Jump to content
Online Baptist Community

David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article


Recommended Posts

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

HC I guess it would have just been nicer IMO if Cloud would have said his piece about the speakers at the Sword without actually mentioning names.

Then it would be up to each person to look up the people and figure out what they want to do with the information.

When he personally named the names, he was basically calling out each man individually....which to me crossed the line. But then, that's just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Well, I know Bro. Cloud personally. And I know the pastor Kita is referencing. Both of these men have one goal in their lives: to love and serve the Lord with all their heart, soul, and might.

Both of these men preach God's Word without apology. And, in fact, have preached at the same conferences at our church (the same years, I mean). They preach in different manners, but they are both very interesting to hear, and God uses them mightily.

Bro. Cloud does not mince words. Pastor X doesn't either, but his approach is a bit different. And someone who doesn't know either of them could accuse both of them of being arrogant. But neither of them are. They are both uber busy men.

Again, I haven't read the article. I'm not really interested in reading it, especially after reading this thread. :icon_smile: And even though I know Pastor X preaches where he believes God would have him preach, I don't have a problem with Bro. Cloud calling him out for it. Why? Well, we do have the God-given right of free speech...and if we are to muzzle Bro. Cloud (or others like him) because we don't like that he chose someone we like to focus on and rebuke, as it were, then we will in turn be muzzled eventually.

Do I think it's gossip? No. I think it's a man who is sharing his heart - and I would be quite surprised if he hadn't already shared it with Pastor X. Do I think this thread is gossip? No (my earlier post was simply to point out the irony...). I think as Christians we should discuss this type of thing. We need to understand what is happening in Christianity today - from several perspectives.

Pastor X will not worry about criticism and neither will Bro. Cloud. They will both continue to serve the Lord.


Good thoughts!

We are in the day that the speaker gets attacked from within & from without.

I try hard not to attack the person, if I disagree just tell them I disagree & why I disagree If I think its false teaching, I will state that. Yet not saying anything about that persons intelligence or their comprehension skills, nor telling them they need to read their Bible. That helps no one.

I was once a member of a Baptist Group, & its not that other Baptist group whose name comes up every now & again. That was my 1st experience on a message board, & it seems most tried to provoke those they disagree with them. I suppose I picked up some of their ways. I've tried to shed them.

And if I may say this about the topic at hand, sometimes that person may know something that we are not aware of as yet. And I am not saying that's the case in this matter, for I know nothing about those people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Lady Administrators

I understand, Kita. And part of me agrees with you. Since I haven't read the article (is that me being lazy? :icon_smile: ), it can only be part - perhaps if I read the whole thing I would agree in entirety. Too, though, I think your reaction (as mine would have been) is also colored by your love for the man he named.

I think (and this is just my opinion) that one of the reasons Bro. Cloud says to read his books isn't so much that he thinks he's right (but of course he would...don't we all believe we are right when we are convinced of something in scripture?) as it is a way for a person to get to know Bro. Cloud's mind on things (and scripture as well) - and then, if there is still disagreement, so be it. If not, fine. KWIM? An article here or there doesn't completely do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Kitagrl, I guess I am close, but not exactly where you are on this topic. If there is a preacher (ministry, church, etc.) that compromises in a certain way (such as believes heresy on a fundamental of the faith, is involved with or endorses some kind of blatant evil), then I would want to know it. For example, I don't want to just know Universalists are heretics and they have such and such false beliefs, I also would like to know if someone is one (such as C.S. Lewis) and what he or she teaches on the subject. A general warning has its place, but if there are specific people (referring to preachers, teachers, churches, etc.) involved in a particular compromise, then it is worthwhile to know. For example, if I expose Robert Schuller's heresies, but never point out specifically who it is teaching these heresies, I am neglecting part of my job as a watchmen. Haven't you ever had people say amen whenever you point out sin and compromise - but then get weird when you name a preacher, author, etc. that they know actually involved in that compromise. In the Bible, they named false teachers, false brethren, heretics, etc.

That being said, I agree that we should not be painting everyone with the same broad brush, unless it is proven that person ALSO is iMVolved in that compromise. I think sometimes people draw lines for themselves (for various reasons) and can't handle when another sound believer does not draw the line in the exact same place. Is a particular preacher a heretic, is he involved in the same compromises, does he put his stamp of approval on something that the Word of God teaches is wrong? Then he should be marked, to use Scriptural language. But if it is just a matter of a preacher differing with me on a minor matter, on something not spelled out in Scripture, then I believe I am to let him stand before the Lord on his own account. I am not him. Maybe the Lord has convicted me to do or not do something another preacher does or does not, but ultimately the Lord is the one we are individually accountable to.

Hopefully, I did not make sense or contradict myself! If it is a matter of sin, false teachings, etc., we should give a warning. If it is a matter of personal opinion, personal convictions (but not a doctrinal area), then we should leave their ministry up to the Lord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Jerry, I think we agree...I'm fine with warning against heretical teachings. But personally knowing one of the pastors called out in Cloud's article, I feel it falls under the category of "disagreement" rather than "heresy" and therefore crossed a line.

It would be one thing to say "I don't agree with the Sword of the Lord. Here are the compromises the Sword group has made: "

It is another thing to say "I think the Sword of the Lord are compromisers AND here is a list of everyone who has preached there, and are therefore, also compromisers, including good IFB pastors of good IFB churches."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Yes, that's one thing I was saying earlier. It's one thing to practice separation, and to separate from compromisers, and even to personally separate those who don't practice separation in who they are involved with (ie. those in the Sword not separating from those they should) - but another another thing to blacklist someone who doesn't separate from the people I separate from, especially when it comes to second or third degree separation (as some may refer to it). If because of convictions about lack of separation on the part of the Sword, I choose not to read their material or directly support their ministry - due to my personal convictions - it is not up to me to be someone else's conscience and judge them for not drawing the same line. That's what it sounds like in this case. Brother Cloud has chosen to separate from the Sword, and cannot agree with anyone else who doesn't draw the same line - without proving that a particular individual is also involved in compromise.

An illustration, I have some books in my library from unsound people. Most are in unopened boxes that I once used for research purposes, and maybe some others I just never got around to personally checking out or making a decision on - but make note: these are obviously books I am not using at all, just packed away. Now let's say a brother comes over to visit, and starts perusing my library. We talk and something sparks an interest in a good book I got that maybe I never unpacked since my last move. He helps me go through some boxes trying to find this book, and instead finds Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, sees no warning against the book written in the cover (because I'm not using it or passing it on), then concludes I must be partial to Lewis or at least not separated from him, therefore I am a compromiser in some way - the opposite is true: I hate Lewis so much that I have such a hard time going through his material personally to mark the heresies; therefore have kept the book until one day I decide to do so. Now, he decides to separate from me, and expose other people that won't likewise do so. Its one thing to expose Lewis, even expose those who quote from him or refer to him in a positive light, but not be against anyone who may have a particular book in their library.

Maybe my illustration fits a little, or maybe I am just so far off that I am missing something, but just trying to understand/discuss the issues more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Though I have many of David Clouds sermons I have never listened to one nor read anything of his or read much about him. So my coming statement is not directed to him. But I have found through personal experience that those that demand separatism are usually the least separated, especially when they make a point of exposing those that "disagree" or share a slightly differing view point. When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

David Cloud is solid, and has many very excellent study materials. Don't throw out a solid ministry just because you differ with where he draws a particular line. If it wasn't for solid Bible teachers like Cloud, many more IFB individuals and churches would be by the wayside as well. His is a discernment ministry and it has its place for sure, regardless of whether someone might cross all their t's the same or not. Take what he presents, check it out with the Bible, and if it lines up, then hold to it - as you should do with any other sound Bible teacher or preacher. If something doesn't line up, then throw that part out - if a lot doesn't line up, then disregard that ministry. But if a lot of it lines up, then pray for discernment and wisdom** for what to do with what you think is not correct. If it is his personal opinion or conviction, but not a clear Bible principle, then take it as such - but if it is a clear Bible principle, then we need to heed it - regardless of our personal feelings about the source (providing the source is generally reliable - I am certainly not advocating dipping into the wells of infidelity or some wishy washy teacher to glean something to take with us. As they say: Eat the meat and spit out the bones - but if the meat is tainted, throw it out!).

**We should be praying for wisdom and discernment when studying the Bible and reading material by others anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

David Cloud is solid, and has many very excellent study materials. Don't throw out a solid ministry just because you differ with where he draws a particular line. If it wasn't for solid Bible teachers like Cloud, many more IFB individuals and churches would be by the wayside as well. His is a discernment ministry and it has its place for sure, regardless of whether someone might cross all their t's the same or not. Take what he presents, check it out with the Bible, and if it lines up, then hold to it - as you should do with any other sound Bible teacher or preacher. If something doesn't line up, then throw that part out - if a lot doesn't line up, then disregard that ministry. But if a lot of it lines up, then pray for discernment and wisdom** for what to do with what you think is not correct. If it is his personal opinion or conviction, but not a clear Bible principle, then take it as such - but if it is a clear Bible principle, then we need to heed it - regardless of our personal feelings about the source (providing the source is generally reliable - I am certainly not advocating dipping into the wells of infidelity or some wishy washy teacher to glean something to take with us. As they say: Eat the meat and spit out the bones - but if the meat is tainted, throw it out!).

**We should be praying for wisdom and discernment when studying the Bible and reading material by others anyway.


Exactly what I meant when I said:


When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

HC I guess it would have just been nicer IMO if Cloud would have said his piece about the speakers at the Sword without actually mentioning names.


That wouldn't be biblical nor serve any real purpose. Now, what exactly did Brother Cloud accuse your preacher friend of again???
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

While I was in the Air Force my home church got a new pastor. He was only there a short time, & he was sent on his way shortly, for he was not what he claimed to be. Accusing this church of teaching church of Christ doctrine, which it did not. I'm sure he slandered this church to anyone that would listen. Personally I felt sorry for the man, trying to be a Baptist pastor yet could not tell the difference between Baptist & church of Christ teachings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Lady Administrators

Though I have many of David Clouds sermons I have never listened to one nor read anything of his or read much about him. So my coming statement is not directed to him. But I have found through personal experience that those that demand separatism are usually the least separated, especially when they make a point of exposing those that "disagree" or share a slightly differing view point. When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.


Just so you know, David Cloud is definitely not one of the least separated. He does not expect of anyone what he doesn't practice himself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Fundamental Baptist Fellowship and Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International.

Unless an explanation of both these names and their groups is later in this thread, I just may have to Google them. So far, this is the only answer I've gotten to my serious question. Looks like folk don't know how to answer questions, only debate or rather, ahem, discuss. Seriously, thanks for telling me what the letters mean!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You know I think we probably agree 98% of the time but I just don't see that. That kind of thinking is one of the things that eventually can lead to pastors going astray. If they are only exposed to people that either say they are wonderful or horrible it can become a temptation to believe the people who say they are wonderful and ignore all criticism. I have seen pastors like that and I am sure you have too. If someone says they consider so and so to still be a good pastor but think they have a fault in a given area what is the great harm in that? We say and believe pastors are just men and fallible so what is the problem with publicly naming names and saying you think so and so is wrong in a given area? You may or may not agree on a particular issue but why is it necessary to sweep all disagreements under the rug and publicly pretend that there is no disagreement until things get so bad they explode?

This is not referring to this situation in particular as I do not and never have read the "sword of the Lord" nor do I really know that "crowd" and thus have no opinion one way or another. More of a general observation.

I totally agree with this post. Sweeping things under the rug is no way to live. If someone is wrong in a certain area, folk should know it. I'm not saying focus on it all the time, but folk do need to be warned/admonished that who they may listen to is off in an area or two, yes, even among Independent Baptists. As previously stated, I used to be in Easy Believism/Quick Prayerism. The LORD used His word, preached by some of His choice men, to get me out of that false doctrine/way of life, pardon the pun here!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To prove he stepped out of bounds would be to prove he was lying about this subject.

Excuse me, edited to add, or that he was wrong in the accusation made.

AMEN Brother Jerry!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.

I'm in the AMEN corner on some of these today! You're exactly right!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

Brother, right on target again! The SOTL is a hotbed of Easy Believism/Quick Prayerism. Another thing is, the SOTL claims to be an IFB publication, but they don't have an IFB as their editor. For that matter, are they even out of a local IFB church? I think they claim FRBC Murfreesboro somewhere/how, but just like a lot of "preachers" I've seen, just in name only.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It concerns me very much where a pastor has preached, or held the position of pastor, if he was to happen to preach in our church. In a previous post I stated a preacher that I knew quite well years ago had held the position of pastor in some very questionable churches, not knowing this I would have him, yet knowing it I would not allow him behind my pulpit.

I believe we are in an age, that many people firmly believes that you never to say one thing about a person unless its good. And If you can't say good about a person keep your mouth shut. Of course that comes from the liberals, for they want no one to warn anyone about them.

And of course, a person is not going to agree with anyone 100% of the time,

Unfortunately, folk still take what Grandma said, over what God says. Grandma has been quoted as saying "if ya cain't say anythin' good 'bout 'em, don't say nothin' at all!" Only thing is, God says among other things, to reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine. If someone's wrong in an area, folk need to be told and also to avoid said offender!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

So, if David Cloud is gossiping because of mentioning names, what's going on this thread? Just sayin...

(please know that I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed; but what's been said about David Cloud in this thread is of the same nature of the things he has said and been dissed as gossiping for)

AMEN Sis!
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Unless an explanation of both these names and their groups is later in this thread, I just may have to Google them. So far, this is the only answer I've gotten to my serious question. Looks like folk don't know how to answer questions, only debate or rather, ahem, discuss. Seriously, thanks for telling me what the letters mean!


No problem, these acronyms pop up everywhere. Yep, just Google them to get the info.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 34 Guests (See full list)

  • Recent Achievements

  • Tell a friend

    Love Online Baptist Community? Tell a friend!
  • Members

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Eagle One

      Havent been on for years, but have been studying with Jews for Jesus weekly Bible Study which has been wonderful.  Not sure any of your views on that group, but if you are from a Jewish background a great place to be grounded in the word and to learn.
      · 0 replies
    • Barbara Ann

      I am a researcher and writer at Watch Unto Prayer which I started 25 years ago. On this website there are many well-documented articles and audio programs by myself and other researchers whose ministry is to expose the endtime apostasy of the Church. Now more than ever Christians need information in order to identify and avoid the various deceptions that are in nearly all the churches.
      My husband and I attended the IFB Bible Baptist Church of James Knox a couple of years ago. We left the church after we were informed by the assistant pastor that we were not allowed to express views to other members that do not agree with the views of the pastor and leaders of the church. We were not introducing heresy but expressing our views concerning the State of Israel. We had never been in a church which forbade private conversations on issues where there are diverse opinions. This we recognized as cultlike control of church members. To inform Christians, my husband, who is also a researcher and writer, started a website on the subject: Zionism Exposed: A Watchman Ministry.
      · 0 replies
    • Free Spirit

      Jesus said:"I am the truth, the way, and the life. No man can come to The Father, but by Me."
      · 0 replies
    • Richg  »  BrotherTony

      Brother Tony, I read your reply on Anderson, I know you all think I'm argumentative but, when you don't agree.....the first thought I had is, I wish you would introduce me to the guy that hasn't sinned, maybe David, that had a man killed so he could commit adultery, yet, he was & is a man after Gods own heart, or maybe Paul the guy that persecuted and had Christians killed, or maybe Richg or Kent H, or even you ! I used to listen to personalities also when I was younger but today and for some time, my only concern is, does it line up with scripture & to me its hilarious that you think "I'm in a fix" LOL, I interpreted what we've discussed perfectly, not because I'm smart, but because with an open mind to things of God, its an easy read.
      · 1 reply
    • Richg  »  Jerry

      I thought you wanted me to stop talking to you !
      · 0 replies
  • Topics

×
×
  • Create New...