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Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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Mike,

 

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Mike the city can't put on white linen. The city is not righteous.

 

Pray for God to give you a proper understanding.

 

John was shown the lamb's wife and the city. It is important that you understand this, you are important because you are now a moderator and represent us.

No, you misunderstand what I am saying: the white linen, indeed, represents the righteousness of the saints, which they are wearing.

 

We are not righteous of ourselves-we receive that from God and the Lamb, who will dwell in the city. He is the righteousness of the saints, Where the Lord dwells, righteousness dwells.  And since the Father and the Lamb are the light of the city, and the new earth, so His righteousness is the righteousness of the New Jerusalem. She is adorned in the righteousness of the Lamb, her Husband.

 

After some consideration, allow me to tweak what I have said just a bit.

 

The New Jerusalem is the bride, as Old Jerulsaem/Israel was the wife. Meaning, old Israel, nationally, was the husband of God-what is Israel? Was the Lord married to the land? Obviously not, but the the people who made the land what it was. It was Israel, but not the place, but the people. They made up the land.

 

So the New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb in the same way: the righteousness is the righteousness of the saints, who will make up the city-they wll dwell in righteousness in the city. So, yes its the saints, but the saints make up the city.

 

In the OT, the Lord always referred to His people as 'Israel" or 'Jacob'. So in that time to come, it will be the New Jerusalem, made up of the people, the saints. But is it just the church? No, I believe it will be the saints of all time. Wil Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not be part of the bride, because they lived prior to the church? I don't think so. 

 

Does this make more sense?

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No, you misunderstand what I am saying: the white linen, indeed, represents the righteousness of the saints, which they are wearing.

 

We are not righteous of ourselves-we receive that from God and the Lamb, who will dwell in the city. He is the righteousness of the saints, Where the Lord dwells, righteousness dwells.  And since the Father and the Lamb are the light of the city, and the new earth, so His righteousness is the righteousness of the New Jerusalem. She is adorned in the righteousness of the Lamb, her Husband.

 

After some consideration, allow me to tweak what I have said just a bit.

 

The New Jerusalem is the bride, as Old Jerulsaem/Israel was the wife. Meaning, old Israel, nationally, was the husband of God-what is Israel? Was the Lord married to the land? Obviously not, but the the people who made the land what it was. It was Israel, but not the place, but the people. They made up the land.

 

So the New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb in the same way: the righteousness is the righteousness of the saints, who will make up the city-they wll dwell in righteousness in the city. So, yes its the saints, but the saints make up the city.

 

In the OT, the Lord always referred to His people as 'Israel" or 'Jacob'. So in that time to come, it will be the New Jerusalem, made up of the people, the saints. But is it just the church? No, I believe it will be the saints of all time. Wil Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not be part of the bride, because they lived prior to the church? I don't think so. 

 

Does this make more sense?

Yes. I agree that the saints of all time will be the bride in the New Jerusalem and the surviving Jews who live in the kingdom will be in the rebuilt Old Jerusalem.

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Mike - unless I am seriously misunderstanding what you are saying - I agree with you !

 

But not with Eric. I do not see any place in the NH&NE for the old Jerusalem.

 

The redeemed are one people of God in Christ, resurrected saints living with Christ in glory.

 

 

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No, you misunderstand what I am saying: the white linen, indeed, represents the righteousness of the saints, which they are wearing.

 

We are not righteous of ourselves-we receive that from God and the Lamb, who will dwell in the city. He is the righteousness of the saints, Where the Lord dwells, righteousness dwells.  And since the Father and the Lamb are the light of the city, and the new earth, so His righteousness is the righteousness of the New Jerusalem. She is adorned in the righteousness of the Lamb, her Husband.

 

After some consideration, allow me to tweak what I have said just a bit.

 

The New Jerusalem is the bride, as Old Jerulsaem/Israel was the wife. Meaning, old Israel, nationally, was the husband of God-what is Israel? Was the Lord married to the land? Obviously not, but the the people who made the land what it was. It was Israel, but not the place, but the people. They made up the land.

 

So the New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb in the same way: the righteousness is the righteousness of the saints, who will make up the city-they wll dwell in righteousness in the city. So, yes its the saints, but the saints make up the city.

 

In the OT, the Lord always referred to His people as 'Israel" or 'Jacob'. So in that time to come, it will be the New Jerusalem, made up of the people, the saints. But is it just the church? No, I believe it will be the saints of all time. Wil Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not be part of the bride, because they lived prior to the church? I don't think so. 

 

Does this make more sense?

 

Yes, I agree with that.

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Mike - unless I am seriously misunderstanding what you are saying - I agree with you !

 

But not with Eric. I do not see any place in the NH&NE for the old Jerusalem.

 

The redeemed are one people of God in Christ, resurrected saints living with Christ in glory.

Haggai 2

 

Haggai 2:1-9

1In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the LORD by the prophet Haggai, saying,

2Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying,

3Who is left among you that saw this house(((Solomens))) in her first glory? and how do ye see it(((2nd temple))) now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?

4Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the LORD, and work: for I am with you, saith the LORD of hosts:

5According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house(((Kingdom temple on earth))) with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

8The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

9The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Rev 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Rev 14:17-15:1

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

 

These are the two places the wrath of God is found.

 

As I understand this, the seals are essentially previews of the entire tribulation period, with the wrath being poured out last. The seals seem to encompass various things that we read of later occurring during the tribulation: the coming of the antichrist, and following him war, pestilence and death. we see those killed for the testimony of the Lord, which would correlate with the killing of the 144,000, as well as other martyrs during the tribulation, earthquakes, as the great one in Jerusalem preceding the resurrection of the two wtinesses, stars faling from heaven, and so forth. This is finally completed by the wrath of the Lamb, which, as we see above, occurs after the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds. Which, as everyone knows, can't possibly be the rapture. Yes, being sarcastic-sorry. Its early.

The sixth seal of Rev. 6 and the last two plagues along with the last two woes and the seventh trumpet occur at the same time ending with a great earthquake, shaking of the heavens and the wrath of the Lamb. The previous five seals begin at the midway point of the tribulation when the conqueror on the white horse is revealed. John is essentially recording the Second Coming four times in Revelation just as we have four records of the first coming . This would account for the various judgments i.e seal, vial, trumpet and woe. The reaping of the earth is a rapture but it is a rapture of the tribulation saints (Isaiah 26:17-21) left behind after the man child (i.e. the 144,000 and the two slain witnesses) of Rev. 12. is taken up 3 1/2 years earlier. The rest of the tribulation saints (the woman who flees into the desert) have to endure unto the end of the tribulation for 3 1/2 years.

 

It's possible that the NT church in this age will see the rise of the Antichrist. If this is the case then the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's last week may have occurred during Christ's ministry.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Haggai 2

 

Haggai 2:1-9

1In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the LORD by the prophet Haggai, saying,

2Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying,

3Who is left among you that saw this house(((Solomens))) in her first glory? and how do ye see it(((2nd temple))) now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?

4Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the LORD, and work: for I am with you, saith the LORD of hosts:

5According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house(((Kingdom temple on earth))) with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

8The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

9The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

The New Covenant temple is the redeemed people of God - built with living stones. There will NEVER be another stone temple. The viel was rent from top to bottom.

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The sixth seal of Rev. 6 and the last two plagues along with the last two woes and the seventh trumpet occur at the same time ending with a great earthquake, shaking of the heavens and the wrath of the Lamb. The previous five seals begin at the midway point of the tribulation when the conqueror on the white horse is revealed. John is essentially recording the Second Coming four times in Revelation just as we have four records of the first coming . This would account for the various judgments i.e seal, vial, trumpet and woe. The reaping of the earth is a rapture but it is a rapture of the tribulation saints (Isaiah 26:17-21) left behind after the man child (i.e. the 144,000 and the two slain witnesses) of Rev. 12. is taken up 3 1/2 years earlier. The rest of the tribulation saints (the woman who flees into the desert) have to endure unto the end of the tribulation for 3 1/2 years.

 

It's possible that the NT church in this age will see the rise of the Antichrist. If this is the case then the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's last week may have occurred during Christ's ministry.

 

ASongOfDegrees,

 

This is what you are seeing.

 

Five Phases of the First Resurrection

 

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
 

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
 

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17KJV also see John16:7-8KJV the Comforter in the church will reprove sin.
 

(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3, 7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV
 

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
 

(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV

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The New Covenant temple is the redeemed people of God - built with living stones. There will NEVER be another stone temple. The viel was rent from top to bottom.

 

Covenanter,

 

If you always spiritualize the bible passages, you will never understand it correctly.

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Ian:

The New Covenant temple is the redeemed people of God - built with living stones. There will NEVER be another stone temple. The viel was rent from top to bottom.

Covenanter,

 

If you always spiritualize the bible passages, you will never understand it correctly.

 

Eric:

I  love to learn somthing new.

 

If you were to read the Gospels & letters of the Apostles, you would learn how to understand prophecy.

 

In this instance, concerning the NC temple:

 

John 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

1 Peter 2:To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

The NT Scriptures interpret the OT as FULFILLED by the LORD Jesus Christ. Your teaching is a violation of the Prophetic Word. Study the NT to see how OT prophecy was & is fulfilled.

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Five phases of the FIRST resurrection?

 

If Christ were ruling from Jerusalem during a thousand years, why would there need to be a temple complete with animal sacrifices and such? Did not Christ come to fulfill the Old Covenant and establish the New Covenant?

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Five phases of the FIRST resurrection?

 

If Christ were ruling from Jerusalem during a thousand years, why would there need to be a temple complete with animal sacrifices and such? Did not Christ come to fulfill the Old Covenant and establish the New Covenant?

Not sure about five phases but possibly there are three. Just like there are three "phases" of a harvest in the OT: first fruits, main harvest and gleanings:there may be three phases of the first resurrection (Exodus 23:16,17).

 

I've also ask myself about the rebuilding of the temple and reinstitution of the animal sacrifices. It seems to be there though. The sacrifices of Ezekiel 44,45 take place under "David the prince".

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Keep in mind that if the sacrifices are restarted, it doesn't mean that God requires it, just that it happens.
There are many Jews who still regard the sacrifices as essential and would reinstate them tomorrow if the temple was there. But God doesn't require it. Doesn't mean they won't do it.

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Five phases of the FIRST resurrection?

 

If Christ were ruling from Jerusalem during a thousand years, why would there need to be a temple complete with animal sacrifices and such? Did not Christ come to fulfill the Old Covenant and establish the New Covenant?

Jesus makes it clear in John 5 that conversion is a resurrection that protects from condemnation - the second death.

 

John see the SOULS of the martyrs enjoying the first resurrection. It's not a bodily resurrection. We can't think of it in phases - it's continuous while sinners respond to the Gospel.

 

Agreed. Animal sacrifices can have no place under the NC. Ezekiel was prophesying regarding the rebuilding after the Babylon  captivity. It is an idealised vision, for God was working, and the temple was being rebuilt for Messiah. Do we look on the outward appearance? or the heart? Did Jesus love ME and give himself for ME because of the qualities people can see in me? No, but IN CHRIST I am a glorious new creation!

 

 

Song:

Not sure about five phases but possibly there are three. Just like there are three "phases" of a harvest in the OT: first fruits, main harvest and gleanings:there may be three phases of the first resurrection (Exodus 23:16,17).

 

I've also ask myself about the rebuilding of the temple and reinstitution of the animal sacrifices. It seems to be there though. The sacrifices of Ezekiel 44,45 take place under "David the prince".

 

 

Dave:

Keep in mind that if the sacrifices are restarted, it doesn't mean that God requires it, just that it happens.
There are many Jews who still regard the sacrifices as essential and would reinstate them tomorrow if the temple was there. But God doesn't require it. Doesn't mean they won't do it.

 

If the Jews (supported or not by Christian Zionists) rebuild a temple & start sacrifices again it will be a gross affront to the Messiah.

 

What does FINISHED mean?

 

Heb. 10:For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

We must understand the OT & OT prophecy by its NT fulfilment.

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But prophecy did not only record what pleased God. It also recorded things that were to happen that didn't please God but were going to happen anyway.

That was my only point. It is not valid to say the temple won't be rebuilt because God doesn't require the sacrifices any more.
God doesn't require the sacrifices any more but that doesn't mean men won't do them.....

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Keep in mind that if the sacrifices are restarted, it doesn't mean that God requires it, just that it happens.
There are many Jews who still regard the sacrifices as essential and would reinstate them tomorrow if the temple was there. But God doesn't require it. Doesn't mean they won't do it.

That might fit if the Jews did this prior to the return of Christ, but to claim that Christ will establish a thousand year reign on earth, where He will rule with a rod of iron, and yet allow the Jews to build a temple and offer sacrifices during this time doesn't fit at all.

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But prophecy did not only record what pleased God. It also recorded things that were to happen that didn't please God but were going to happen anyway.

That was my only point. It is not valid to say the temple won't be rebuilt because God doesn't require the sacrifices any more.
God doesn't require the sacrifices any more but that doesn't mean men won't do them.....

I agree - they are capable of rebuilding the temple & restarting sacrifices. BUT they would have no value and would not conform to Ezekiel's prophecy. That prophecy was a vision of a glorious temple, not one to be built in rebellion. And sacrifices for sin were commanded.

 

45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

18 Thus saith the Lord God; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:

19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.

20 And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.

21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.

 

As Hebrews puts it:

9:The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

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