Members beameup Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version. I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure". The King James reads: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The word apostasia was directly brought from the Koine Greek into the English language long before the King James version (changing the ia into y). To me, the correct translation would refer to the rapture of the Church and then the revealing of the Antichrist. I feel that the deception (supernatural) of the Antichrist will be overwhelming and the Church must be removed first. Here is a link concerning this topic: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html Edited August 27, 2013 by beameup Doc Flay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) Are you more skilled in Languages than the men involved in the production of the KJV? If you understand the process used you will know that the passage you refer to was considered by many experts in language before it was settled upon that particular translation of that word in that context. Now I am not skilled enough to say they are right or wrong, but even so, one man's consideration of such a thing surely must bow to many men's agreement of expertise. And that is without considering God's hand in it, which we must not dismiss. Edited August 27, 2013 by DaveW irishman, JerryNumbers, 2bLikeJesus and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted August 27, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 27, 2013 'Apostasia": 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy. this is all Strong's give for the word. I admit that I don't have any prior translations, so I can't speak to that. However, if it CAN mean a departure, why might it not refer to the same thing, a departure from the faith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Popular Post Steve Schwenke Posted August 27, 2013 Members Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2013 This is called changing the Scripture to fit our theology. While I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, I cannot justify changing any verse of the Bible to prove it. We change our theology to fit the Scripture, not the Scripture to fit our theology. It is not necessary to change this passage to prove a pre-trib rapture. The fact is that leading up to the Tribulation, there will be a world-wide apostasy, and we are seeing it come to pass before our very eyes. In Christ, 2bLikeJesus, LindaR, woolysheep and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MountainChristian Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) Doesn't fit with the other occurrence in Acts. Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (rapture) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Plus one would have to get into all the debates over which Greek was being used by Paul. That is a very bad road to be upon. Romans 1:28 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Edited August 27, 2013 by MountainChristian Doc Flay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version. I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure". The King James reads: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The word apostasia was directly brought from the Koine Greek into the English language long before the King James version (changing the ia into y). To me, the correct translation would refer to the rapture of the Church and then the revealing of the Antichrist. I feel that the deception (supernatural) of the Antichrist will be overwhelming and the Church must be removed first. Here is a link concerning this topic: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html If you believe the KJB is flawed, and flawed to a point of effecting this issue so greatly, why would you use the KJB? As well, if the KJB is flawed, which English Bible do you believe is the preserved Word of God in English? Doc Flay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted August 27, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 27, 2013 Shall we start a pool on how many posts it will take until this becomes a 'timing of the rapture' post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition, (Bishop) It is obvious that not all English versions prior to the translating of the KJB did use "departing". As I said in another thread, word definitions change over time. That is why it is important to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed; rightly dividing the Word of Truth." Doc Flay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 I would agree with UM here. Apostasta is not speaking of the Church departing, but of the many departing from the faith. That is not to say the Church will not depart, for I believe it most certainly will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swathdiver Posted August 27, 2013 Members Share Posted August 27, 2013 God promised us he would preserve his Word and he did so with the Authorized Version, the King James Bible. God didn't make any mistakes; it's us, man, whether in typesetting or understanding we err. In my feeble brain, and having never read Greek, "falling away" in this context could mean both to me, the rapture of the saints and what we're living today, a great apostasy, and that both must happen before the man of sin is revealed. However, I've been taught the former and not the latter. It doesn't seem to really matter now does it? Doc Flay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ASongOfDegrees Posted August 28, 2013 Members Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version. I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure". The King James reads: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The word apostasia was directly brought from the Koine Greek into the English language long before the King James version (changing the ia into y). To me, the correct translation would refer to the rapture of the Church and then the revealing of the Antichrist. I feel that the deception (supernatural) of the Antichrist will be overwhelming and the Church must be removed first. Here is a link concerning this topic: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html Balderdash. The KJV has it right. Hebrews 6:6- If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. This is the only other time the phrase "fall away" is used in the NT. Edited August 28, 2013 by ASongOfDegrees wretched, Steve Schwenke and EKSmith 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted August 28, 2013 Author Members Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) Doesn't fit with the other occurrence in Acts. Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (rapture) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. The word "rapture" is not used in any English translation. Jerome translated the Greek New Testament into Latin in the 4th century (the Vulgate). He used the Latin word discessio, meaning departure, for the Greek word apostasia. This meaning was continued in the earliest English translations such as the Wycliff Bible (1384), Tyndale Bible (1526), Coverdale Bible (1535), Cranmer Bible (1539), Breeches Bible (1576), Beza Bible (1583), and Geneva Bible (1608). http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/a-defense-of-the-rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23 The word harpazō, meaning "caught up" is translated as "rapturo" in the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Often in Scripture, different Greek words are used in different places to describe the same thing/event. see 2 Cor 5:1 "house" and 5:2 "house" are different Greek words; 5:1 "tabernacle" and "building" are different words. Edited August 28, 2013 by beameup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted September 13, 2013 Author Members Share Posted September 13, 2013 (edited) The unveiling of the Antichrist will be the most significant event that the entire world has ever experienced. There has been a "falling away" since the time of the Apostle Paul. Why would the Holy Spirit juxtapose a "non event" of apostacy (which has been occurring for 2,000 years) with the revelation of the Antichrist? Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel Galatians 1:6 Edited September 13, 2013 by beameup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Popular Post Steve Schwenke Posted September 13, 2013 Members Popular Post Share Posted September 13, 2013 (edited) The unveiling of the Antichrist will be the most significant event that the entire world has ever experienced. There has been a "falling away" since the time of the Apostle Paul. Why would the Holy Spirit juxtapose a "non event" of apostacy (which has been occurring for 2,000 years) with the revelation of the Antichrist? Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel Galatians 1:6 Very simple. Up until the last 50 years or so, even with certain elements of professing Christianity "falling away" into apostacy, there was always a remnant left that remained true to the word of God. It is quite clear from our historical records that there were heated debates and persecutions that revealed the REAL CHristians from the false. There was a stark contrast between the TRUE CHristians and false. But today, the lines are very unclear. Even in our professing "Bible Believing" ranks, people are apostacizing. They are falling away into worldliness, sloppy methods, sloppy doctrine. Those who were once bold in the Biblical faith are waning. When the truly saved Christians have no regard for the word of God or holiness - well, that is a universal apostacy. It is worldwide, if the accounts from my missionary friends are true. Look, even the BEST of preachers today are worldly to some degree or another. The BEST of our preachers today have compromised on some point. We are in the last days, and there is nothing we can do to stop it, or keep ourselves out of it. The best that we can do is not good enough to keep ourselves our or congregations from being tainted to some degree or another.... Just look at this forum! We are debating the virtues of ALCOHOL and ROCK MUSIC!!! Can't you see where we are in these last days! When God's people are arguing about how far they can take their LIBERTIES, you know we are in an apostate age. They seem to have forgotten this verse: 2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Preachers in OUR CIRCLES (IFB) don't preach against sin, the world, the flesh, or false religions or false churches anymore (they don't want to "offend" any visitors!!!) Our churches were KNOWN for denouncing false religion - loudly and openly. But it takes a CHARISMATIC nut (Terry Jones) to have enough guts to burn the Koran. Where are the Baptists??? Terry Jones had enough courage to challenge the Muslims OPENLY in Dearborn, MI. Where are the Baptists??? Have we forgotten that it was US - Bible Believing Baptists - who led the charge to religious liberty in the Colonial Era? But we have gotten so involved in our own little world, that we seem to have lost our voice! The Baptists have gotten too swallowed up in having big buildings, lots of property, and Bible colleges. They won't go out on the street to preach openly anymore. They won't take a stand in their communities anymore. They all want a nice, polished, suave image, but they will not bear the reproach of their SAVIOUR in an OPEN, PUBLIC manner. They will CLAIM to believe the KJV, but in secret they don't - they go back to the GREEK and HEBREW to change the verses they don't like or understand, or that doesn't fit their little pet doctrines. That is an accurate description of OUR crowd. And when OUR crowd is THAT BAD, then the rest of Christianity is ready for the anti-Christ. He will swallow up TBN, Benny Hinn, and the rest of those fakirs so fast, and they will WELCOME him. Yep. one word. APOSTATE. Indeed - the great "falling away" is here, and I don't mean "the rapture." Edited September 13, 2013 by Steve Schwenke EKSmith, wretched, John81 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musician4God1611 Posted September 19, 2013 Members Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) The word "rapture" is not used in any English translation. Jerome translated the Greek New Testament into Latin in the 4th century (the Vulgate). He used the Latin word discessio, meaning departure, for the Greek word apostasia. This meaning was continued in the earliest English translations such as the Wycliff Bible (1384), Tyndale Bible (1526), Coverdale Bible (1535), Cranmer Bible (1539), Breeches Bible (1576), Beza Bible (1583), and Geneva Bible (1608). http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/a-defense-of-the-rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23 The word harpazō, meaning "caught up" is translated as "rapturo" in the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Often in Scripture, different Greek words are used in different places to describe the same thing/event. see 2 Cor 5:1 "house" and 5:2 "house" are different Greek words; 5:1 "tabernacle" and "building" are different words. The words English and Bible aren't found in any of the English Bibles either! Just because a word isn't found in the Bible doesn't mean that we can't use it to describe something that is found in the Bible. Mountain Christian was simply saying that if the Word was referring to this particular event than it would also be referring to it in Acts. And while I disagree with his logic (if it meant departure, that does fit in the verse in Acts) I also disagree with the gross assumption that the only way we can understand God's Word is to study Greek. Do we believe that the KJB is not only inerrant, but also perfect (complete)? If it is complete than we don't need Greek to explain it, we just need to learn English!!!! Edited September 30, 2013 by musician4god1611 Steve Schwenke, robmac68, MountainChristian and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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