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Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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Just because the church is not mentiojed specifically doesn't mean they aren't there. The saints are spoken of a lot. Are we not the saints? Is it possible that, such would be the persecution, that organized churches, assemblies, may be a bit difficult to have? And again, since the main thrust of the GT is Jacob, it would make sense that the church is not spoken of that much-but nowhere does it say they are removed, or taken away.  

In fact, the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds matches well the reaping mentioned in Matt 24, which takes place AFTER the tribulation of those days, as well as the reaping, when the chaff and the wheat are separated. In Rev 14, when it mentions that the harvest is 'ripe', it means 'dry'. Some have said, because of this, it can't refer to the church. However, it fits perfectly, since we are likened to wheat-and how do you know wheat is ready for harvesting? because it is 'dry'. So if there is a reaping because the harvest is dry, it fits perfectly for the separation of the wheat out from the chaff.

 

I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

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I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

Honestly, its not an issue to me, either, or not a separtion issue. Christ will take us when He does, and I truly hope I AM wrong-I just have not yet seen anything from the Bible to convince me otherwise.

Could you maybe give me the post from the other thread of your part? Thanks!

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It's pretty simple: Israel, the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah, has been set-aside (for the last 2,000 yrs.) and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.
When the Gentile, Bride of Christ, is removed from the earth [harpazo], then it will be Israel's turn again; and what a harvest they will have!

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a DISPENSATION of the gospel is committed unto me. [Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles]
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the DISPENSATION of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
One, two, three witnesses - 2 Cor 13:1b " In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

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1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

 

The coming wrath is the day of judgment.  We will of course not be condemned on that day.

 

Re 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Re 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

Think about Noah-he was not removed from the tribulation of the flood, just providentially allowed to ride it out. He still had to live through watching (or hearing), his neighbors and loved ones die in the flood; he still had to ride the flood waters for over a year, and he and his family had to work hard afterward to continue the race. Doesn't sound like much of a rapture.

 

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

None of these verses tell us WHEN we will be removed-just that we will. And look at the context, specifically what it says: the comfort has NOTHING, zero, zip, nada, to do with missing the tribulation. In fact, it doesn't even MENTION the tribulation in Thess 4;the specific context of comfort has to do with the surety of again seeing our loved ones who have died in Christ. Read again:

                   "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. "

 

Its true, God hasn't appointed us to wrath-but the wrath begins directly after the events of Rev 14:14, when Jesus reaps the earth of His harvest. We suffer tribulation, but are not appointed to wrath.

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Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

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Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:7 The marriage of Jesus to his bride.

In my Father's house are many mansions [dwelling places]: if it were not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a [dwelling] place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3 The "dwelling places" combined make up the "New Jerusalem".
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Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

 

The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

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The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

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as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

YHWH? Made up word by a antisemitic German Rationialist who believed the Jews stole their god from the Syrians.

 

 

http://av1611.com/KJBp/ridiculous-KJV-bible-corrections/Yahweh-Jehova-YHVH.html

 

 

 

[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

New Jerusalem is the bride and the wife of the Lamb. New Jerusalem is also our mother (Gal. 4:26). Can't be understood, only believed.

 

 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

Mike,

 

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Mike the city can't put on white linen. The city is not righteous.

 

Pray for God to give you a proper understanding.

 

John was shown the lamb's wife and the city. It is important that you understand this, you are important because you are now a moderator and represent us.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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