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Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

 

I cannot agree with you, nor with those who accuse you of "Preterism."

 

The great tribulation was suffered by the generation of Jews who rejected their Messiah. Any tribulation suffered by Jews after that is evil persecution, NOT continued affliction by God. See 1 Thes. 2 - the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

Succeeding generations of Jews are in exactly the same position as other unbelievers - called to salvation by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who repent are welcomed into the fold & numbered with all God's people.

 

Rev. 5:And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

That status - kings and priests - is the present status of God's people, as John said earlier, quoting Moses & Peter:

 

Rev. 1:And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Exo. 19:Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

1 Peter 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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If you, like me believe that the church is the bride of Christ, made up of born again Bible believing Christians,

Then the church will not go through the tribulation. Why?

 

For Christ to send his bride through the tribulation would be spousal abuse! :bleh:

 

 

 

 

Dr. Roberson

 

So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

I left Paris, where I had been labouring in the Gospel, at the

outbreak of the Franco-German war in July, 1870. It was in the light

of the German bombardment of that city, of the ring of fire which

surrounded it, and of the burning of the Tuileries, that I began to read

with interest and understanding the prophecies of Daniel and the

Apocalypse.

 

 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

When the Quemadero was opened at Madrid in 1870, and the ashes of the martyrs who hadbeen burned by the Inquisition brought to light, we were present, and

saw that thick bank of human remains, and stood breast deep in the ashes. We have seen in Mexico skeletons of victims of the Inquisition who had been buried alive; have visited the Inquisition in Rome; have seen its prisons, and conversed with its Inquisitors. Cold blooded tribunal! 

 

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

THE WITNESSES SILENCED

The Inquisition continued its career of persecution under its forty-four inquisitors-general till 1820, when it was finally suppressed. But as early as the Lateran Council in 1514. the whole of the prereformation witnesses to the gospel in France, Spain, Piedmont, Italy and Bohemia, by means of the sword, the rack, and the stake, had been crushed and silenced. In England the Lollards were extinct. None remained to witness to New Testament truth. The orator of the session, ascending the pulpit, addressed to the assembled members of the Lateran Council, the memorable exclamation of triumph :—"There is an end of resistance to the Papal rule and religion; opposers there exist no more."

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. Personally, I believe that we will go through it until just prior to the wrath of God being poured out, but that's not the point of my comment here and now. There has always been tribulation and persecution-but then, it will be something much more organized and global, with a religion at its forefront, and people will be involved in it willingly, believeing a lie, thinking they do God service.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. 

 

Right. There is a difference between tribulation (even that which is great) and The Great Tribulation. Just like there is a difference between a savior (one who has rescued another) and The Savior.

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

I know some people don't like Dr. David Jeremiah, but I read a book of his and heard a sermon series on this topic on the radio a few years ago, and the way he put it all together and explained it was the best and easiest to grasp I've ever encountered.

 

No doubt, we should be very motivated to spread the Gospel, give generously to missionaries, and make disciples.

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To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

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To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

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That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

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During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

The Holy Ghost also remained with some, but that was under the Old Covenant. Those born again during the tribulation are under the New Covenant. When one is born again in Christ they are sealed with the Holy Ghost and He indwells them.

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I would stick to Paul's Epistles concerning the Church, the Bride of Christ. In three places Paul states that he
is the Apostle to the Gentiles - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
God is not finished with true genetic Israel; Paul devotes three chapters in Romans stating this very fact. Israel (ie: Jews), the "adulterous wife of Jehovah" will go through the Great Tribulation.
"The day of Jacob's trouble" is when Israel will be greatly tested for 3 1/2 years during what we call the Great Tribulation. In Revelation, John accounts for this period in days, weeks, and years.
So when you read the Hebrew Epistle of Peter, keep in mind that he is talking about the end of the current world and the creation of a NEW world where righteousness dwells and the Devil is no more.

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So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

 

Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

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The Book, "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost is an excellent book that shows the different beliefs concerning the Great Tribulation.  Dr. Pentecost was the president of Dallas Theological Seminary (Or is it now "cemetery") I believe it is still available.  He is called an "expert" of Eschatology.  A very good book to keep in your library.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited: had wrong title for the book.

Edited by irishman
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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

That last paragraph is all-important, regardless of our views on the rapture, etc.

 

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

 

As for all those books, they are all irrelevant as they are dealing with supposed events AFTER the present Gospel age. The Bible, including the prophetic books, deal with real, living people, and call for present action.

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Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

 

Could any tribulation be any worse?

 

It is constantly said on here that the church will not go through tribulation.

Edited by Invicta
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