers. The true brethren (2Th 2:1) are comforted that they are not the ones being described here. Those who fall away and turn to the antichrist are those who “received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2Th 2:10).

1. There is no direct tie- in between the fallen away in verse 3, and those who receive the Mark, in verse 10.
2. You have to be in a position, before you can fall away from it.
The Bible doesn't tell us what this means here, it is left to our conjecture.
But we know that this present world hasn't changed a bit, so it has to be something in Christianity.
Anytime you think the World is getting progressively worse....read
Gen.19 and Judges 19 again.
Or read about the Aztecs.
Or read about Somalia last week.

Anishinaabe

[Ukulelemike]

Interestingly, this word, apostasia, is directly tied to the word apostasion, which is translated as 'divorce', or repudiation. So, yes, again we see a leaving, but it is a breaking away from something formerly attached to-a divorce from a spouse, or a repudiation, an idealogical departure from a previously-held belief.

 

Take it for what its worth.

[beameup]

I'd be happy just to be "divorced" from the law of gravity... oh wait, that is coming at the rapture.

Interestingly, this word, apostasia, is directly tied to the word apostasion, which is translated as 'divorce', or repudiation. So, yes, again we see a leaving, but it is a breaking away from something formerly attached to-a divorce from a spouse, or a repudiation, an idealogical departure from a previously-held belief.

 

Take it for what its worth.