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         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

The Third Woe


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The Third Woe

 

Revelation 8:12–13 KJV

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

The last three trumpet judgments are so bad they are called woes.

 

Revelation 11:14

The second woe is past and behold the third woe cometh quickly.

 

The sixth trumpet judgment and the second woe are finished within the same hour that the two witnesses finished their 1260 day mission.

 

What is the third woe?

 

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The 3rd woe would be the trumpet of the 7th angel which opens up the vial judgments of Rev 16. The entire series of the 7 vials of the wrath of God would be the 3rd woe. The 3 woes are descriptive of the series of judgments, seals, trumpets, vials. They are not in chronological order as some jump ahead in time. (I'll explain later, too tired to write now). 

Some of the confusion is that pre-wrathers, preterists, historicists and covenant theologians attribute the 7th trumpet to the the trumpet of I Thess 4:13-17 and I Cor 15:51-52. They are not the same trumpet.

*the 7th trumpet is blown by one of 7 angels described in ch 8:6; In 1 Thess 4:16, it is the Lord HIMSELF that makes the shout, and with the voice of the ARCH angel. 2 things to emphasis about the angel in 1 Thess 4, it is THE, not "an" but THE arch angel, and of course, ARCH angel, not one of the 7 of Rev 8:6.  I personally believe that 1 Thess 4:16 describes 3 different catching aways as there is a clear reference to tribulation saints being in heaven DURING the tribulation (Rev 7:14) and 2 witnesses caught up in the middle of the trib Rev 11:11-12. God uses a trump specially prepared for the rapture in 1 Cor 15, so the events in 1 Thess would follow:

*the Lord Himself descends with a shout (rapture of the church)

*with the voice of the arch angel (gathering of tribulation jews during the tribulation)

*and with the trump of God (the entrance into the 1000 year reign).

 

I'll expound more later.

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The 3rd woe would be the trumpet of the 7th angel which opens up the vial judgments of Rev 16. The entire series of the 7 vials of the wrath of God would be the 3rd woe. The 3 woes are descriptive of the series of judgments, seals, trumpets, vials. They are not in chronological order as some jump ahead in time. (I'll explain later, too tired to write now). 

Some of the confusion is that pre-wrathers, preterists, historicists and covenant theologians attribute the 7th trumpet to the the trumpet of I Thess 4:13-17 and I Cor 15:51-52. They are not the same trumpet.

*the 7th trumpet is blown by one of 7 angels described in ch 8:6; In 1 Thess 4:16, it is the Lord HIMSELF that makes the shout, and with the voice of the ARCH angel. 2 things to emphasis about the angel in 1 Thess 4, it is THE, not "an" but THE arch angel, and of course, ARCH angel, not one of the 7 of Rev 8:6.  I personally believe that 1 Thess 4:16 describes 3 different catching aways as there is a clear reference to tribulation saints being in heaven DURING the tribulation (Rev 7:14) and 2 witnesses caught up in the middle of the trib Rev 11:11-12. God uses a trump specially prepared for the rapture in 1 Cor 15, so the events in 1 Thess would follow:

*the Lord Himself descends with a shout (rapture of the church)

*with the voice of the arch angel (gathering of tribulation jews during the tribulation)

*and with the trump of God (the entrance into the 1000 year reign).

 

I'll expound more later.

Rev Dr James A,

 

I agree that there are more than one catching ups. See my post for the 5 phases of the first resurrection. It lists the scriptures and the people caught up.

 

I agree that all the vial judgments will happen during the 3.5 years of the third woe and the 7th trumpet.

 

I would love to talk to you. You seem to be above average in understanding.

 

But     the third woe is a specific judgment that lasts for 3.5 years!

 

What is the third woe?

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Concerning the third “woe” of Revelation,

 

Revelation 8:1 presents the opening of the seventh seal judgment, then verse 2 reveals that seven angels stood before God, “and to them were given seven trumpets.”  Revelation 8:7-12 then presents the sounding of the first four of those trumpets.  Immediately following the sounding of the fourth trumpet judgment, Revelation 8:13 pronounces three great “woes” upon “the inhabiters of the earth” and indicates that these three great “woes” are directly equivalent to the last three of the seven trumpet judgments.  There we read, “And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”  The closing phrase of the verse, “By reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound,” communicates the equivalency of the three great “woes” to the three trumpets that were “yet to sound.”

 

Revelation 9:1-12 presents the sounding and judgment of the “first woe – fifth trumpet” judgment, ending in verse 12 with the statement, “One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.”  Revelation 9:13 – 11:14 presents the sounding and judgment of the “second woe – sixth trumpet” judgment, ending in Revelation 11:14 with the statement, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”  Immediately following this, Revelation 11:15 announces the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”  Then verses 16-18 present a statement of praise unto the Lord God by the twenty-four elders that sit before the throne of God.  Finally, verse 19 presents a scene in heaven concerning the opening of the temple in heaven.

 

What is interesting with this announcement is that it does not appear to reveal a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth,” but rather presents a glorious praise of the Lord our God.  However, this declaration of glorious praise is important for our understanding concerning the “third woe – seventh judgment” judgment.  Revelation 12 presents a form of “parable” concerning the relationship between the children of Israel, the Messiah’s incarnation, and the devil.  Involved in this, Revelation 12:9 states, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” 

 

Revelation 12:10-11 then continues, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”  In verse 10 we find a similar glorious praise of the Lord our God as was found in Revelation 11:15 at the sounding of the “third woe – seventh trumpet.”  This similarity between Revelation 11:15 & 12:10 seems to create a link between the two passages and their context. 

 

Then Revelation 11:16 proceeds with a pronouncement of great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea,” which is similar to and appears to create a connection with the original pronouncement of the three “woes” in Revelation 8:13.  Thus we read in Revelation 11:16, “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”  This then appears to reveal the nature of the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment.  It is the permanent casting out of the devil from any entrance into heaven, even as “the accuser of our brethren,” which brings forth great joy in heaven.  It is also the casting forth of the devil unto the earth, “having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time,” which brings forth a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth.” 

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Concerning the third “woe” of Revelation,

 

Revelation 8:1 presents the opening of the seventh seal judgment, then verse 2 reveals that seven angels stood before God, “and to them were given seven trumpets.”  Revelation 8:7-12 then presents the sounding of the first four of those trumpets.  Immediately following the sounding of the fourth trumpet judgment, Revelation 8:13 pronounces three great “woes” upon “the inhabiters of the earth” and indicates that these three great “woes” are directly equivalent to the last three of the seven trumpet judgments.  There we read, “And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”  The closing phrase of the verse, “By reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound,” communicates the equivalency of the three great “woes” to the three trumpets that were “yet to sound.”

 

Revelation 9:1-12 presents the sounding and judgment of the “first woe – fifth trumpet” judgment, ending in verse 12 with the statement, “One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.”  Revelation 9:13 – 11:14 presents the sounding and judgment of the “second woe – sixth trumpet” judgment, ending in Revelation 11:14 with the statement, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”  Immediately following this, Revelation 11:15 announces the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”  Then verses 16-18 present a statement of praise unto the Lord God by the twenty-four elders that sit before the throne of God.  Finally, verse 19 presents a scene in heaven concerning the opening of the temple in heaven.

 

What is interesting with this announcement is that it does not appear to reveal a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth,” but rather presents a glorious praise of the Lord our God.  However, this declaration of glorious praise is important for our understanding concerning the “third woe – seventh judgment” judgment.  Revelation 12 presents a form of “parable” concerning the relationship between the children of Israel, the Messiah’s incarnation, and the devil.  Involved in this, Revelation 12:9 states, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” 

 

Revelation 12:10-11 then continues, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”  In verse 10 we find a similar glorious praise of the Lord our God as was found in Revelation 11:15 at the sounding of the “third woe – seventh trumpet.”  This similarity between Revelation 11:15 & 12:10 seems to create a link between the two passages and their context. 

 

Then Revelation 11:16 proceeds with a pronouncement of great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea,” which is similar to and appears to create a connection with the original pronouncement of the three “woes” in Revelation 8:13.  Thus we read in Revelation 11:16, “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”  This then appears to reveal the nature of the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment.  It is the permanent casting out of the devil from any entrance into heaven, even as “the accuser of our brethren,” which brings forth great joy in heaven.  It is also the casting forth of the devil unto the earth, “having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time,” which brings forth a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth.” 

Amen! 

The devil being cast to the earth is the third woe judgment on the earth and it will last for a times, times and half a time or 3.5 years. Revelation 11:14 is the mid point of the tribulation.

 

Revelation 12:13–14 KJV

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30 and Revelation 12:14. I believe God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3) When the lord comes down and splits the mount of olives to make a way of escape Zechariah 14:1-5a.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Glad Pastor Markle there responded, saved me the trouble of writing all that out. LOL. That is what I intended in my first post. Just as the seals open up to the trumpet judgments, the final trump opens the vial judgments, and the 3rd woe is the entire series of the 7 vials which begins with the dragon being cast out unto the earth.

I have a slightly different perspective though on America's role, and where God hides Israel for the 3 1/2 years and how and what He feeds them with. Remember how he fed them in the wilderness during the Exodus! Remember the treasures of the snow in Job, and the hail stones that fall during the tribulation while the rivers and waters are polluted! I'll be back later to expound.

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Glad Pastor Markle there responded, saved me the trouble of writing all that out. LOL. That is what I intended in my first post. Just as the seals open up to the trumpet judgments, the final trump opens the vial judgments, and the 3rd woe is the entire series of the 7 vials which begins with the dragon being cast out unto the earth.

I have a slightly different perspective though on America's role, and where God hides Israel for the 3 1/2 years and how and what He feeds them with. Remember how he fed them in the wilderness during the Exodus! Remember the treasures of the snow in Job, and the hail stones that fall during the tribulation while the rivers and waters are polluted! I'll be back later to expound.

Jeremiah 6:21–23 KJV

21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

 

God will call a great nation from the other side of the earth when the Russian alliance comes down from the north. Remember the woman (Israel) is carried away by the great eagle Revelation 12:14.

 

Isaiah 5:24–30 KJV

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

 

When the judgment by fire comes and the sky is darkened over Israel (6th seal) God will call a country from the end of the earth to come to Israel and carry away a prey safely. It will be that great eagle of America.

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Jeremiah 6:21–23 KJV

21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

 

God will call a great nation from the other side of the earth when the Russian alliance comes down from the north. Remember the woman (Israel) is carried away by the great eagle Revelation 12:14.

 

Isaiah 5:24–30 KJV

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

 

When the judgment by fire comes and the sky is darkened over Israel (6th seal) God will call a country from the end of the earth to come to Israel and carry away a prey safely. It will be that great eagle of America.

As much as I would like to see it happen that way, I don't believe that's what the scriptures actually say.

 

*Jeremiah is a reference to the Chaldeans. If you notice, the "people of the north" described in v. 21 are actually against Israel (v. 23)

 

*Isaiah 5 where the "hissing" is mentioned is derived from an old custom of gathering bees back to their place. This is where God gathers the nations against Israel. The Bible makes it clear that all nations will hate and attack Israel in the end, including America, and considering how much of Rome that America has incorporated into its politics, legal system, religion, money, it is apparent that America is the daughter of Babylon, and unlikely to be of help to Israel when it matters and even now, relations between Israel and the US are dwindling. Every US president since FDR has advocated for a one world order, and Israel and the church are an obstacle to that purpose. Why does America now support Israel? It is based 2 things, on one side, there are Bible believers that shout that God will bless them that bless Israel. When the church is gone, America will have no moral voice of reason for defending Israel. The other reason is for the corrupt bankers and assets that Israel holds which America sees as profitable in part for their continued economic prosperity. But only the first reason would be why America would feel any moral obligation to defend Israel and once that voice is gone, so is the moral support for Israel.

 

*If you read Rev 12 carefully, it is a recapitulation of the Exodus, with the exodus being a type of their future deliverance. How did Israel escape? They escaped on foot and in their own chariots (granted, in the last days, the method of transportation will have a little more technology), and in Ex 19:4 God says that He delivered Israel by an eagles wings.,Read Hosea 2:11-14 with Deut 32:11 as well. Thus going by the law of first mention, the eagles wings of Rev 12 can not be America. Furthermore, when they flee, the manner in which they flee is "like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.." Zech 14:5. 

 

Something to notice interesting in Matthew is that Jesus says pray that your FLIGHT not be on the Sabbath. Israel has their own major flight companies, but their flights are grounded on the Sabbath

 

The place where God feeds them and hides them is listed in Micah 7:14-15, Jer 50:19,20, Ezekial 20:30-37, and I Sam 25:2
 

"Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things" Micah 7:14-15

 

"And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead. In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve." Jer 50:19-20

 

And he feeds them from the hail. Notice in the OT when he fed them in the wilderness the manna melted after appearing in a hoary frost (Exodus 16), and now read Job 38:22--23: 

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?"

 

As much as I would like it to be America, I think America will be the opposite of what many think her intentions are. America is the most powerful influential nation to bring about the one world order for now. The 3 largest holders of US debt are China, Japan, and England. We know that China is one of the kings of the east that attacks Israel via the river Euphrates (Rev 9 and 16) and China opposes every UN resolution there is regarding Israel. England although assisting Israel through the Balfour declaration, reneged on most of it under Churchill who limited their borders to the current tiny area they have today, and many times during WW 1, Churchill turned Jews away from England and sent them back to their persecutors. So with China and England's history with Israel, their current holdings of our debt, and Israel being an obstacle to "world peace" it is more likely that America will side with Israel's enemies during the tribulation

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As much as I would like to see it happen that way, I don't believe that's what the scriptures actually say.

 

*Jeremiah is a reference to the Chaldeans. If you notice, the "people of the north" described in v. 21 are actually against Israel (v. 23)

 

*Isaiah 5 where the "hissing" is mentioned is derived from an old custom of gathering bees back to their place. This is where God gathers the nations against Israel. The Bible makes it clear that all nations will hate and attack Israel in the end, including America, and considering how much of Rome that America has incorporated into its politics, legal system, religion, money, it is apparent that America is the daughter of Babylon, and unlikely to be of help to Israel when it matters and even now, relations between Israel and the US are dwindling. Every US president since FDR has advocated for a one world order, and Israel and the church are an obstacle to that purpose. Why does America now support Israel? It is based 2 things, on one side, there are Bible believers that shout that God will bless them that bless Israel. When the church is gone, America will have no moral voice of reason for defending Israel. The other reason is for the corrupt bankers and assets that Israel holds which America sees as profitable in part for their continued economic prosperity. But only the first reason would be why America would feel any moral obligation to defend Israel and once that voice is gone, so is the moral support for Israel.

 

*If you read Rev 12 carefully, it is a recapitulation of the Exodus, with the exodus being a type of their future deliverance. How did Israel escape? They escaped on foot and in their own chariots (granted, in the last days, the method of transportation will have a little more technology), and in Ex 19:4 God says that He delivered Israel by an eagles wings.,Read Hosea 2:11-14 with Deut 32:11 as well. Thus going by the law of first mention, the eagles wings of Rev 12 can not be America. Furthermore, when they flee, the manner in which they flee is "like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.." Zech 14:5. 

 

Something to notice interesting in Matthew is that Jesus says pray that your FLIGHT not be on the Sabbath. Israel has their own major flight companies, but their flights are grounded on the Sabbath

 

The place where God feeds them and hides them is listed in Micah 7:14-15, Jer 50:19,20, Ezekial 20:30-37, and I Sam 25:2
 

"Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things" Micah 7:14-15

 

"And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead. In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve." Jer 50:19-20

 

And he feeds them from the hail. Notice in the OT when he fed them in the wilderness the manna melted after appearing in a hoary frost (Exodus 16), and now read Job 38:22--23: 

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?"

 

As much as I would like it to be America, I think America will be the opposite of what many think her intentions are. America is the most powerful influential nation to bring about the one world order for now. The 3 largest holders of US debt are China, Japan, and England. We know that China is one of the kings of the east that attacks Israel via the river Euphrates (Rev 9 and 16) and China opposes every UN resolution there is regarding Israel. England although assisting Israel through the Balfour declaration, reneged on most of it under Churchill who limited their borders to the current tiny area they have today, and many times during WW 1, Churchill turned Jews away from England and sent them back to their persecutors. So with China and England's history with Israel, their current holdings of our debt, and Israel being an obstacle to "world peace" it is more likely that America will side with Israel's enemies during the tribulation

 

 

(((Dr James A the Babylonians were east from Israel. Moscow is directly north of Jerusalem)))

 

(((America will support Israel because God calls them too. )))

 

(((America is the daughter of Babylon because that is where most of Zion lives now that the Jews have gone home to Israel form the Russian north. See Zechariah 2:6-7)))

 

Zechariah prophesied that when Israel returned to the land and Jerusalem outgrew its walls as it does today, the Lord will return. He will be a burning fire who will destroy Israel’s enemies, but unfortunately, He will also destroy Israel’s unholy people, those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Zechariah 2:6–7 KJV

6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

 

Now that over one and a quarter million Jews have returned to Israel from Russia, we know that Russia is the land of the north spoken of by the prophets. In verse seven, Zechariah warned another group of Jews to go home to Israel when the Russian Jews return. It is the six million Jews in America that Zechariah is telling to go home from the daughter of Babylon. Why? The American Jews are the last large population of Jews outside of Israel. The presence of the Jews in America indicates that America is the daughter of Babylon.

 

(((Dr James A only the women and children will be evacuated by the eagle of America. The men will remain in Israel to fight until the antichrist wins and turns against them. Then all the nations will come against Israel and surround it. See Zechariah 14:1-5a

 

Zechariah 14:1–5a KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided

in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal.

 

Zechariah saw a vision of Jewish women being rescued. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come against Israel because they will not worship him or his image. As the armies of the world close in on the remnant of Israel, everything looks lost and hopeless.

However, at that time, the Lord Jesus will help Israel by making a way of escape. Jesus will split the Mount of Olives from east to west so that it forms a great valley when the two halves of the Mount of Olives move north and south. Israel will flee down that valley to the east while the armies of the world are stranded on the top of the Mount of Olives and all around Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 12:15–17 KJV

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Satan will send a great army of soldiers to pursue the fleeing Jews. Do you remember what happened to the king of Egypt’s armies when they chased Israel through the divided Red Sea in the book of Exodus? (See Exodus 14:21–31.) Something similar is going to happen again. When the army of the Antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow them, infuriating Satan.

 

Isaiah 16:1–5 KJV

1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

 

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is going to sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus comes to Israel to split the Mount of Olives so that Israel can flee from the dragon and the Antichrist’s army. Israel will go east, down the Lord’s valley, cross the Jordan River, turn right, and travel about one-third of the way down the other side of the Dead Sea to the river ford or the river crossing on the Arnon River in the country of Jordan and stay with the survivors of Moab.

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Seeing that America has officially, basically rejected Israel, unless something very amazing happens to cause our government to again fully support Israel, I can't see America saving them. No, I believe America will, as a nation, continue to reject Jesus, and Israel along with Him. I don't hold to the idea that somehow America will be some great God-fearing nation as we enter into the tribulation time. In fact, I believe that if antichrist was actively seeking to rule the world today, a majority of Americans, including many churches and the gvernment, would fully support and follow him.

 

I have never believed Obama was the Antichrist, but I DO believe he makes a great picture of how many will blindly follow the Antichrist, and give him all their loyalty with no regard as to who he might really be. America is already prepared to follow the devil himself to hell, should he step forward and call.

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Seeing that America has officially, basically rejected Israel, unless something very amazing happens to cause our government to again fully support Israel, I can't see America saving them. No, I believe America will, as a nation, continue to reject Jesus, and Israel along with Him. I don't hold to the idea that somehow America will be some great God-fearing nation as we enter into the tribulation time. In fact, I believe that if antichrist was actively seeking to rule the world today, a majority of Americans, including many churches and the gvernment, would fully support and follow him.

 

I have never believed Obama was the Antichrist, but I DO believe he makes a great picture of how many will blindly follow the Antichrist, and give him all their loyalty with no regard as to who he might really be. America is already prepared to follow the devil himself to hell, should he step forward and call.

 

Would you call the rapture of the church amazing enough.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6–12 KJV

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in
his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
38     AMERICA’S LAST WARNING
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul explains that someone is restraining the Antichrist. When that someone is removed from the scene, the Antichrist will come to power. The Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13–16). This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption the same way that the proper amount of salt preserves country ham. When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed
and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven. Paul also explains that God will cause everyone who has heard and rejected the truth of the gospel to believe the lie of the Antichrist. Therefore America will follow the antichrist.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Paul explains that someone is restraining the Antichrist. When that someone is removed from the scene, the Antichrist will come to power. The Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13–16). This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption the same way that the proper amount of salt preserves country ham. When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed
and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven. Paul also explains that God will cause everyone who has heard and rejected the truth of the gospel to believe the lie of the Antichrist. Therefore America will follow the antichrist.

I'm curious: if the Holy Spirit if the one restraining the Antichrist, and is taken away, whith what will the tribulation saints be sealed with? The job of the Spirit is to seal believers, so He will, it seems, still be active, meaning it isn't he that is restraining.

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I'm curious: if the Holy Spirit if the one restraining the Antichrist, and is taken away, whith what will the tribulation saints be sealed with? The job of the Spirit is to seal believers, so He will, it seems, still be active, meaning it isn't he that is restraining.

John 16:7-8 tells us that the comforter reproves sin when he comes into the believers. Before Jesus came, the Old Testament saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit. It will be like that in the tribulation period. The 144000 Jews will be sealed for a purpose as the Old Testament saints were.

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I'm curious: if the Holy Spirit if the one restraining the Antichrist, and is taken away, whith what will the tribulation saints be sealed with? The job of the Spirit is to seal believers, so He will, it seems, still be active, meaning it isn't he that is restraining.

First, Eric is right about those who do not believe being deceived because they rejected the truth:

 

 

 

 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2:10-12

"And all they that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"-Rev 13:8

 

 

Second, believers are n
ot
sealed in the tribulation as they are in the
NT
church age. Those sealed in the tribulation are sealed with a special seal in their foreheads "And it was commanded them they should n
ot
hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men who have n
ot
the seal of God in their foreheads" Rev 9:4, and "He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and I will write upon him my new name" Rev 3:12.

Revelation shows that there are tribulation saints that are caught up during the tribulation (Rev 7:14), and the rest of those who did not believe in Christ during the ministry of the 2 witnesses and 144,000 reject Christ for the duration of the tribulation. Rev 9:20, Rev 16:9-10.

 

As unpopular as this is, the command during the tribulation is to "endure to the end" for deliverance. Matthew 24:13. "He that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Rev 2:26. "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father and before his angels" Rev 3:5. "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire, and them that gotten the victory of the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass having the harps of God" Rev 15:2.

 

"And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of his testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11.

 

There is no seal during the tribulation as there is the church saints as in Eph 4:30 and 1:13. Victory during the tribulation is by overcoming the beast through the blood of the Lamb which leads to being martyred. The only ones who don't see martydom are the elect of Israel that God miraculously shields from the dragon. Rev 12:6, 14.

Edited by DrJamesA
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First, Eric is right about those who do not believe being deceived because they rejected the truth:

 

 

 

 

 

Revelation shows that there are tribulation saints that are caught up during the tribulation (Rev 7:14), and the rest of those who did not believe in Christ during the ministry of the 2 witnesses and 144,000 reject Christ for the duration of the tribulation. Rev 9:20, Rev 16:9-10.

 

As unpopular as this is, the command during the tribulation is to "endure to the end" for deliverance. Matthew 24:13. "He that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Rev 2:26. "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father and before his angels" Rev 3:5. "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire, and them that gotten the victory of the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass having the harps of God" Rev 15:2.

 

"And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of his testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11.

 

There is no seal during the tribulation as there is the church saints as in Eph 4:30 and 1:13. Victory during the tribulation is by overcoming the beast through the blood of the Lamb which leads to being martyred. The only ones who don't see martydom are the elect of Israel that God miraculously shields from the dragon. Rev 12:6, 14.

Dr James A,

 

Please look at post 9 and give your input.

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First, Eric is right about those who do not believe being deceived because they rejected the truth:

So, I am deceived because all through the Bible, the New Testament, the ONLY seal given for believers is the Holy Spirit. But, you say there is a special seal, something different, though unmentioned, because it is mentioned as being in their foreheads. I see no reason to believe anything but what is already spelled out in the Bible-the job of the Holy Spirit is to seal believers.

 

Also, again, we assume it is the Spirit that will be taken out of the way, yet again, it is not said. Where in Scripture is it said to tbe the job of the Holy Spirit to keep Satan from taking over? In fact, it is MIchael, the prince who is the only one ever seen disputing with Satan, save for Jesus Himself, both in Daniel and Jude. Seems he would be a better candidate for being the one who now letteth until he is taken out of the way.

   In fact, the wording is kind of odd if it IS the Spirit, because He, being God, the third person of the Godhead, would not need to be 'taken out of the way", but would merely remove Himself. Someone more under authority would be 'taken out of the way'. It implies being given direction to move, not moving of one's own volition.

 

MInd you, I am not arguing timing of the rapture here, just saying that our belief of the Spirit holding back Antichrist is based upon assumption, not scripture, and if He seals, then there's no reason to believe there could be any other sealing. It is the possesion of the Holy Ghost that makes one a saint-there can be no saint without Him, yet we clearly see saints mentioned during the tribulation period.  The Spirit also teaches us, speaks to us, guides us, and keeps us aright, and empowers us for service-if those saints haven't the direction and power of the Spirit, how can they remain right before the Lord, and how will they have power to be witnesses to others.

 

And what of the two witnesses? Where will they receive their power to do the wonders and works they do? Those powers were always through the Spirit. Will they possess these powers inherently, with no control, and no God-given wisdom on their proper use?

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John 16:7-8 tells us that the comforter reproves sin when he comes into the believers. Before Jesus came, the Old Testament saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit. It will be like that in the tribulation period. The 144000 Jews will be sealed for a purpose as the Old Testament saints were.

If they are not sealed, then they will, of necessity, need to keep the Law perfectly to be saved. Jesus, as Saviour, came and died for the sin of the world. Those who receive Him as Saviour receive the Holy Ghost to seal them, and thus, free them frm the law. If there is no Spirit, then Jesus' sacrifice is of no avail to them and they must then keep the law. Without the Spirit, one can't enter into Heaven-the OT righteous dead entered into Paradise, not Heaven, until Christ died and preached to them. So, these 144,000, and whoever else is converted by them, will die and enter Paradise, not Heaven, because they have not a new life within them. Christ and the Spirit are a package deal-the Spirit is the New Man. 

 

OT saints weren't sealed at all- Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

 

Here, all a righteius man had to do was turn and commit sin, and he would die in his sin if he didn't turn again. It was based on living a righteous life, keeping the law with faith, keeping with the sacrifices, etc. If one lived righteously for years, but at the end fell into sin, he would die in his sins and be lost.

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So, I am deceived because all through the Bible, the New Testament, the ONLY seal given for believers is the Holy Spirit. But, you say there is a special seal, something different, though unmentioned, because it is mentioned as being in their foreheads. I see no reason to believe anything but what is already spelled out in the Bible-the job of the Holy Spirit is to seal believers.

 

Also, again, we assume it is the Spirit that will be taken out of the way, yet again, it is not said. Where in Scripture is it said to tbe the job of the Holy Spirit to keep Satan from taking over? In fact, it is MIchael, the prince who is the only one ever seen disputing with Satan, save for Jesus Himself, both in Daniel and Jude. Seems he would be a better candidate for being the one who now letteth until he is taken out of the way.

   In fact, the wording is kind of odd if it IS the Spirit, because He, being God, the third person of the Godhead, would not need to be 'taken out of the way", but would merely remove Himself. Someone more under authority would be 'taken out of the way'. It implies being given direction to move, not moving of one's own volition.

 

MInd you, I am not arguing timing of the rapture here, just saying that our belief of the Spirit holding back Antichrist is based upon assumption, not scripture, and if He seals, then there's no reason to believe there could be any other sealing. It is the possesion of the Holy Ghost that makes one a saint-there can be no saint without Him, yet we clearly see saints mentioned during the tribulation period.  The Spirit also teaches us, speaks to us, guides us, and keeps us aright, and empowers us for service-if those saints haven't the direction and power of the Spirit, how can they remain right before the Lord, and how will they have power to be witnesses to others.

 

And what of the two witnesses? Where will they receive their power to do the wonders and works they do? Those powers were always through the Spirit. Will they possess these powers inherently, with no control, and no God-given wisdom on their proper use?

No where in the NT prior to Revelation, is a believer said to have a name "written in their foreheads" as evidence of being sealed by the Holy Spirit. This is the description however,of believers during the tribulation (just one more evidence that the church doesn't go through the tribulation as well). 

Usage of the word "saint" doesn't mean "sealed". Being called a saint is not limited to the church age, the term was also used to describe OT believers. 2 Chron 6:41, Job 5:1, Ps 16:3, Ps 30:4, Ps 52:9, Ps 149:1. And notice that "many of the body of the SAINTS arose" after the resurrection of Christ, (Matt 27:52) BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given at Pentacost in Acts 2.

 

Now regarding 2 Thess 2, the "restrainer", whoever this restrainer was has restrained the total dominance of lawlessness on this entire earth. This restraint with man goes all the way back to Genesis 6:2 where God said "My Spirit will not always strive with man". The Holy Spirit is the only one that has that kind of power. 

Michael is the archangel to Israel (Dan 12:1). Michael never had the power to fight Satan as seen in Daniel 10:13 where he was held up for 3 weeks. Jude also states that Michael did not "bring a railing accusation against him {Satan} but said 'the Lord rebuke thee'" Jude 9.

 

Therefore, to be taken OUT OF the way, someone had to be IN THE WAY in the first place, and that person was clearly not MIchael the archangel. Michael is not given authority to battle against Satan until the middle of tribulation in Rev 12:7. Furthermore, 2 Thess 2:7 says "until he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY". How would  Michael being "taken out of the way" permit the lawlessness of the antichrist to flourish? Not only is that impossibe given the above verses, but Michael is PARTICIPATING in war against Satan in Rev 12:9, not being taken out of the way, and as I said, this is the first time where Michael is given limited authority over the dragon, and in this instant, it is to remove Satan from where he had previously had access to heaven (Zech 3:1).

 

And just as you mentioned Ezek 3, the tribulation is a return to that which is why it is called the time of Jacob's trouble, and where Israel is to "finish the transgression". This is why you see works mixed with faith, and keeping of the OT commandments in Revelation:

 

*These are they which keep the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12

*Blessed is he that watcheth AND KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS" Rev 16:15. No where in the epistles is the church told to keep their garments

*"And they sing the SONG OF MOSES the servant of God, and of the Lamb" Rev 15:3. Who sings this song? Those who "had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" 15:2

*"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to eat of the tree of life" Rev 22:14 with Rev 2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

 

During the tribulation, evidence that one believes in Christ is demonstrated by being killed for it. "And when he opened the 5th seal, I saw under the alter them there were slain for the word of God, and the testimony which they held" Rev 6:9, "And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet a little seaon until their fellowservants also, and their brethren that should be killed as they were should be fulfilledf" 6:11. "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life" Rev 2:10; "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11. 

 

The theme for the believer in Revelation is SURVIVAL, the theme in the church age is "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature". You don't see that command given to any believer in the tribulation. In fact, you see the gospel being delivered by an ANGEL in Revelation 14. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH unto them that dwell on the earth" 14:6. Now why would that be necessary if the church was there? or if that were the mission of believers during that time?

 

This is why it is important to understand Daniel's 70th week, and how end times is strictly revolved around the nation of Israel. Only with that understand can one see the role of the Jewish churches in Rev 2-3, and properly understand the book of Hebrews where difficult passages in ch 6 and 10, and Matthew 24 ('he that endureth to the end shall be saved"),  relate to tribulation saints and not the church, and how Revelation goes back to finish where Israel left off to finish the 70th week which is why the events and admonitions of the tribulation do not come with the same prescriptions as the church age.

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(((Dr James A the Babylonians were east from Israel. Moscow is directly north of Jerusalem)))

This is assuming that the verse in question was actually talking about Moscow (Gog) and not the Chaldeans, not sure which reference or statement you are reffering to here though. But the Chaldeans were a precursor to the Babylonians and both are north of Israel.

(((America will support Israel because God calls them too. )))

I really wouldn't offer any different explanation than I already gave for the reason that America isn't going to be involved in assisting Israel. That evidence from Exodus 19:4 shows the law of first mention regarding the eagles wings is a reference to God Himself orchestrating their deliverance into the wilderness. He didn't use any other nation to assist Him in their deliverance from Pharoah and He won't use any other assistance in Rev 12 accept the same manner of help from the earth that He caused in Exodus.

(((America is the daughter of Babylon because that is where most of Zion lives now that the Jews have gone home to Israel form the Russian north. See Zechariah 2:6-7)))

Being the daughter of Babylon is not a good thing. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that America inherited that title because of housing the Jews, and as I said, that's not a good title to have. Notice the double references to their fall in Rev 14:8 "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rome does not have near the influence today that America. They have the money and the religious influence, but there are certain things that describe the other Babylon that doesn't fit Rome, like the "slaves" of Rev 18:13. In fact, if you study all of the items that this city is notorious for from Rev 18:12-14, you will find several other nations whom dominate those categories that are under Roman influence.
You have to keep in mind that just because Rev 17 clearly identifies the beast as Rome, doesn't mean that the seat has to be IN ROME, this is evident by the fact that Jesus gives other locations for where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13 (Pergamos), and during the entire Roman Empire, many provinces were considered Roman territory (Constantinople for example) even though they were not technically Rome/Italy proper. America is clearly a part of the revived Roman Empire, which is why God tells his people to come out from her. Why would God tell his people to come out from a place (Rev 18:4, Zech 2:7) if He was going to use that place to help her?

Zechariah prophesied that when Israel returned to the land and Jerusalem outgrew its walls as it does today, the Lord will return. He will be a burning fire who will destroy Israel’s enemies, but unfortunately, He will also destroy Israel’s unholy people, those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Zechariah 2:6–7 KJV
6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

Again, it says they dwell with the daughter of Babylon, not that the daughter helps them. Clearly the reason God wants them to leave is to only avoid being a partaker of her sins, but because she WONT help her.


Now that over one and a quarter million Jews have returned to Israel from Russia, we know that Russia is the land of the north spoken of by the prophets. In verse seven, Zechariah warned another group of Jews to go home to Israel when the Russian Jews return. It is the six million Jews in America that Zechariah is telling to go home from the daughter of Babylon. Why? The American Jews are the last large population of Jews outside of Israel. The presence of the Jews in America indicates that America is the daughter of Babylon.

(((Dr James A only the women and children will be evacuated by the eagle of America. The men will remain in Israel to fight until the antichrist wins and turns against them. Then all the nations will come against Israel and surround it. See Zechariah 14:1-5a

Zechariah 14:1–5a KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal.

Zechariah saw a vision of Jewish women being rescued. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come against Israel because they will not worship him or his image. As the armies of the world close in on the remnant of Israel, everything looks lost and hopeless.
However, at that time, the Lord Jesus will help Israel by making a way of escape. Jesus will split the Mount of Olives from east to west so that it forms a great valley when the two halves of the Mount of Olives move north and south. Israel will flee down that valley to the east while the armies of the world are stranded on the top of the Mount of Olives and all around Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:15–17 KJV
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan will send a great army of soldiers to pursue the fleeing Jews. Do you remember what happened to the king of Egypt’s armies when they chased Israel through the divided Red Sea in the book of Exodus? (See Exodus 14:21–31.) Something similar is going to happen again. When the army of the Antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow them, infuriating Satan.

Isaiah 16:1–5 KJV
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is going to sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus comes to Israel to split the Mount of Olives so that Israel can flee from the dragon and the Antichrist’s army. Israel will go east, down the Lord’s valley, cross the Jordan River, turn right, and travel about one-third of the way down the other side of the Dead Sea to the river ford or the river crossing on the Arnon River in the country of Jordan and stay with the survivors of Moab.

The rest of that I am in agreement between here and my last comment, the only thing I am not in agreement with is any role that America would have in that context.

Edited by DrJamesA
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This is assuming that the verse in question was actually talking about Moscow (Gog) and not the Chaldeans, not sure which reference or statement you are reffering to here though. But the Chaldeans were a precursor to the Babylonians and both are north of Israel.

I really wouldn't offer any different explanation than I already gave for the reason that America isn't going to be involved in assisting Israel. That evidence from Exodus 19:4 shows the law of first mention regarding the eagles wings is a reference to God Himself orchestrating their deliverance into the wilderness. He didn't use any other nation to assist Him in their deliverance from Pharoah and He won't use any other assistance in Rev 12 accept the same manner of help from the earth that He caused in Exodus.

Being the daughter of Babylon is not a good thing. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that America inherited that title because of housing the Jews, and as I said, that's not a good title to have. Notice the double references to their fall in Rev 14:8 "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rome does not have near the influence today that America. They have the money and the religious influence, but there are certain things that describe the other Babylon that doesn't fit Rome, like the "slaves" of Rev 18:13. In fact, if you study all of the items that this city is notorious for from Rev 18:12-14, you will find several other nations whom dominate those categories that are under Roman influence.
You have to keep in mind that just because Rev 17 clearly identifies the beast as Rome, doesn't mean that the seat has to be IN ROME, this is evident by the fact that Jesus gives other locations for where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13 (Pergamos), and during the entire Roman Empire, many provinces were considered Roman territory (Constantinople for example) even though they were not technically Rome/Italy proper. America is clearly a part of the revived Roman Empire, which is why God tells his people to come out from her. Why would God tell his people to come out from a place (Rev 18:4, Zech 2:7) if He was going to use that place to help her?

Again, it says they dwell with the daughter of Babylon, not that the daughter helps them. Clearly the reason God wants them to leave is to only avoid being a partaker of her sins, but because she WONT help her.

The rest of that I am in agreement between here and my last comment, the only thing I am not in agreement with is any role that America would have in that context.

Dr James A,

 

The city of Babylon is about 500 miles directly east of Jerusalem.

 

PAUL INDICATES THAT sudden destruction will come upon Israel after the Antichrist signs the peace treaty with many to divide the land of Israel. The Jews will finally feel safe. When the Jews feel safe, Ezekiel 38:4 explains that God will put a hook in the jaw of Magog or Russia and draw her and the Islamic alliance to attack Israel.

 

Daniel 11:36–45 KJV

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt him- self, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south((Egypt)) push at him((666)): and the king of the north ((Syria))shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land((Israel)), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.((Jordan))

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east((Persia)) and out of the north((Russia)) shall trouble him: therefore he((666)) shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he((666)) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

During the tribulation the antichrist will put his base camp in Israel after destroying Syria and Egypt. When God puts a hook in the Jaw of Russia and draws it to Israel, the armies of the antichrist will already be there in Israel. The seat of the beast is in Israel during the wars of the tribulation.

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