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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

I know some people don't like Dr. David Jeremiah, but I read a book of his and heard a sermon series on this topic on the radio a few years ago, and the way he put it all together and explained it was the best and easiest to grasp I've ever encountered.

 

No doubt, we should be very motivated to spread the Gospel, give generously to missionaries, and make disciples.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

The Holy Ghost also remained with some, but that was under the Old Covenant. Those born again during the tribulation are under the New Covenant. When one is born again in Christ they are sealed with the Holy Ghost and He indwells them.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I would stick to Paul's Epistles concerning the Church, the Bride of Christ. In three places Paul states that he
is the Apostle to the Gentiles - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
God is not finished with true genetic Israel; Paul devotes three chapters in Romans stating this very fact. Israel (ie: Jews), the "adulterous wife of Jehovah" will go through the Great Tribulation.
"The day of Jacob's trouble" is when Israel will be greatly tested for 3 1/2 years during what we call the Great Tribulation. In Revelation, John accounts for this period in days, weeks, and years.
So when you read the Hebrew Epistle of Peter, keep in mind that he is talking about the end of the current world and the creation of a NEW world where righteousness dwells and the Devil is no more.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

 

Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The Book, "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost is an excellent book that shows the different beliefs concerning the Great Tribulation.  Dr. Pentecost was the president of Dallas Theological Seminary (Or is it now "cemetery") I believe it is still available.  He is called an "expert" of Eschatology.  A very good book to keep in your library.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited: had wrong title for the book.

Edited by irishman
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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

That last paragraph is all-important, regardless of our views on the rapture, etc.

 

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

 

As for all those books, they are all irrelevant as they are dealing with supposed events AFTER the present Gospel age. The Bible, including the prophetic books, deal with real, living people, and call for present action.

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  • Advanced Member

Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

 

Could any tribulation be any worse?

 

It is constantly said on here that the church will not go through tribulation.

Edited by Invicta
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Could any tribulation be any worse?

 

It is constantly said on here that the church will not go through tribulation.

Maybe everyone isn't wording things clearly, but the pre-trib rapture view is that there will be a 7 year tribulation and Christians will be raptured before that occurs. They acknowledge there will be persecution and tribulation prior to that, but contend the 7 year tribulation will be much greater than anything previous and is the outpouring of the wrath of God which Christians will not be subject to.

 

Mid-trib rapturists hold to a similar view, except they only view the last half of the 7 year tribulation as the wrath of God and believe the church will be raptured at the mid-point of the 7 year tribulation, just prior to the Great Tribulation which they contend lasts 3 1/2 years and is the wrath of God.

 

Both agree there is persecution and tribulation for Christians prior to this, but see "The Tribulation" and especially "The Great Tribulation" as being very much worse and something Christians will not go through because of being raptured prior to it beginning.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To all who are not going to be raptured before the tribulation,

 

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

The tribulation will be soon since Israel has gathered.

 

How will you take care of your family during the tribulation? Russia and America(((Jeremiah 6:22))) will fight a nuclear war. America will win but how will you live? This is searious!

Edited by Eric Stahl
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To all who are not going to be raptured before the tribulation,

 

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

The tribulation will be soon since Israel has gathered.

 

How will you take care of your family during the tribulation? Russia and America(((Jeremiah 6:22))) will fight a nuclear war. America will win but how will you live? This is searious!

Where does this say Russia and America will fight a nuclear war?

 

In or out of tribulation, the lost are in exceeding danger. In or out of tribulation, the saved are assured of their destination.

 

Either way, the point of knowing the end will one day be upon us is a call to action on our part to pursue personal holiness while spreading the Gospel and making disciples.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

2 Thessalonians 2:7 does not say it is the Holy Spirit who will be taken out of the way.  It could be a (super) angel as we see in Daniel 10. 

Oft repeated "assumptions" will not always prove the case.

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth  will let, until he be taken out of the way.

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If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

 

I disagree with that, however, I firmly believe that anyone who has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, & had understood it, rejected Jesus, will not have another opportunity after the rapture, yet for those who have not understood it, has not rejected Christ they will have an opportunity to be saved. The only thing is that in the tribulation, & even more so in the great tribulations, it will be a very tough hardship to be saved.

 

I should word that different, yet at the moment that's the best I can do.

 

The believers during that time will be persecuted beyond belief. Imagine a father & mother with child, & the only way they can obtain food, buy it, is by taking the mark of the beast.

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2 Thessalonians 2:7 does not say it is the Holy Spirit who will be taken out of the way.  It could be a (super) angel as we see in Daniel 10. 

Oft repeated "assumptions" will not always prove the case.

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth  will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Actually, I agree. I don't see in scripture where it says that the job of the Spirit is to keep Satan from control-rather, He seals the believer, (something that will occur during the GT), He teaches, He brings things to our remembrance, and He comforts. It seems that Michael tends to be the one who disputes with the devil.

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

As well, why do we see some three times where the Bible laments that, despite all that happens, the people still refuse to repent? Why would that be mentioned, if there was no way they could repent?

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Ian:

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Mike:

As well, why do we see some three times where the Bible laments that, despite all that happens, the people still refuse to repent? Why would that be mentioned, if there was no way they could repent?

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

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When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

 

covenanter,

 

Do you believe the mark of the beast has happened?

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
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