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Promoting Strength


Donald

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Donald, please allow me to go back and review some things you said earlier.

 

Now these have nothing to do with my “Spiritual life”, but they are pleasant to my ear.

I completely disagree here.  Inasmuch as music is spiritual in nature, it does have something to do with your spiritual life, whether you realize it or not.  If you study music throughout the Bible, you cannot help but notice this truth.  What concerns me here is that I know that music does affect people to some degree or another, but when someone says that it does not affect THEM, then I wonder how badly they are truly being affected without even knowing it?  Either they are oblivious to the affects, or they have chosen to ignore the affects, or (worse) justify the affects!

 

What I mean is, your response talks of hedonism(the pursuit of pleasure and sensual self-indulgence), when my OP is talking about “faith” and how calling something “sin” when it is not “sin”, promotes weak faith.

 Now hedonism is sin; But is listening to these songs sin?

 When we start to call something sin, that isn’t sin we are creating our own doctrine...

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mark 7:7)

 

 

 

 

 

The problem here, Donald, is that you have not yet established that rock music is NOT sin.  You have only stated that YOU PERSONALLY don’t think it is, but without any substantive argumentation, and no Scripture whatsoever.  You seem to be basking in your Liberty in Christ, without any consideration to what you perceive to be a weakness in your fellow Christians.  It seems to me that the Scriptures soundly condemn this attitude of flaunting your strength to those who are weaker. 

 

 

 

Romans 14:1  Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

If in fact it is us who are weak on this point of music, then you are to receive us AS WE ARE, without disputing with us in such a way as to create DOUBT.  Acting in DOUBT (as opposed to FAITH) leads one to sin!  (see v. 23!)  So the impetus is upon the “stronger” Christian to deny his “liberties” as an example to the “weaker”, and not cause them to stumble over his “strength.”

Galatians 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

How is it “serving one another” to go around condemning those who have “weaknesses” and then flaunting your perceived “strengths” (such as listening and condoning rock music?)  How does that help me?  How does that help other brothers and sisters who really struggle in this area?  You might think that giving them the liberty to listen this music will remove that guilt and struggle, but maybe that struggle is there for a reason.  Maybe for them that music is a serious threat to their spiritual life.  By encouraging them to go ahead and listen to it anyway, (because after all YOU can!) you are only setting them up for a serious fall. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, that is it for previous posts.  My next post will respond to your latest post.

In Christ,

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Donald, I am condensing your comments for sake of brevity and space.  I believe I understand your full comments in their context, so I am not “cherry-picking.”  I am merely attempting to respond without taking up a lot of space.

And He showed me, that as long as I am “SINCERELY” studying His Word and HONESTLY looking for and being open to the truth; That HIS WORD would convict me about any hypocrisy in my life, every time I studied it.

I understand what you are saying here, but it is possible to “sear your conscience” to the point where, even in daily prayer, study, reading, etc. that we can become hardened on some things.  We can deceive our selves into thinking that something will not hurt us when it really will. 

------------------------

Now, although I am DAILY exposing myself to God’s Word, by meticulously studying it, I am still open to the possibility that I may be misinterpreting His Word or overlooking something for selfish or sinful reasons.

Meticulous?  Brother, you have not shown us ONE SCRIPTURAL ARGUMENT to support your conclusions on music.  What you have consistently relied upon is your own personal experience.  I do not accept this as a valid gauge of right or wrong.

With all that said, yes I am relatively sure that my “lack of conviction”, is an “accurate gauge” of the Lord’s desire “FOR ME”!

That is, I know that the LORD has different “desires” for each of us.  What is perfectly fine for one Christian, may be SIN for another Christian.

Well, I understand that there are SOME “grey areas” in life where are liberty in Christ comes into play.  I just don’t think there are very many “grey areas” as most others do, and I certainly don’t think music is a grey area.  The Bible is crystal clear as to what God intended music for (hint: not for entertainment!), and how God intended us as Christians to use music. 

You know, something most Christians forget in this discussion is that the Devil was a musician for the Lord before his fall (Ezek. 28).  The devil corrupts everything the Lord has created, and uses it as a weapon to destroy US.  So when we venture into the realm of music, we are treading on dangerous ground.  Our enemy is an EXPERT on the subject, so it is in our best interests to be extremely cautious!

I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that it is a sin for SOME CHRISTIANS to listen to Rock and roll music or to watch TV.  But.....this is not true for ALL CHRISTIANS!

(Each of us need to learn to listen to God’s still small voice TO US, to determine what HE wants us to be doing or not doing!)

So we don’t go by the word of God?  You mean to tell me that in your “meticulous study” of Scripture you have not been able to determine what music is to be used for, and what kind of music would be appropriate for the Christian? 

Please allow me to say this with calmness, charity, and compassion.  Please do not take what I am about to say as mean-spirited or self-righteousness.

Brother – you need to get back in that old Book – the King James Bible – and do a very thorough study of music from Genesis to Revelation.  Don’t approach the subject in an attempt to justify your current position, but rather seek to CHALLENGE it.  See if it will hold up under microscopic scrutiny. 

I say this because I have been working on my own personal study of music now for several years (in between secular work, sermon preparation, SS prep, business meetings, counsel, visits, etc….a major study like this takes TIME!)  This study includes the reading of other sources both FOR AND AGAINST rock music and CCM

My point is, Donald, that you as a preacher, and a pastor should not be teaching the people God has entrusted to your care to follow anything but the BIBLE – period.  We can invent our own “still, small voice” to justify ANYTHING.  And I see a disturbing trend in our IFB churches that is leading down this path to charismania, where there “feelings” and “personal convictions” and “following the Holy Spirit” are merely code words for saying, “Forget what the Bible says, I am going to do what I want and blame God for it!”

And this is the point of my OP:

“A PASTOR THAT PREACHES, THAT "ROCK AND ROLL" or "TV", is always sin for everybody, is preventing the people in his congregation from learning to listen to the Lord’s still small voice on their own!”

A pastor should be teaching and preaching the word of God, and demonstrating how, why, and where current pop culture crosses the Holy Bible.  We should be training our congregations to follow the word of God.  I have yet to encounter one problem or issue that the Bible does not speak to CLEARLY, if not directly, then in principle.

Years ago, I realized one of the most DAMAGING things about “legalistic Churches”, was that they STUNTED THE GROWTH of their congregation!

One of the chief ways a Christian “GROWS IN THE FAITH”, is by learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions to them.

Again, I disagree.  A Christian grows in faith by understanding what the Bible teaches, and then acting on it IN FAITH, trusting that God said it for a reason, and that therefore it is in his own best interests to obey the Lord.  If the Christian obeys in faith, he is admitting that he himself, in his flesh, does not know what is best, he is submitting the Lord’s authority in his life by obeying the word of God, and then trusts that God’s hand of blessing/protection/reward will be upon him if he obeys BY FAITH.

But a pastor who tries to take the Holly Spirit’s place, by setting up “extra-biblical” rules, like a dress code or the personal practices of their congregation at home; Prevents those Christians, from learning to listen the Lord’s voice on their own.

Look, I agree that too many preachers focus on a list of “do’s and don’t’s.”  I personally believe that we should never make any demands of the Christian.  They give an account to the Lord for their actions.  But I am held accountable for what I preach and teach, and also for what I do NOT teach and preach.  (IN other words, for NOT preaching on a Bible doctrine that I SHOULD preach on.)  They should instead focus on teaching and preaching the Bible, as I have described before.

 

I especially like the Scripture references you mentioned.

(I listed Eph. 5, II Cor. 6, etc.)

?????  But your position is contrary to those Scriptures!  We are not to act as lost people act, and we are not to love what lost people love!

The way I see it NOW: Is that “different music” is appropriate for “different Christians”!

(As long as the said music, is not wicked or sinful or attacking the truth of God’s Word.)

-An innocent song about surfing or having to work for a living or a marriage relationship, that is not promoting wicked behavior, is just fine to enjoy.-

As long as it is Okey with the Lord(FOR YOU).

Whether or not you realize it, this is what you are promoting:

Judges 21:25  In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Those whose vocation is in the musical field will tell you that music has a language all its own.  The lyrics in rock music are SECONDARY to the message of the music itself.  Music speaks – the question is what is the music saying?  Well, we are seeing the AFFECTS of rock music right in front of us, and it is not good.  Forget the lyrics, the music itself is bad!

The idea that “a kind of music”, is inappropriate for every Christian, just doesn’t seem to be Biblical. 

??? How about some Scripture to support this statement! 

 

Well, I hope this is helpful to you.  It is meant in the spirit of kindness!

 

IN Christ,

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Donald - I am fairly busy right now, but I will respond to your earlier post. 

However, in the mean time, since so many of us here find rock music in any form so offensive, could you please put Romans 14 into practice and not put a stumbling stone in front of us?  I am not going to listen to the videos or audios you have posted as I am convinced from my study of Scripture and my understanding of music that rock music is extremely offensive to the Lord.   If you don't agree, that is your prerogative, and you give account to the Lord - not me - for that decision.  In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop filling the thread with music that is offensive to us, and me personally.

 

Can we agree on that?

 

In Christ,

 

Brother please forgive me.

I am very familiar with God’s WARNING in Romans 14, not to cast a stumbling block before your brother; And clearly I did that with you.
(And thank you to the moderators for removing my links.)
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Now, I need to more carefully proceed with this discussion, if it can even be discussed.

I say that because we seem to be at an impasse:
That is, you and I are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT about the “current pop culture”:
It is wicked and ungodly and leading people into Spiritual bondage.

But the Kind of music I have been talking about(and posted), had absolutely nothing to do with pop culture; But I will stop there, so as to not promote it.
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Also, please count the number of question marks(“?”), in all of my posts.
To the best of my knowledge, I have never declared that any kind of music was acceptable.  I have tried to make it very clear, that one of the main purposes of this thread, was for me to “be corrected”, if I am wrong about this question of secular music.

Over and over again, I stated that I didn’t have the answers yet and that any conclusion that I had already come to, was tentative.
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I am not going to deny the possibility that I may be deceiving myself about this issue.

But... asking me to produce Scripture to prove that Secular music isn’t sin, is just like the challenges I received from other sites, to produce Scripture to prove that the King James Bible is God’s Word.  It can’t be done.

What I did do, was produce lots of Scripture warning us about teaching “man made doctrine” as “Bible Doctrine”; this is indeed dangerous.

Although I did appreciate the Scripture references that you gave lme(especially the one in Eph.5), and I did review them; I found them to be talking about personal separation from the unsaved and/or wicked and ungodly practices(“the unfruitful works of darkness” etc.).

Now the reason that none of these Scriptures can be used in this discussion, is because by using them, you “presuppose” that Secular music itself, is sinful and wicked.
(This is the question we are discussing.)
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One more point;
I have asked myself, “why discuss this openly in the first place”?  What good does it do.
But I must also ask the Lord, why He included the 14th chapter in Romans in the Bible?

If.... it was Gods will, that “weak” Christians be “left alone” in their weakness and not brought to the light of a better understanding of the problem of restricting themselves from eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols, or lifting up one day above another, than why did He include these discussions in the epistles to the Romans and the Ephesians?

For sure, I must be careful not to cast a stumbling block before my brother, and although I have been accused of “flaunting” my strength before those who are weaker, this is just an accusation.
“flaunting” (To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: he flaunts his knowledge)

If I have been flaunting anything, it is my concern that I may be wrong, while repeatedly asking for SCRIPTURE that says that secular music is sinful.

The title of this OP is “Promoting strength”, and that is all I intend to do; While being open to any Scriptural arguments, that correct me if I am in error.
--------------------------------------------------
I understand your extended study, to find “the smoking gun” in Scripture, that emphatically declares secular music to be sinful.  But just be careful, not to be trying to use Scripture to justify your preconceived beliefs in this area.

As much as you may not believe it, I am OPEN to the TRUTH about this issue, so that I can correct my own thoughts and practices, before the Lord has to.......
“For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.”
1 Corinthians 11:31


You are my brother in Christ and I love you and hope that this discussion will bear fruit in both of our lives.

Have a good evening
 

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If all secular music is wicked, if all secular music can be viewed as a possible stumbling block, then many IFBs will have to toss out a lot of music and stop singing and listening to many songs they like.

 

If all music is to be filtered by the potential for the song to be a stumbling block to some, there are even many Christian songs, hymns and spiritual songs we will have to cast aside as well.

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If all secular music is wicked, if all secular music can be viewed as a possible stumbling block, then many IFBs will have to toss out a lot of music and stop singing and listening to many songs they like.

 

If all music is to be filtered by the potential for the song to be a stumbling block to some, there are even many Christian songs, hymns and spiritual songs we will have to cast aside as well.

Then so be it...

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II am very familiar with God’s WARNING in Romans 14, not to cast a stumbling block before your brother; And clearly I did that with you.

Brother, I am not personally offended, but I appreciate your apology anyway.  I am more disturbed than offended (Ps. 119:165).

But the Kind of music I have been talking about(and posted), had absolutely nothing to do with pop culture; But I will stop there, so as to not promote it.

What? You posted 3 songs – one was more current, the other 2 were “oldies” but they are indeed part of the “pop culture.”  I don’t know how you can say they are not part of it.  And by posting them, and telling us that you did indeed “like them”, you are indeed promoting them.

This is leadership 101.  As a God-called preacher, you should be aware of the fact that you are responsible for how you lead God’s people BY EXAMPLE as well as by teaching (I Timothy 4:12).  The people you preach will do what you do.  They will rarely – if ever – go beyond your standards, and generally stop short of your standards. 

If you say, I like this song by singer “ABC”, they will take that as a wholesale endorsement of that singer and everything that singer puts out. 

If you say, “I like country music,” They will take that as a blank check to listen to anything they want. 

So as a leader, we do better to err on the side of caution, knowing that our congregation is WATCHING us for clues as to how they ought to live.  If we do something, it is a default permission to them to not only do the same, but only more so. 

But... asking me to produce Scripture to prove that Secular music isn’t sin, is just like the challenges I received from other sites, to produce Scripture to prove that the King James Bible is God’s Word.  It can’t be done.

 What I did do, was produce lots of Scripture warning us about teaching “man made doctrine” as “Bible Doctrine”; this is indeed dangerous.

Three things:

  1. I can produce Scripture to prove that the KJV is God’s Word, but I cannot produce a “smoking gun” verse that specifically states this fact.  A thorough treatment of the subject only leads to one conclusion – the KJV.  The same holds true for music.
  2.  You were the one who said that you “meticulously studied God’s Word.”  I don’t doubt your claim, I just thing you overlooked somethings.  As a man who has pastored 3 churches and has studied God’s word for 25 years, I would think that you would have been able to find time to address this issue.  But you claim that you can’t produce any Scripture regarding the subject of appropriate music for the Christian.  Your claim for studying does not match your claim for no Scripture to support your position on music. 
  3. I have given you Scripture for my position, which addresses the issue both directly AND in principle.  Therefore, your claims that any teaching that a Christian should not listen to any form of rock music is a “man made doctrine” is absolutely false.  Please demonstrate where I have inserted my opinion!

 

 Although I did appreciate the Scripture references that you gave lme(especially the one in Eph.5), and I did review them; I found them to be talking about personal separation from the unsaved and/or wicked and ungodly practices(“the unfruitful works of darkness” etc.).

 Now the reason that none of these Scriptures can be used in this discussion, is because by using them, you “presuppose” that Secular music itself, is sinful and wicked.

Well, yes, the underlying principle we should be operating from in regards to music, particularly secular music, is indeed separation.  We are not to “be…partakers with them.”  By endorsing, purchasing, promoting, etc. we become partakers with them. 

Rock music LEADS to ungodly practices.  Thus there is a principle at stake that tells me to separate from the things that lead to “the unfruitful works of darkness.”

Further, so many of the writers, performers, and producers in the music business are given over to all manner of wickedness, but they know they can’t sell their products if they flaunt their sin TOO much.  Their public presence is designed for one thing – to sell their product.  Make no mistake about it, they have an agenda, and their agenda is not in agreement with the word of God.

--------------------------------------------------

 One more point;

 I have asked myself, “why discuss this openly in the first place”?  What good does it do.

 But I must also ask the Lord, why He included the 14th chapter in Romans in the Bible?

 If.... it was Gods will, that “weak” Christians be “left alone” in their weakness and not brought to the light of a better understanding of the problem of restricting themselves from eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols, or lifting up one day above another, than why did He include these discussions in the epistles to the Romans and the Ephesians?

This is a difficult subject.  First, I don’t think that Paul is insinuating that a person who does not eat meat offered to an idol is a weak Christian across the board, but rather that this Christian has a weakness in that particular area.  Further, all Christians are commanded to grow in grace and in knowledge.  So it is not that these Christians are stagnant, but as you mentioned in an earlier post, maybe their past experiences have created some weaknesses in their lives that they feel obliged to insulate themselves from.   I believe this is the idea Paul is expressing. 

Therefore, when somebody who does not have this same weakness comes across somebody who does, he should not make any assumptions about that person, neither should he attempt to persuade him otherwise.  Teaching about our liberty in Christ is one thing, since we are not under the Law.  Encouraging a brother in Christ to act in a manner that defiles their own conscience, and in a manner that is not after FAITH, will indeed lead them into sin.  Maybe it would not be sin for “the stronger” Christian, but Romans 14 teaches that it would be a “sin” for the weaker Christian to violate his own conscience.

If I have been flaunting anything, it is my concern that I may be wrong, while repeatedly asking for SCRIPTURE that says that secular music is sinful.

Well that depends on how you define “secular.”  What exactly are you lumping into that broad category?  I assumed rock music because of the statements you made earlier, and the videos you linked. 

But the reality is that you are indeed looking for the “smoking gun” verse (i.e. “Thou shalt not…”), while I am providing solid Scriptural PRINCIPLES that will help us make our decisions.  I have also encouraged a thorough examination of Scripture on the subject of music, as well as increasing your own personal knowledge of music in general by reading outside sources.  These sources will give you more insight into the subject.

 The title of this OP is “Promoting strength”, and that is all I intend to do; While being open to any Scriptural arguments, that correct me if I am in error.

You are in error, but you have failed to make the connection between general principles and how they apply to specific situations.  Example: Ephesians 5 and II Cor. 6 deal with the general principle of separation from worldliness, sin, and evil.  Your job now is to take that principle and apply it to secular music.

I understand your extended study, to find “the smoking gun” in Scripture, that emphatically declares secular music to be sinful.  But just be careful, not to be trying to use Scripture to justify your preconceived beliefs in this area.

You misunderstand me.  I am not searching for any “smoking gun.”  I do not believe in that method of study.  In fact, I believe anyone looking for a “smoking gun” is lazy.  My position is that we should do a thorough examination of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation on this subject, and draw our conclusions from that.  We should examine music in the Bible from every possible angle, in every detail, informing ourselves as to the nature of all forms of music, when they were produced, how they were produced, by whom they were produced, and the overall affects that music has/had on people in general. 

I could go on about the approach to study, and other things that I believe should be considered in this study, but I hope you can begin to see my point.  No smoking guns – thorough, independent study, starting with the basic principles of separation, holiness, righteousness, Spirit-filled living, denying our fleshly desires, and being a humble servant of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.   Then we build on THAT foundation so that we can understand what we should be believe and do concerning particular issues (i.e. music.) 

 As much as you may not believe it, I am OPEN to the TRUTH about this issue, so that I can correct my own thoughts and practices, before the Lord has to.......

I believe you brother!  I have done my best to patient with you, and not attack you personally, or be mean-spirited toward you.  I sense your sincerity, and have attempted to respond in kind!

 You are my brother in Christ and I love you and hope that this discussion will bear fruit in both of our lives.

Amen!

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I know he didn't mean no harm by it, but that first song has been in my head since this thread started!   :sick:

I have so many songs in my head it's like an oversized jukebox in there! It's amazing that if I'm somewhere and I hear a tune I can instantly tell you the name of the song, who sang it and often when it came out. If I can hear the words I can most often sing right along with the song if I wanted to. This is true of songs I've not even heard in 30 or 40 years.

 

Then sometimes an old song will just pop into my mind and start "playing" for no known reason. Early this mowing season the old song "Little Willy" kept playing in my mind when I was mowing.

 

Then sometimes that old Burger King commercial will start up (hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us).

 

Amazing how music and songs stay in our minds and recall from time to time.

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Hello Steve

You said.......
This is leadership 101.  As a God-called preacher, you should be aware of the fact that you are responsible for how you lead God’s people BY EXAMPLE as well as by teaching (I Timothy 4:12).  The people you preach will do what you do.  They will rarely – if ever – go beyond your standards, and generally stop short of your standards.

Praise the Lord, I have been aware that others will(and have), followed my examples; Therefore I have been very careful to always be a “Godly” example to everyone I come in contact with. One of the examples that I have made sure to practice is avoiding the trap of legalism that seems to run through the IFB community.
I am glad you brought up “standards”, because this is one of the watchwords of this error.  For sure “standards” are important; I recently was able to set up a booth during a special day at a local college, where I have been ministering; And the Lord wonderfully blessed my ministry at this event.  One of the ways I ministered was by posting banners on the wall beside my table; One of these banners said....
“You can face the challenge, of “Respecting diversity” while holding strong to “your” Biblical standards!”
The point that I am making here, is that there is a GREAT DIFFERENCE between “Biblical Standards” and “Man-made standards”.  Biblical Standards are based on “Biblical sound doctrine”(teachings that have a solid foundation in God’s Word).  While “man-made standards”, are based upon perceived dangers or infractions.
Also, I do not want anyone that follows my example, to “GO BEYOND” the Biblical Standards that I exemplify; Because this would mean going beyond Biblically Sound Doctrine.
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Next you said.....
“If you say, I like this song by singer “ABC”, they will take that as a wholesale endorsement of that singer and everything that singer puts out.
If you say, “I like country music,” They will take that as a blank check to listen to anything they want.
So as a leader, we do better to err on the side of caution, knowing that our congregation is WATCHING us for clues as to how they ought to live.  If we do something, it is a default permission to them to not only do the same, but only more so.”


I have never(from behind a pulpit), stated that I liked any singer or song or genre; Although I may have pointed out the shortcomings of contemporary Christian music.

That being said, I have made it clear that I am not the Holy Spirit and that I am not God’s thought police, set up by Him to tell anybody what to do or not to do(With the exception of always warning people against sin in any of it’s forms).
When God set pastors as “examples to the flock”, these are examples of Godliness and personal commitment to the Lord and His Word.  By the way, Godliness is not measured your opinion of my music choices, but by the dictates of God’s Holy Word!
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Your challenge to me........
“But you claim that you can’t produce any Scripture regarding the subject of appropriate music for the Christian.  Your claim for studying does not match your claim for no Scripture to support your position on music.
    I have given you Scripture for my position, which addresses the issue both directly AND in principle.  Therefore, your claims that any teaching that a Christian should not listen to any form of rock music is a “man made doctrine” is absolutely false.  Please demonstrate where I have inserted my opinion!”


In post #32 in this thread you said.......
“Those whose vocation is in the musical field will tell you that music has a language all its own.  The lyrics in rock music are SECONDARY to the message of the music itself.  Music speaks – the question is what is the music saying?  Well, we are seeing the AFFECTS of rock music right in front of us, and it is not good.  Forget the lyrics, the music itself is bad!”

You didn’t only say that you personally didn’t like this music, but you condemned it as “bad”!
(And you didn’t base this on any Scripture, but on testimonials of those in the field.)
You further said that “Music speaks”(in some mystical way).  Then you blamed all the ills of today’s society on rock music.  This is inserting your opinion into this discussion.

The Bible says.......
Colossians 2:20-23
V.20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
V.21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
V.22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
V.23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


You are teaching that a kind of music, should not be touched or tasted(or listened to), because it has some mysterious power over us, that can hurt our walk with the Lord!
If this is true, show me some Scripture.

Now, in my study of music in the Bible, I have found that “Godly music” does have a wonderfully beneficial effect upon believers.  But to assume the opposite to be true, is pure conjecture.
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Finally you said something I can sink my teeth into....
“Well, yes, the underlying principle we should be operating from in regards to music, particularly secular music, is indeed separation.  We are not to “be…partakers with them.”  By endorsing, purchasing, promoting, etc. we become partakers with them.”

This was the other shoe(to be dropped), that I was waiting for.
I agree that “promoting” UNGODLY secular music(of any kind), does cross the line of separation; Therefore I never “Endorse” or “purchase” or “promote” UNGODLY music.
(I never buy any music of any kind; We don’t have to with the internet)

Anything that is clearly UNGODLY, should be shunned and preached against; And when something’s UNGODLY character is obscured, we need to shine the light of the truth of God’s Word on it as an example of Satan’s methods of deception.

Note: The example of my postings of music in this thread, could be considered endorsing these songs; And that’s just fine, because none of these songs are WICKED or SINFUL or UNGODLY(in themselves), at all.  In fact, they were posted as an example of how blanket attacks upon secular music are nothing but hot air.
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Another of your opinions posted.......
“Rock music LEADS to ungodly practices.  Thus there is a principle at stake that tells me to separate from the things that lead to “the unfruitful works of darkness.”
Further, so many of the writers, performers, and producers in the music business are given over to all manner of wickedness, but they know they can’t sell their products if they flaunt their sin TOO much.  Their public presence is designed for one thing – to sell their product.  Make no mistake about it, they have an agenda, and their agenda is not in agreement with the word of God.”


Although I agree that some rock music concerts and events have led to ungodly practices; This thread is about “Preaching” that “all rock music” is evil.
But messages from a Churches pulpit, should be from the Bible’s Sound application to sin and sinful practices.
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I have only one thing to say about your next statements........
“This is a difficult subject.  First, I don’t think that Paul is insinuating that a person who does not eat meat offered to an idol is a weak Christian across the board, but rather that this Christian has a weakness in that particular area.  Further, all Christians are commanded to grow in grace and in knowledge.  So it is not that these Christians are stagnant, but as you mentioned in an earlier post, maybe their past experiences have created some weaknesses in their lives that they feel obliged to insulate themselves from.   I believe this is the idea Paul is expressing.

Therefore, when somebody who does not have this same weakness comes across somebody who does, he should not make any assumptions about that person, neither should he attempt to persuade him otherwise.  Teaching about our liberty in Christ is one thing, since we are not under the Law.  Encouraging a brother in Christ to act in a manner that defiles their own conscience, and in a manner that is not after FAITH, will indeed lead them into sin.  Maybe it would not be sin for “the stronger” Christian, but Romans 14 teaches that it would be a “sin” for the weaker Christian to violate his own conscience.”


Amen and Amen
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You also said.......
Well that depends on how you define “secular.”  What exactly are you lumping into that broad category?  I assumed rock music because of the statements you made earlier, and the videos you linked.
But the reality is that you are indeed looking for the “smoking gun” verse (i.e. “Thou shalt not…”), while I am providing solid Scriptural PRINCIPLES that will help us make our decisions.  I have also encouraged a thorough examination of Scripture on the subject of music, as well as increasing your own personal knowledge of music in general by reading outside sources.  These sources will give you more insight into the subject.


Using “Principles” in place of “Scripture”, can be a dangerous thing.  For sure, the Bible teaches principles; But they should all be NAILED DOWN to specific Scriptures.  When they can’t be, they should be treated as a work in progress and not preached on at all.
You have stated that your study of music in the Bible, is a “work in progress”; When you are finished, please let me know what you find out.  But until then, you should be open to the possibility that you may have “gone to seed” on this subject of rock music.
I don’t love rock music; Although I have recently been informed that some of the music that I “like” is considered Rock, because it has a “back beat”.  I am not sure what that has to do with anything, but if someone can show me some Scripture about the evils of percussion instruments in music, I would appreciate it.
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A statement of your opinion......
You are in error, but you have failed to make the connection between general principles and how they apply to specific situations.  Example: Ephesians 5 and II Cor. 6 deal with the general principle of separation from worldliness, sin, and evil.  Your job now is to take that principle and apply it to secular music.

It is your opinion that I am in error, because I have failed to make the same connections that you have made.  And you said that my job now, is to try find the same connections for myself.
Well, although I am always hoping to “grow” in my understanding of myself and the world around me; My constant #1 job, is to stay in the center of God’s will by daily exposing myself to His Holy Word, which teaches me about Him.
Today, this job took me to Colossians 2:, and once again, God was warning me about the error of calling things sin, that aren’t sin.


I have got to go.  Have a GREAT day!
 

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-THE PROBLEM THAT WAS BEING ADDRESSED-
This thread started out addressing a problem and it disintegrated into a thread about rock music.  This was partially my fault for allowing it to go in that direction, but it needs to be put back on track.

The problem being discussed here, is the production “weak Christians”.  Christians that don’t know their Bible and are being led around by the nose, so that they aren’t forced to grow up in Christ.

Clearly this is a real problem, because of the strong opposition I have received by addressing it.......
1 Corinthians 16:9
“For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and [there are] many adversaries.”


Now, I know that the opposition that Paul was talking about here was opposition to the Gospel; But there is also real opposition to “Bible truth”, intended to encourage people to grow up in Christ.......
Ephesians 4:14
“That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”


If Satan can’t get a Christian to fall into sin and backslide, he will trick that Christian into majoring on minor things.
So lets get back on track.
------------------------
In my OP, I stated that “pastors promote weakness” in there congregations, by getting away from the pure Word of God and micro-managing their people’s lives.
Just as Christians need to be taught to “feed themselves” Spiritually; They also need to be taught the discernment needed to live healthy productive lives for Christ.

Now this is not a problem at all with the liberal preacher; Because he is too busy watering down sin to preach against it.
But it is a big problem with many IFB preachers, because although they want everyone to live Godly lives, they sometimes take the wrong path to get there.

By the way, the WRONG PATH, is trying to be the Holy Spirit for other people.  Two of the biggest ways, that a Christian learns to grow in Christ and live a Godly life,....
(1) Is by learning that God’s Word is the bottom line.
(2) That the LORD Himself wants to teach them from His Word.....
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”


This verse(and others like it), teach a wonderful truth.  That is, that we don’t need other people, to tell us what we should be doing; All we need, is to learn to listen to the Lord more closely.

The BIBLE TEACHES ME, that God’s Holy Spirit within my heart, WILL DIRECT ME into all truth.  And that I can TRUST HIM, to keep me on “HIS STRAIGHT AND NARROW PATH”.

Anyone who even hints that Christians can’t trust the Lord to guide them, is “Promoting weakness” in others.
 

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1.  You derailed your own thread by introducing music, and even posting videos, proclaiming that those songs were acceptable for the Christian....

 

But, moving on from that particular issue....

 

2.  I can agree with what you are saying here Donald.  and I think you have misjudged me because of my responses toward music. 

I believe that each Christian gives account to the LORD, and not to me.  But I also give an account to the Lord, not only for how I live and serve Him, but also for how I preach, teach, and lead the congregation He has entrusted to me.  I believe it is my responsibility to search the Scriptures, preach the "whole counsel of God," warn against sin and danger, encourage to live a HOLY LIFE (II Cor. 7:1), and serve Jesus Christ faithfully.  I don't have any "list" to follow - just the Bible.  While our church does believe in church discipline in accordance with Matthew 18 and I Cor. 5-6, I believe those instances are the extreme, and to be avoided if possible. 

I say all of that to say this:  I do believe rock music is evil in ANY form, and I preach against it passionately.  However, each person will have to give an account to God for what they listen to - I don't "check" on any members for what they listen to....I do believe in liberty in Christ.   If they choose to listen to that garbage, then they will not be able to do so without a stern warning from the pulpit, and gentle encouragement to drop it in personal conversation.  They will reap what they sow, but that is between them and God.  I fulfilled my responsibility by showing them from Scripture what the Bible says about music, and preaching, warning, counseling against it.

 

Therefore, what you said in your last post is correct.  I just think the Bible is much clearer than you do on some subjects.  And my conclusions are not based on subjective opinions, but rather on a lifetime of study, learning, observing, searching, asking questions, pursuing new information. 

When I said earlier that my study on music is a "work in progress" I did not mean to imply that I had just now only STARTED studying the subject, but rather that I have begun COMPILING all of my sources, and organizing my CONCLUSIONS into something that can be useful for our church members and beyond.  It is a massive amount of material, and it will take years to put it all together.  However, I can demonstrate from Scripture what God intends music to be used for, how evil music affects a person, and how music can be used for wicked purposes.  We can then apply those principles FROM SCRIPTURE to our current pop culture, and see the fruit of what pop music produces, and take a clear stand on it.

 

That same approach can be used for alcohol, TV, movies, reading material, Christian Dress, overall conduct, dispensationalism, calvinism, and any other subject you might want to introduce.  I use music as an example because you brought it up, but the same principles apply to EVERY topic.

 

I agree that too many preachers handicap their congregations by telling them what to believe without ever explaining WHY and HOW.  Their answers are too simplistic, and will not withstand the scrutiny of an inquiring person.  Our congregations should be able to handle objections from the skeptics, cults, and other misguided Christians.  They should not only know WHAT they believe, but WHY they believe it, and WHERE it is in the Bible.  (HINT: No silver bullets!  Isa. 28:9-11: here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.  I am suspicious of "proof-texting"!) 

Therefore, my own personal method of teaching and preaching is slow, methodical, thorough, verse-by-verse.  I attempt to anticipate and answer "questions" from the critics so that our congregation will know what type of objections they can expect to encounter, and how to handle them.

Of course, I also highly encourage personal Bible reading, study, and prayer, without which no Christian can grow.  It is plainly obvious who is studying and who isn't.  Those who don't read and study never grow, while those who do grow dramatically. 

 

I agree that we should encourage our congregations to trust in the Lord for guidance, wisdom, etc., but God did give "pastors and teachers" as a gift to the church (Eph. 4:8-13) so that they would be cast out to sea with no anchor.  Pastors are to feed the flock, lead them, teach them, guide them.  But they are to grow and learn how to study, pray, and learn on their own as well.   It is not that the pastor teaches them NOTHING because, well, they don't need a man to teach them.  The Bible teaches clearly in Eph. 4 that they DO need a teacher, but also that they should grow in their own personal lives....we just have to balance both passages out.  We cannot deny EITHER passage, but seek to harmonize them.

 

Hopefully this helps you gain better insight into my own position and practices.

In Christ,

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1.  You derailed your own thread by introducing music, and even posting videos, proclaiming that those songs were acceptable for the Christian....

 

But, moving on from that particular issue....

 

2.  I can agree with what you are saying here Donald.  and I think you have misjudged me because of my responses toward music. 

I believe that each Christian gives account to the LORD, and not to me.  But I also give an account to the Lord, not only for how I live and serve Him, but also for how I preach, teach, and lead the congregation He has entrusted to me.  I believe it is my responsibility to search the Scriptures, preach the "whole counsel of God," warn against sin and danger, encourage to live a HOLY LIFE (II Cor. 7:1), and serve Jesus Christ faithfully.  I don't have any "list" to follow - just the Bible.  While our church does believe in church discipline in accordance with Matthew 18 and I Cor. 5-6, I believe those instances are the extreme, and to be avoided if possible. 

I say all of that to say this:  I do believe rock music is evil in ANY form, and I preach against it passionately.  However, each person will have to give an account to God for what they listen to - I don't "check" on any members for what they listen to....I do believe in liberty in Christ.   If they choose to listen to that garbage, then they will not be able to do so without a stern warning from the pulpit, and gentle encouragement to drop it in personal conversation.  They will reap what they sow, but that is between them and God.  I fulfilled my responsibility by showing them from Scripture what the Bible says about music, and preaching, warning, counseling against it.

 

Therefore, what you said in your last post is correct.  I just think the Bible is much clearer than you do on some subjects.  And my conclusions are not based on subjective opinions, but rather on a lifetime of study, learning, observing, searching, asking questions, pursuing new information. 

When I said earlier that my study on music is a "work in progress" I did not mean to imply that I had just now only STARTED studying the subject, but rather that I have begun COMPILING all of my sources, and organizing my CONCLUSIONS into something that can be useful for our church members and beyond.  It is a massive amount of material, and it will take years to put it all together.  However, I can demonstrate from Scripture what God intends music to be used for, how evil music affects a person, and how music can be used for wicked purposes.  We can then apply those principles FROM SCRIPTURE to our current pop culture, and see the fruit of what pop music produces, and take a clear stand on it.

 

That same approach can be used for alcohol, TV, movies, reading material, Christian Dress, overall conduct, dispensationalism, calvinism, and any other subject you might want to introduce.  I use music as an example because you brought it up, but the same principles apply to EVERY topic.

 

I agree that too many preachers handicap their congregations by telling them what to believe without ever explaining WHY and HOW.  Their answers are too simplistic, and will not withstand the scrutiny of an inquiring person.  Our congregations should be able to handle objections from the skeptics, cults, and other misguided Christians.  They should not only know WHAT they believe, but WHY they believe it, and WHERE it is in the Bible.  (HINT: No silver bullets!  Isa. 28:9-11: here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.  I am suspicious of "proof-texting"!) 

Therefore, my own personal method of teaching and preaching is slow, methodical, thorough, verse-by-verse.  I attempt to anticipate and answer "questions" from the critics so that our congregation will know what type of objections they can expect to encounter, and how to handle them.

Of course, I also highly encourage personal Bible reading, study, and prayer, without which no Christian can grow.  It is plainly obvious who is studying and who isn't.  Those who don't read and study never grow, while those who do grow dramatically. 

 

I agree that we should encourage our congregations to trust in the Lord for guidance, wisdom, etc., but God did give "pastors and teachers" as a gift to the church (Eph. 4:8-13) so that they would be cast out to sea with no anchor.  Pastors are to feed the flock, lead them, teach them, guide them.  But they are to grow and learn how to study, pray, and learn on their own as well.   It is not that the pastor teaches them NOTHING because, well, they don't need a man to teach them.  The Bible teaches clearly in Eph. 4 that they DO need a teacher, but also that they should grow in their own personal lives....we just have to balance both passages out.  We cannot deny EITHER passage, but seek to harmonize them.

 

Hopefully this helps you gain better insight into my own position and practices.

In Christ,

 

It does.  Thanks

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