Jump to content
Online Baptist Community
  • Newest Sermon Entry

    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Pastor’S Salary Cap


The Glory Land

Recommended Posts

  • Members

I have had the senior pastorate in two separate Churches over an eight year span. Not once did I require a salary. Matter of fact, a salary was suggested in my first congregation and I refused it because the Word of God states the pastor should work.

How many members did I have. At one time nearly 160. That is, until I found out that one member was living with a man outside of marriage. This member wanted to sing a solo practically every service. Her favorite song to sing? "Victory in Jesus"

When I told her I could not allow her to stand behind the pulpit and sing, knowing her lifestyle, she got mad and left the Church. Nearly half the Church left with her. Apparently, they liked her singing better than the truth.

*edited to add: In those eight years, I did receive love offerings when the congregation offered them... but no salary as it is unBiblical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 131
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

What was Timothy's profession? What did Paul do when he was not able to do tentmaking? You realize he only did tentmaking while he was at ONE church for several years, right?

I have no problem with you feeling called of God not to accept a salary. But you stating that pastor's are unBiblical if they accept a salary is unBiblical in and of itself, I'm sorry to say. You are basing an entire doctrine on what Paul did for a few short years. He was not always able to work, and when he wasn't working an "outside job", the church was taking care of him.

Churches have different methods of "taking care" of a pastor. Whether you want to call it a "salary" or "regular planned love offerings" the end result is the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

As to what type of work I did, I worked several jobs as the doors were opened.  I have worked with asphalt companies,androofing companies early on, and computer manufacturing and sales with CYC, Inc. of Greensboro, NC  two years of my second pastorate and an additional two years following that pastorate..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Where does the Bible say that Paul only worked as a tentmaker once?  Historical and Biblical research will tell you that that can't be true.  Paul said if one does not work, he should not eat.  Do you really believe Paul would not have practiced what he preached? 

Paul said he worked to support himself and those in his company.  He said he did this as an example, showing that so laboring the Elders also should work to provide for others.  To say a pastor should not work a secular job is contrary to the clear instruction in the Word of God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Some Pastors are under paid and some are overpaid. How and what standers should be considered, how many members the church haves. How can you stop a Pastor demanding more money every year, or he himself getting a raise.  I am the Boss?    :boxing:

Well, brother, you are correct.  Some ARE overpaid.  They have a nice comfortable salary, plus housing, car, clothing, free babysitting, cell phone, and just about anything else they want.  When you add in all the extra's, some of these guys are making well over 100K a year, when many in their congregation are struggling to make ends meet.  I know the ministry is work - but sometimes the salaries and perks get out of hand.

Some ARE underpaid.  Sometimes the church gets stingy with the preacher.  They don't realize how much work, energy, effort it takes to lead the church.  Especially when you consider that the most important work the pastor does is study and pray (Acts 6).  The sad thing is that they don't seem to realize that the people they are hurting the most is NOT the pastor and his family, but rather the congregation itself.  The church cannot grow properly if the pastor cannot lead them effectively, nor can the church grow properly if they do not act IN FAITH, and provide proper maintenance for their pastor.

 

The problem I believe is that the congregation

themselves to be misled by the pastors (scenario #1) or the elders (deacons or whomever - scenario #2).  I hesitate to assign motive to scenario #1, even though it would be easy to say it is greediness - sometimes it is not greed, simply naivete about the conditions of their congregation. 

Scenario #2 is power and control - plain and simple - as well as disobedience to Scripture.

 

The solution? HA!  I don't think there is one.  Of course the congregation can always vote NO on the raises, or modify the raise, or something - but then that sends bad signals to the pastor. 

 

I agree with what someone else said earlier - the church should determine what the salary should be based upon church income, membership, and the liveable wages in that area.  If it is a small church, the pastor should be the #1 expense until they can afford to pay him full time and get their own building. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I think the most important Scriptural fact to consider in this whole equation is that the church that had the MOST problems in the NT (Corinth) was coincidentally the same place where Paul refused to take any "salary" from that church, and instead "made tents." 

 

If SFIC insists upon misinterpreting the Acts 20:34-35 passage (making "labor" secular work instead of the labor of the ministry), then the result is the same.  Ephesus became a "dead church" in Revelation 2 who kept serving, but lost their love for Christ.  Again, if you are correct, I wonder if there is not a correlation between Paul's divided interests (secular work distracting him from the work of the ministry) and the outcome of it (a church with no love for Christ.)

 

HHHHMMMMM - could there be a connection?

 

I know from having to work a secular job also that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to do ANYTHING properly when you are pastoring and working.  The man cannot properly take care of the needs of his family (time and emotional needs, etc.), he cannot properly take care of the needs of the church through prayer and study, and he is not always available to help them in their times of distress.  They are SHEEP - not cattle - and as such need much time, comfort, and counsel.

Further, he does not have time or money to properly maintain his vehicles or house, or take vacations, or do all the things everyone else in his church does. 

I am not complaining - I am simply trying to press the realities home.  And eventually, the pastor ends up completely burned out, and has to either stop working the secular job, or stop pastoring.   Some people do have physical limitations, and can only go so long burning the candle at both ends (and in the middle!)

 

In the end EVERYONE LOSES - the church, the pastor, and the pastor's family.

Therefore, it is in everyone's best interest to provide as much maintenance for the pastor as possible (for the small church), and a reasonable income for the larger churches (not an outrageous income with perks.)

 

I Corinthians 9, I Timothy 5:17-18 seem to be the key passages - in my opinion.

 

IN Christ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

This topic is going to irritate me, since we basically live paycheck to paycheck AND I have to work a job to help make ends meet.

We have four kids and live in a parsonage and have our utilities paid, plus a salary, but the salary is definitely low enough to qualify for food stamps (although we are not on food stamps). We pay our own cell phone and most of our own gas, and bought our own cars, and pay for our own internet, etc. We also pay for Christian school.

If a church can pay a pastor enough to have a savings account and a retirement and live as comfortable as his people, then more power to that church. Amen. AMEN!!!!!

And to those who think pastors do not work to earn their salary....well I am going to leave the topic before I blow up on that one.

Honestly and frankly, what I wouldn't give some days for my husband and myself to be OUT of the ministry. Perks? Choose a church of your own choosing. Choose the ministries you are comfy with. And find a job that pays you enough to support your family that matches your talents and skills. But we are IN the ministry because God called us....and when people say things like "Pastors should work" or "Pastors are overpaid" it just makes me ANGRY.

I had my sister in law who makes six figures a year tell me it must be nice that I have a free house and utilities paid. REALLY? She'd really like to live in my parsonage from 1940 that needs tons of work that nobody can afford to do right now? She'd really like to have my bank account with little more than $100-$200 in it at any one given time?

Yeah. People who grudge pastors and their families for the sacrifices they make REALLY get me annoyed. And I'm cranky today so that makes it worse. hahaha.

I will say God provides for us and I'm thankful for it. But most people who criticize pastors would NEVER want to trade places with their family if they had to walk in their shoes and in their budget for a month. Nope.

(Oh, and yes, we generously give to our church as a good example...most likely we give a larger percentage of our income than anyone in the church, although we have never looked at the record books to find out.)

God bless you and your husband as you labor for the Lord.  THere are many others just like you (for instance ME!!!) in the same position.  Thank God for the Grace He gives to carry on the work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm not misinterpreting Scripture at all Steve. 

It is obviously you who are either misinterpreting Scripture, or just ignoring its instruction altogether. 

*edited to add: Matter of fact, since Revelation does not say that Ephesus became a "dead" church, I know it is you who is doing the "misinterpreting."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

StandingFIrm, the main issue here is that you, somehow, do not consider the Pastor's work as "work". Maybe you did not work as a pastor, but the pastors who I know, they do work. And the larger the ministry, the more hours they work. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest problems in ministry is that the pastor sometimes works SO many hours for the church that he neglects his family!

So I cannot understand where you get your idea of being a pastor doesn't count as "work". "Not working" means "being idle" and while I'm sure there are some idle pastors out there, I wasn't aware this thread was referring to any.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I wanted to add that I don't know any IFB churches that give the pastor an "outrageous" income. I think a "comfortable" income is more than fair for an older, experienced, educated, godly man. As far as an IFB pastor who is "rich"....I may only know a few, and in general they are rich because they are pastors and also presidents of Bible colleges. But as far as just regular old churches...unless the actual church is full of rich people (in which case no fair making the pastor a pauper)....I think an "overpaid pastor" is more often a straw man than not.

To me an "overpaid" pastor are like those tv ministries and scam ministries...but to me those don't count because I thought we were talking about IFB ministries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I have had the senior pastorate in two separate Churches over an eight year span. Not once did I require a salary. Matter of fact, a salary was suggested in my first congregation and I refused it because the Word of God states the pastor should work.

How many members did I have. At one time nearly 160. That is, until I found out that one member was living with a man outside of marriage. This member wanted to sing a solo practically every service. Her favorite song to sing? "Victory in Jesus"

When I told her I could not allow her to stand behind the pulpit and sing, knowing her lifestyle, she got mad and left the Church. Nearly half the Church left with her. Apparently, they liked her singing better than the truth.

*edited to add: In those eight years, I did receive love offerings when the congregation offered them... but no salary as it is unBiblical.

 

Sorry guy but I don't buy this for a second. Sure, you may have been the leader of a handful of splinter families you duped away from a solid church to start one in a garage somewhere that fizzled. No doubt over your outward rebellion to a real pastor's salary or tithing (lets face it, the real issue is just not giving at all) or babies in hell or some other whacky idea you think you originally got Divine insight to, to undermine a ministry.

 

Anybody can work a secular job, that takes no faith at all. God's men and families have no social or union safeguards whatsoever and are truly dependent on the Lord to provide and it is every congregation's charge to obey the Lord and take care of those men and their families period. That is what the Word says, not your made up nonsense. Every single true pastor you have ever met was sent by other churches so your "stationary" misinterpretations that you claim as doctrine are just as wrong as your other misinterpretations.

For the record, causing a church split over vain babbling does not count as "being sent" so you are right about not receiving a salary yourself.

 

Besides, haven't you claimed to be disabled to receive government checks. That don't even take work much less faith so why are you even talking on this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Sure guy, the issue is you ignore the Scripture folks provide cause you have to be right in your wrongs every time regardless. Look inside yourself clearly and then you will see the problem. I call myself wretched cause I know who I am.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I left a church because I didn't feel the pastor's heart was in it.  We had an evangelist come in and do a financial "revival".  During it, he mentioned that we did not pay our pastor enough.  After he left, the trustees made motion to give our pastor a $600.00 a month raise. (If it was a 40 hour work week that would be equivalent to $3.75 an hour raise, WOW)  A little more than a month later, our pastor put finances on the church prayer list and asked us to pray for at least 2 more tithing families to join because we were not hitting budget. 

 

Facts:  the pastor has a wife and 3 kids.  The kids were home-schooled.  The pastor now owns 3 or 4 houses for rental income.  He bought a small, one-man business that employs himself.  I asked him why he needed the business and the houses, and he said he had to provide for his wife if anything should happen to him (this was also counsel from the evangelist).  I talked to him for about 2 minutes about how HE had to do this and HE had to do that.  God never came up once during the conversation.  I actually asked him what his 3 sons would do if he passed and left his wife alone.  Wouldn't they help their mom out?  He looked so shocked at me for asking that question and said it was NOT his kids responsibility to provide for their mother, but it is the parents responsibility period!  That pretty much ended our conversation about his need to work extra and buy up houses.  And now the kids are in private school and mom has a part-time job too. 

 

Sounds like he set up the financial "revival" trying to bring shame on the members of that church.

 

It should have been just a plain revival, leaving off the financial part. If the heart is right in the church members, & the pastors is feeding the flock properly, everything will fall in place.

 

Yet it sounds like that man trusted in money, & had lack of faith in God to provide.

 

When reading your post I thought about this devotional by Spurgeon I read recently in my Sword Searcher, the pastor you spoke of sounds much like the ones that Spurgeon's was referring to.

 

Spurgeon's Morning and Evening Devotional
Jeremiah 51:51
08/18/AM
"Strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the Lord's house." 
--Jeremiah 51:51
In this account the faces of the Lord's people were covered with shame, for it was a terrible thing that men should intrude into the Holy Place reserved for the priests alone. Everywhere about us we see like cause for sorrow. How many ungodly men are now educating with the view of entering into the ministry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I'm not misinterpreting Scripture at all Steve. 

It is obviously you who are either misinterpreting Scripture, or just ignoring its instruction altogether. 

*edited to add: Matter of fact, since Revelation does not say that Ephesus became a "dead" church, I know it is you who is doing the "misinterpreting."

:ROFL:  :laff cry:  :nuts:  :lfpop:

 

(PS - I used the term "dead" not as a QUOTE but as a DESCRIPTION, for what is a church that has lost its love for Christ?)

 

(And this from the guy who thinks Melchisedek was a pagan, idolatrous priest!!!!)

 

 

 

:beatdeadhorse:

 

We have been over all of this ground multiple times - and the Scriptures have been given.  It is clear that SFIC has an axe to grind over money matters for what ever diabolical reason.  Clearly his understanding of Scripture is highly inaccurate on the subject of tithing and supporting of pastors, and CLEARLY nobody here will be able to convince him otherwise....thus my posts are not directed at him, but more for edifying the others.

 

:wave:

 

In Christ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I wanted to add that I don't know any IFB churches that give the pastor an "outrageous" income. I think a "comfortable" income is more than fair for an older, experienced, educated, godly man. As far as an IFB pastor who is "rich"....I may only know a few, and in general they are rich because they are pastors and also presidents of Bible colleges. But as far as just regular old churches...unless the actual church is full of rich people (in which case no fair making the pastor a pauper)....I think an "overpaid pastor" is more often a straw man than not.

To me an "overpaid" pastor are like those tv ministries and scam ministries...but to me those don't count because I thought we were talking about IFB ministries.

I know of a church where the Pastor's salary + perks adds up easily to near 100K per year, but the same guy demands that any new "staff" who go "full time" take a 12K salary.  A lot of inequity there.  There were certainly SOME wealthy people in the church, but only a handful - the rest of us were struggling to make ends meet.  I know of several families that had several children, and it was all they could do to put food on the table and pay their rent and utilities. 

I consider it outrageous because I don't really think the Pastor understood the value of all the perks he had - He used church members to babysit his kids, but didn't pay them.  He used members to do many things without paying them.  The church bought his vehicles (2), gave him a housing allowance and actually bought a huge house for him complete with indoor swimming pool, gave him a clothing allowance (??? - who gets a clothing allowance anyway!), cell phones, etc., etc., etc., while his staff members were literally living in poverty on church property,driving jalopes. 

Furthermore, the emotional manipulation to wring money out of people for everything was deplorable - but again, I believe this particular man was simply doing what he was taught to do naively - most unfortunate indeed!

I don't think this particular pastor was greedy - just clueless.  Basically his "salary" was "icing on the cake" because the church paid for everything else he had, needed or wanted, so his salary was money in the bank - to the tune of 60K a year. 

In my view, that was over the top.  Not the salary as much as everything else the church did for him -especially considering the median income of the church. 

I will give him credit for being a hard worker though - he was definitely not a slouch.  He was an avid soul-winner, and very busy. 

 

I have always been of the opinion that a Pastor is better to take LESS than MORE for testimony's sake - to prevent any false accusations about "being in it for the money."  In this case, 60K was a livable salary for that area - a comfortable salary, as you say.   All the other perks were just too much, in my view.

 

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

 

Hopefully that clarifies things for you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Steve, thanks for your post....I'm not in the position to judge that pastor but what you describe may sound a bit much. I knew a similar pastor and he ended up being found to be stealing money from the church. However if your pastor that you mentioned is a hard worker and the church volunteered those things....more power to them.

I just get tired of the idea that a pastors finances seem to be up for public scrutiny so I tend to defend before I criticize. I figure the laborer is worthy of his hire, and God will deal with a greedy pastor. Some pastors also may give more back to the church than you would ever know, so that his salary may look like more on paper than it really is due to his giving practices. I figure the benefit of the doubt is best, let God deal with the rest.

A small example of the benefit of the doubt.....a nice lady in our church who doesn't have a lot of money came in recently with a brand new Coach bag. I complimented her on it and she quickly explained that it was a gift from a family member. But how many people would rather gossip about her having a $300 handbag rather than being thankful God blessed her with it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Napsterdad earned a badge
      Thumb's Up
    • Napsterdad earned a badge
      Reacting Well
    • Napsterdad earned a badge
      First Post
    • StandInTheGap earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • Mark C went up a rank
      Rookie
  • Tell a friend

    Love Online Baptist Community? Tell a friend!
  • Members

  • Popular Now

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 0 replies
    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 1 reply
    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
      · 0 replies
  • Topics

×
×
  • Create New...