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Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Just because the church is not mentiojed specifically doesn't mean they aren't there. The saints are spoken of a lot. Are we not the saints? Is it possible that, such would be the persecution, that organized churches, assemblies, may be a bit difficult to have? And again, since the main thrust of the GT is Jacob, it would make sense that the church is not spoken of that much-but nowhere does it say they are removed, or taken away.  

In fact, the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds matches well the reaping mentioned in Matt 24, which takes place AFTER the tribulation of those days, as well as the reaping, when the chaff and the wheat are separated. In Rev 14, when it mentions that the harvest is 'ripe', it means 'dry'. Some have said, because of this, it can't refer to the church. However, it fits perfectly, since we are likened to wheat-and how do you know wheat is ready for harvesting? because it is 'dry'. So if there is a reaping because the harvest is dry, it fits perfectly for the separation of the wheat out from the chaff.

 

I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

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I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

Honestly, its not an issue to me, either, or not a separtion issue. Christ will take us when He does, and I truly hope I AM wrong-I just have not yet seen anything from the Bible to convince me otherwise.

Could you maybe give me the post from the other thread of your part? Thanks!

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It's pretty simple: Israel, the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah, has been set-aside (for the last 2,000 yrs.) and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.
When the Gentile, Bride of Christ, is removed from the earth [harpazo], then it will be Israel's turn again; and what a harvest they will have!

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a DISPENSATION of the gospel is committed unto me. [Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles]
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the DISPENSATION of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
One, two, three witnesses - 2 Cor 13:1b " In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

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1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

 

The coming wrath is the day of judgment.  We will of course not be condemned on that day.

 

Re 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Re 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

Think about Noah-he was not removed from the tribulation of the flood, just providentially allowed to ride it out. He still had to live through watching (or hearing), his neighbors and loved ones die in the flood; he still had to ride the flood waters for over a year, and he and his family had to work hard afterward to continue the race. Doesn't sound like much of a rapture.

 

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

None of these verses tell us WHEN we will be removed-just that we will. And look at the context, specifically what it says: the comfort has NOTHING, zero, zip, nada, to do with missing the tribulation. In fact, it doesn't even MENTION the tribulation in Thess 4;the specific context of comfort has to do with the surety of again seeing our loved ones who have died in Christ. Read again:

                   "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. "

 

Its true, God hasn't appointed us to wrath-but the wrath begins directly after the events of Rev 14:14, when Jesus reaps the earth of His harvest. We suffer tribulation, but are not appointed to wrath.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

No - he didn't go through that judgement. He was indeed removed from the place of judgement to a place of safety.

Still doesn't prove anything though. Just a point.

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Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:7 The marriage of Jesus to his bride.

In my Father's house are many mansions [dwelling places]: if it were not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a [dwelling] place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3 The "dwelling places" combined make up the "New Jerusalem".
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Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

 

The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

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The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

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as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

YHWH? Made up word by a antisemitic German Rationialist who believed the Jews stole their god from the Syrians.

 

 

http://av1611.com/KJBp/ridiculous-KJV-bible-corrections/Yahweh-Jehova-YHVH.html

 

 

 

[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

New Jerusalem is the bride and the wife of the Lamb. New Jerusalem is also our mother (Gal. 4:26). Can't be understood, only believed.

 

 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

Mike,

 

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Mike the city can't put on white linen. The city is not righteous.

 

Pray for God to give you a proper understanding.

 

John was shown the lamb's wife and the city. It is important that you understand this, you are important because you are now a moderator and represent us.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Think about Noah-he was not removed from the tribulation of the flood, just providentially allowed to ride it out. He still had to live through watching (or hearing), his neighbors and loved ones die in the flood; he still had to ride the flood waters for over a year, and he and his family had to work hard afterward to continue the race. Doesn't sound like much of a rapture.

 

None of these verses tell us WHEN we will be removed-just that we will. And look at the context, specifically what it says: the comfort has NOTHING, zero, zip, nada, to do with missing the tribulation. In fact, it doesn't even MENTION the tribulation in Thess 4;the specific context of comfort has to do with the surety of again seeing our loved ones who have died in Christ. Read again:

                   "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. "

 

Its true, God hasn't appointed us to wrath-but the wrath begins directly after the events of Rev 14:14, when Jesus reaps the earth of His harvest. We suffer tribulation, but are not appointed to wrath.

 

Mike all the seal judgments are the wrath of the Lamb during which 25% of the worlds people will die.

 

Revelation 6:14-17

 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every

bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

This is not saying that it is starting now. It is telling us that what we have seen is the great day of his wrath.

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Thanks for responding. Now, why do I dispute that your hermeneutics is literal?

 

I would be happy to explain why I use a literal hermeneutics when interpreting prophecy.  The first reason is that all prophecy that has already been fulfilled has been fulfilled in a literal way.  This is  obvious to most people.

 

Obvious? Certainly we should be guided by the fulfilment of prophecy recorded within Scripture. Did Abraham receive what God promised him?

Gen. 13:14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

 

Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

   The prophecy that has not been fulfilled it would be expected to also be fulfilled in a literal way.  When it comes to Eschatology all methods that replace Israel with the church are simply not valid when scripture is literally interpreted.  A dispensational premillennial view is the only view that makes logical sense.

 

"Logical sense" but we MUST be guided by Scripture, and not trust our own logic. If we take the promises to the Patriarchs literally, what do we read,and what should we expect? This promise is oft repeated and its fulfilment recorded in Scripture:

 

Gen. 12:And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. 

 

Gal. 3:

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

Your assertion about what is called "replacement theology" is not NOT the belief of those you accuse. Israel, in many thousands did believe and were saved. Acts records that truth. Those who rejected their Messiah and the Apostolic Gospel perished as prophesied, Believing Israel lives on, as one redeemed people of God, Jew and Gentile, one body in and of Christ, all Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Deut. 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

Mal. 4:Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

   

 

The early church (Apostles and first century fathers) viewed scripture from a literal standpoint and was still looking for the Messiah to come the second time during their lives.  

 

So you consider the Apostles were mistaken in their views. Where is that mistake recorded in their writings? Apart from Acts 1:6 Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? A mistake Jesus immediately corrected by repeated the great commission. They certainly didn't get that idea from the teaching of Jesus, or they wouldn't have asked. They NEVER stated that idea in the writings.

 

After the first century many false schools of interpretation starting using an allegorical method to interpret scripture, which continued until Augustine reasoned that the methods used by the Apostles and first century fathers were correct.  This correction was used for everything except Eschatology, and no reason was ever provided why this correction was ever made.  Likely since a post-millennial  view was created during this time to answer other heresies that had crept into Christianity is the reason that sound hermeneutics was never recovered for eschatology.  

 

I wouldn't prove anything by writings other than Scripture. There are, of course many ideas about the interpretation of prophecy.   

 

Later after the reformation theologians returned to sound Eschatology and this has been the standard since the early 1900's.   Makes sense to use a literal reading, it is so much easier that changing the simple definitions of words like, elect, all, everyone, world, whosoever, etc, etc, etc.  

 

We should understand words and ideas by their context where such words may have several valid meanings, and be used in different senses in Scripture. e.g. in Mal. 4, what is the meaning of "earth"? It must be the LAND of Israel, for the blessed Gospel went out to the nations after Israel (as a nation) rejected it and was declared by the Holy Spirit speaking by Stephen to be "uncircumcised."  

 

I happen to agree with Clarence Larkin which is why I posted the above. However, I don't need to answer to why I posted this everyone who uses a logical, literal method of interpretation will come to the same conclusion.

 

I first heard of "replacement theology" when I was given a tract by Larkin. He makes an accusation, then refutes his own accusation. You statement about "everyone ... " may be correct, but Paul denounces that approach as carnal. We must look deeply into Scripture, and read and obey the great spiritual truths God has revealed.

 

1 Cor. 2:But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

3:And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 

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I had a complete post for here, but on second thought all I can say is I will pray for you, may you find the truth of God.

I did see it, and am glad you deleted it, with a prayer.

 

I pray that those who are watching the discussion will be edified.

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Mike all the seal judgments are the wrath of the Lamb during which 25% of the worlds people will die.

 

Revelation 6:14-17

 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every

bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

This is not saying that it is starting now. It is telling us that what we have seen is the great day of his wrath.

Rev 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Rev 14:17-15:1

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

 

These are the two places the wrath of God is found.

 

As I understand this, the seals are essentially previews of the entire tribulation period, with the wrath being poured out last. The seals seem to encompass various things that we read of later occurring during the tribulation: the coming of the antichrist, and following him war, pestilence and death. we see those killed for the testimony of the Lord, which would correlate with the killing of the 144,000, as well as other martyrs during the tribulation, earthquakes, as the great one in Jerusalem preceding the resurrection of the two wtinesses, stars faling from heaven, and so forth. This is finally completed by the wrath of the Lamb, which, as we see above, occurs after the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds. Which, as everyone knows, can't possibly be the rapture. Yes, being sarcastic-sorry. Its early.

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