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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church


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Pre Tribulation Rapture

           

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

2 Peter 3:10-14

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

 

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

(((Why)))

 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

(((So)))

 

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

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(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

 

 

What world are you living in?

 

Have you ever read church history?  Have you ever read Foxe's Actes and Monuments, of the millions murdered in the most dreadful circumstances.  I recently received an email from an American missionary pastor in France where he said that a family from the Cenral African Republic in their church Had been reunited with their three children after seven years. On the day the children arrived in Paris in April, an Evangelical church in the town where the children had been living, was attacked and seven Christians were killed.  Would you like to go to the Central African Republic and tell those Christians that they are not going through tribulation?

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What world are you living in?

 

Have you ever read church history?  Have you ever read Foxe's Actes and Monuments, of the millions murdered in the most dreadful circumstances.  I recently received an email from an American missionary pastor in France where he said that a family from the Cenral African Republic in their church Had been reunited with their three children after seven years. On the day the children arrived in Paris in April, an Evangelical church in the town where the children had been living, was attacked and seven Christians were killed.  Would you like to go to the Central African Republic and tell those Christians that they are not going through tribulation?

 

People of every age and era suffer tribulation, and certainly will until the end of time (John 16:33).  However, what's being referred to in the OP is the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21-22, 29; Mark 13:24) where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are poured out on the earth (Rev 5-10).

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(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
Literally just as the Bible says will happen.
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People of every age and era suffer tribulation, and certainly will until the end of time (John 16:33).  However, what's being referred to in the OP is the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21-22, 29; Mark 13:24) where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are poured out on the earth (Rev 5-10).

 

I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-17  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
Literally just as the Bible says will happen.

 

 

I don't see you post has any relevance.

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I don't see you post has any relevance.

 

I'm not shocked by that.  If the great tribulation has already occurred as you say then the devil has been cast into the bottomless pit and we are living in paradise?

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I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose.  The Great Tribulation is a worldwide event in which no flesh would survive if Jesus didn't return and is something so terrible that no one can fathom what it will be like (see Scripture quotes from previous post plus Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7).  Last I checked (which was about 2 min ago) the world population has grown from 1 billion to 7 billion in the last two hundred years, holding steady at a 1.2% growth rate.  That doesn't sound like Tribulation-level death to me.  Also, when I consider the persecutions, genocides, an natural disasters that have happened over the course of history, I can't say that today is any worse than 1000 B.C.  I mean...there's no mass army banging down my door to kill my children like in Moses' day...I haven't seen numerous stars (meteors?) fall to the earth or the mountains and islands move as described in Revelation 6 which describes the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  You really have to take a strong allegorical approach to Scripture to come away with the notion that we're living in the Great Tribulation.  I take a plain reading myself.

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Agree to disagree I suppose.  The Great Tribulation is a worldwide event in which no flesh would survive if Jesus didn't return and is something so terrible that no one can fathom what it will be like (see Scripture quotes from previous post plus Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7).  Last I checked (which was about 2 min ago) the world population has grown from 1 billion to 7 billion in the last two hundred years, holding steady at a 1.2% growth rate.  That doesn't sound like Tribulation-level death to me.  Also, when I consider the persecutions, genocides, an natural disasters that have happened over the course of history, I can't say that today is any worse than 1000 B.C.  I mean...there's no mass army banging down my door to kill my children like in Moses' day...I haven't seen numerous stars (meteors?) fall to the earth or the mountains and islands move as described in Revelation 6 which describes the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  You really have to take a strong allegorical approach to Scripture to come away with the notion that we're living in the Great Tribulation.  I take a plain reading myself.

 

It is the whole preterist argument reemerging. I have read with an open mind the postings (maybe all of them on here supporting that view) and can't for the life of me fathom how these obviously learned and intelligent preterist brethren (forum members here) can buy into it.

 

I am no rocket surgeon, but am of reasonable intelligence and the mechanics simply do not add up even remotely.

 

Anyway, I SAY it before and I will SAID it again: if our preterist brethren want to stay after the rapture, have at it, but I am going...PERIOD.

 

Hope you have been watching all the discovery channel "survivalist, build your own bunker" type shows cause you fellas are going to need that info badly.

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The man who lead my father to Christ was a primitive Baptist. He believed Jesus literally spoke in Olde English and was a preterist. When my dad presented him with Biblical evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture he simply said, "look, I'm a simple man. This is what my daddy's daddy taught him, it's what my daddy taught me and that's what I was raised to believe". I've yet to meet a preterist who actually offers any sort of proof text for their eschatalogical viewpoint. 

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Re 9:13 ¶ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Re 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Re 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Re 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Re 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Re 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
 
That has no happened yet, but it will happen in the future, after the rapture, its call the Tribulation, & the 2nd half of the 3 & 1/2 years will be very bad, & nothing like it has ever happened before man's eyes.
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I think if more Christians would study the book of Revelation and try and visualize what the tribulation will be like, we would be all the more on fire for witnessing to the lost. I cannot even begin to comprehend the horror and devastation those people will face. When I think of just the chaos that will ensue the moment the rapture takes place. Pregnant women suddenly with empty wombs. Unmanned vehicles with lost passengers still on board. Doctors gone missing in the middle of a life-saving surgery. The death toll of that alone should be catastrophic. Then the emotional fallout once people try and sort out what happened. Then, of course, the reign of the antichrist and all of the catastrophic events that will take place during that time. It will be so awful.

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If you, like me believe that the church is the bride of Christ, made up of born again Bible believing Christians,

Then the church will not go through the tribulation. Why?

 

For Christ to send his bride through the tribulation would be spousal abuse! :bleh:

 

 

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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From the "Israel Today" thread, page 3.

 

 

So we have passed the time of trouble, what, 2,000 years ago, but have not yet entered into the NH&NE? Just making sure I understand what you are saying. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

 

 

Yes. The "great tribulation" was suffered by the generation that rejected its Messiah. That, of course is not the end of all tribulation. Believers suffer tribulation from unbelievers - as Jesus warned in John 16, & Paul also warned.

 

The tribulation & trials suffered by believers is not due to God's wrath - that is reserved for the ungodly. Note the way Paul carefully explains in 2 Thes.  Believers suffer persecution, but the persecutors suffer everlasting destruction.

1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

That persecution/tribulation suffered by believers is NOT the wrath of God. We are saved - we will not suffer wrath.

1 Thes. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

Note how Paul refers to the judgment of the Jews who rejected their Messiah, & the Gospel:

1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

I have often seen 1 T 1:10 used as a proof text that believers will not suffer in the great tribulation, because they are delivered us from the wrath to come (which is wrong equated to the great tribulation) by the supposed rapture. No. We are delivered from wrath by the cross. 

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I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

 

I cannot agree with you, nor with those who accuse you of "Preterism."

 

The great tribulation was suffered by the generation of Jews who rejected their Messiah. Any tribulation suffered by Jews after that is evil persecution, NOT continued affliction by God. See 1 Thes. 2 - the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

Succeeding generations of Jews are in exactly the same position as other unbelievers - called to salvation by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who repent are welcomed into the fold & numbered with all God's people.

 

Rev. 5:And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

That status - kings and priests - is the present status of God's people, as John said earlier, quoting Moses & Peter:

 

Rev. 1:And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Exo. 19:Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

1 Peter 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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If you, like me believe that the church is the bride of Christ, made up of born again Bible believing Christians,

Then the church will not go through the tribulation. Why?

 

For Christ to send his bride through the tribulation would be spousal abuse! :bleh:

 

 

 

 

Dr. Roberson

 

So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

I left Paris, where I had been labouring in the Gospel, at the

outbreak of the Franco-German war in July, 1870. It was in the light

of the German bombardment of that city, of the ring of fire which

surrounded it, and of the burning of the Tuileries, that I began to read

with interest and understanding the prophecies of Daniel and the

Apocalypse.

 

 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

When the Quemadero was opened at Madrid in 1870, and the ashes of the martyrs who hadbeen burned by the Inquisition brought to light, we were present, and

saw that thick bank of human remains, and stood breast deep in the ashes. We have seen in Mexico skeletons of victims of the Inquisition who had been buried alive; have visited the Inquisition in Rome; have seen its prisons, and conversed with its Inquisitors. Cold blooded tribunal! 

 

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

THE WITNESSES SILENCED

The Inquisition continued its career of persecution under its forty-four inquisitors-general till 1820, when it was finally suppressed. But as early as the Lateran Council in 1514. the whole of the prereformation witnesses to the gospel in France, Spain, Piedmont, Italy and Bohemia, by means of the sword, the rack, and the stake, had been crushed and silenced. In England the Lollards were extinct. None remained to witness to New Testament truth. The orator of the session, ascending the pulpit, addressed to the assembled members of the Lateran Council, the memorable exclamation of triumph :—"There is an end of resistance to the Papal rule and religion; opposers there exist no more."

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. Personally, I believe that we will go through it until just prior to the wrath of God being poured out, but that's not the point of my comment here and now. There has always been tribulation and persecution-but then, it will be something much more organized and global, with a religion at its forefront, and people will be involved in it willingly, believeing a lie, thinking they do God service.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. 

 

Right. There is a difference between tribulation (even that which is great) and The Great Tribulation. Just like there is a difference between a savior (one who has rescued another) and The Savior.

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
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        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
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      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
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      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
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      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
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      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
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      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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