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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article


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I do not believe in easy believism or lack of repentance either. However if a pastor goes to the Sword Conference and preaches the CORRECT view of repentance or salvation...why would that be a bad thing? I think that is what the problem is here...if a man chooses to preach at the Sword Conference yet still maintains his integrity and his standards and his separation, then...????? Is it right that Cloud is discouraging churches from having this man in their pulpit?

I guess when it comes down to it, some here believe in secondary separation, and some do not. I have to say I don't necessarily believe in secondary separation. I do, if its extreme (for instance a pastor who were to preach in a Mormon church would be heretical and in that case, secondary separation is necessary) but I don't if its not extreme (for instance, if a pastor preaches in a church where the music is a little more contemporary than in that pastor's own church). In the first case, there is an obvious problem. In the second case, as long as the pastor himself and his own church is right, I don't see why its anybody's concern if he decides to preach in a church that may have a different music standard within the IFB circle (i.e. within reason...i.e. not talking rock concerts, here.). And I don't see a need to separate from the good pastor over that sort of thing.

The second example is, I feel, similar to what has happened in this particular article by David Cloud.


I would say if a pastor spoke at a conference (fellowship, etc.) to present an error to that conference then that would be between the speaker and the Lord. If he spoke on Biblical salvation verses easy believism or spoke out against CCM at the conference why would anyone castigate him? Why would that individual pastor's faithfulness, separation, or personal walk be called into question? However, if he cheerfully accepted a speaking role and told everyone things are wonderful when gross misdirection (away from Biblical teaching) were going on, then; he is complicit in error and needs rebuke. Where will the pastor of a successful IFB church receive rebuke when he begins to go astray?
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So, if David Cloud is gossiping because of mentioning names, what's going on this thread? Just sayin...

(please know that I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed; but what's been said about David Cloud in this thread is of the same nature of the things he has said and been dissed as gossiping for)

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So, if David Cloud is gossiping because of mentioning names, what's going on this thread? Just sayin...

(please know that I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed; but what's been said about David Cloud in this thread is of the same nature of the things he has said and been dissed as gossiping for)


I guess because this thread isn't being sent out to thousands of pastors' inboxes with names mentioned of pastors that they are supposed to "beware" of....

But...reprimand duly accepted.
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Oh, believe me, I truly understand - and I wasn't meaning to reprimand, just to point out the irony of things. I haven't read the article, so I can't comment on it, although I do know who your hubby's former pastor is...and enjoy his preaching very much.


I guess because this thread isn't being sent out to thousands of pastors' inboxes with names mentioned of pastors that they are supposed to "beware" of....

But...reprimand duly accepted.
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Let's take this to the higher question which I posed earlier.

Is this "Ministry of Warning" Biblical?

Give a Biblical basis for this ministry if you think that men, other than your personal pastor, should be involved in this type of activity.

I personally do not believe it is Biblical, but before I post the Scripture that supports this I would like to see what others have to say.

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Let's take this to the higher question which I posed earlier.

Is this "Ministry of Warning" Biblical?

Give a Biblical basis for this ministry if you think that men, other than your personal pastor, should be involved in this type of activity.

I personally do not believe it is Biblical, but before I post the Scripture that supports this I would like to see what others have to say.


Anxious to see your Scripture. My gut says that your own pastor should be involved (Paul did a lot of warning, but he himself planted or helped plant most of the churches he wrote to, therefore he counted as a pastor).

I can't see how emailing thousands of pastors and "warning" about other pastors that you personally disagree with can be quite what God had in mind.
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I agree that the pastor should be responsible for "warning the flock", but unfortunately, many pastors have failed...and continue to fail...on purpose, because they don't want to offend anyone, and they don't want to alienate themselves.

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with everything David Cloud says, but I don't think it's necessarily un-biblical for him to do what he's doing...

This comes to mind...


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The command is to "brethren"...not just to pastors.

Also, in 1 and 2 Timothy, Paul named the names of false teachers and others who forsook Paul (thereby forsaking correct doctrine) several times (1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2:17, 3:8, 4:10, and 4:14).

Paul was the church planter, but he wasn't the Pastor of the church when he gave these "warnings"...Timothy was the pastor.

Pastorj and Kitagirl, please know that I'm not trying to argue about this...just stating things as I see them.

Like I said...I don't even agree with myself a lot of the time! :icon_confused:

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I agree that the pastor should be responsible for "warning the flock", but unfortunately, many pastors have failed...and continue to fail...on purpose, because they don't want to offend anyone, and they don't want to alienate themselves.

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with everything David Cloud says, but I don't think it's necessarily un-biblical for him to do what he's doing...

This comes to mind...


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The command is to "brethren"...not just to pastors.

Also, in 1 and 2 Timothy, Paul named the names of false teachers and others who forsook Paul (thereby forsaking correct doctrine) several times (1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2:17, 3:8, 4:10, and 4:14).

Paul was the church planter, but he wasn't the Pastor of the church when he gave these "warnings"...Timothy was the pastor.

Pastorj and Kitagirl, please know that I'm not trying to argue about this...just stating things as I see them.

Like I said...I don't even agree with myself a lot of the time! :icon_confused:


Its okay! I totally understand where you're coming from.

I guess my point is that in my humble opinion, in this case, he was not warning the flock against something that needed warned against. You know? I think sometimes that extra-strict line should be drawn by your local pastor.

I don't feel like its fair to the pastor I'm referring to for somebody to send his name to zillions of inboxes saying he's compromising just because he spoke at a Sword Conference. I feel that is extreme, and I feel it is not the type of "warning" we need.

Now, say a popular Bible college is compromising on the Word of God or having rock concerts....its true, pastors will need to know that so they can make educated decisions on where to send their students. But to call out pastors of local churches based on where they preach out? Ehh. There's no reason I need to pass judgement on other people's pastors for something like that.
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Its okay! I totally understand where you're coming from.

I guess my point is that in my humble opinion, in this case, he was not warning the flock against something that needed warned against. You know? I think sometimes that extra-strict line should be drawn by your local pastor.

I don't feel like its fair to the pastor I'm referring to for somebody to send his name to zillions of inboxes saying he's compromising just because he spoke at a Sword Conference. I feel that is extreme, and I feel it is not the type of "warning" we need.

Now, say a popular Bible college is compromising on the Word of God or having rock concerts....its true, pastors will need to know that so they can make educated decisions on where to send their students. But to call out pastors of local churches based on where they preach out? Ehh. There's no reason I need to pass judgement on other people's pastors for something like that.


I see your side too.

We need more pastors with a back-bone...who aren't afraid to "call 'em out"!

But I do appreciate a lot of what David Cloud has to say...trust me...in my area, I would never have known about hardly any of the compromise, bad doctrine, etc...that goes on in the church today. People in my area just don't care...and neither do the pastors.
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I see your side too.

We need more pastors with a back-bone...who aren't afraid to "call 'em out"!

But I do appreciate a lot of what David Cloud has to say...trust me...in my area, I would never have known about hardly any of the compromise, bad doctrine, etc...that goes on in the church today. People in my area just don't care...and neither do the pastors.


Me too!

And I feel there's many out there feels the same.

I can see Suzy's side to, for me I know none of those he warns about, so I'm not personally connected. That is I may have heard of them, read a book of theirs, or sermons in the Sword of the Lord, but that's it.
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Anxious to see your Scripture.




PRIVATE REPROOF VS. PUBLIC

JUNE 5, 2012


(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)





The following is excerpted from the new book The Two Jacks: Hyles and Schaap, which is available in print for purchase or as a free eBook from the Way of Life web site -- www.wayoflife.org.

___________________



The very fact that there are still many preachers today who believe a public warning about influential independent Baptist leaders is wrong is evidence that the spirit and error of Jack Hylesism is alive and well.

It is time for this heresy to be buried.

They say, “Who do you think you are to speak against such men?”

I can’t answer for others, but my personal answer to that is, “I don’t think I’m anybody at all. I’m just a frail and simple man God saved and called to preach, but I have His authority to speak and so does every other God-called preacher.”

God solemnly charges the preacher to identify false teachers, to exhort, reprove, and rebuke with all authority, to speak as the oracles of God, to earnestly contend for the faith, and even to warn about born-again compromisers (Romans 16:17; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 2:15; 1 Peter 4:11; Jude 3; 2 Thess. 3:6; 2 Tim. 4:10). Nowhere in Scripture are these commandments restricted in their scope. Nowhere does God say that a Bible preacher can reprove and rebuke only the members of his own church or that he can reprove and rebuke anyone who errs except an influential Christian leader.

To reprove public sin and error publicly by the Word of God under the guidance of the Spirit of God and in His wisdom is not slander and is not gossip and is not “throwing rocks” and is not “shooting the wounded” and is not hateful and is not dishonoring to Christ.

Private offenses and private sins need to be dealt with privately, but public errors need to be dealt with publicly. When a man builds an ecclesiastical empire, of sorts, and influences thousands of people beyond the borders of his congregation, his errors are no longer private matters and they are no longer matters pertaining only to his church.

When a man admits and repents of a sin or error, that is one thing and is dealt with in a certain way. But when an influential man covers up sins and errors and lies about them and even goes on the attack against those who try to expose them, that is another matter altogether and is to be dealt with in entirely a different way.

We must be very careful about what we say about men of God. We must be careful not to spread unsubstantiated rumors. We must be careful not to give heed to vindictive, disgruntled, backslidden people who are trying to injure the work of God. We must be very wise in what we say and in how we say it. We must make sure that we are speaking the truth, and we must test our hearts before God to make sure we are speaking the truth in the right spirit and for the right reason.

We don’t publicly reprove every pastor who errs or call out every church that compromises. Contrary to the silly and slanderous accusation that some have made against us, we don’t consider ourselves the “policeman of the IFB movement.”

The reality is that some men’s influence is much greater than others. Some men’s ministries effect only their own congregation, whereas some men’s affect tens of thousands.

When the sin of hypocrisy and the compromise of the principles of equality under the gospel was spreading in the early churches, the apostle Paul singled out Peter to rebuke before them all, for the simple reason that he was the most influential personality in that mess.

“But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I SAID UNTO PETER BEFORE THEM ALL, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:11-16).

We must be wise in speaking, but speak we must when the situation merits it. Let us fear God more than man.

“The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe” (Proverbs 29:25).

“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” (1 John 5:21).

One can hide in the crowd in this life and take his “stand” with the weak-kneed majority, but no one can hide at the judgment seat of Christ.

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Suzy, this isn't the first time someone well-known has publicly criticized the pastor you're referencing due to his speaking at SOTL conferences and the like. I remember more than once when he's preached at our church that he's mentioned being criticized for it. He's always laughed and made a statement to the effect that he will preach wherever God leads him to. And he does!

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I can't see how emailing thousands of pastors and "warning" about other pastors that you personally disagree with can be quite what God had in mind.


Unless I am mistaken you have to sign up to get those e-mails. Since that is the case the only people that get the "warnings" are those who have at least some interest in what cloud has to say at least some of the time. It is just a person giving his opinion and you may or may not agree with him on any particular issue. How many people do or do not value his opinion or listen to him has nothing to do with anything strictly speaking. I get the impression your biggest problem with it is that cloud has a fairly wide audience and therefore you seem to think he should be more careful about expressing his opinions. To me though these kind of things are just his opinions which people can take or leave as they see fit.
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Unless I am mistaken you have to sign up to get those e-mails. Since that is the case the only people that get the "warnings" are those who have at least some interest in what cloud has to say at least some of the time. It is just a person giving his opinion and you may or may not agree with him on any particular issue. How many people do or do not value his opinion or listen to him has nothing to do with anything strictly speaking. I get the impression your biggest problem with it is that cloud has a fairly wide audience and therefore you seem to think he should be more careful about expressing his opinions. To me though these kind of things are just his opinions which people can take or leave as they see fit.


I think, actually, my main thing is that there are a LOT of people who will follow exactly what Cloud says without actually knowing the people whereof he is speaking. So, say, Pastor Joe Smith (or whatever) out in Tennessee (Names out of a hat) may think about having Pastor X in his pulpit. But then Pastor Smith reads an article by Cloud that Pastor X spoke at a Sword conference and is a compromiser. Now Pastor Smith may decide NOT to have Pastor X in his pulpit simply because David Cloud said it was bad....NOT because he truly disagreed with Pastor X or felt he was unworthy to be in his pulpit.

Basically, I'm saying I personally know "Pastor X" and that he is above reproach in all things and hope people do not look badly on him because of this. However, I'm sure his good reputation precedes him and that this will not harm him in the long run. *Shrug*
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I was hesitant to bring this up, but I've decided to...for what it's worth. :nuts:

I didn't go back and read all of the entries in this thread, but I remember someone saying that David Cloud responded to their email, and he was very short with them (or something to that effect).

I corresponded with Mr. Cloud once; I think we swapped about 3 emails apiece.

In his first correspondence, he was very short and brisk; in that, he said that he would make an exception in my case, though he normally wouldn't since he didn't know me personally and he was a busy man.

At the time, I thought that was kind of rude, but I appreciated his willingness to make an exception.

I learned that he is an incredibly busy man...he's a missionary to Nepal (where he has started 3 churches...I think), he operates his website, his emails, writes books, does research for his books, preaches at various churches when he's in the States, and who knows what else.

The following emails that he sent me were also brisk and to the point...just saying what needed to be said.

So, I wouldn't take it personally if the email you received was short and brisk too. Granted, I think he could have been a little more gracious when we corresponded, but perhaps that's just his personality.

I know it appears that I'm defending David Cloud, and perhaps I am to an extent...but David Cloud isn't my golden calf. :coverlaugh:

Seth is correct, to receive his emails, you have to sign up for them.

By the way, before I cancelled my Facebook account, I was "friends" with Shelton Smith and was subscribed to the Sword of the Lord's Facebook page. I'm kind of like Bro. Jerry...I enjoy both the Sword and David Cloud.

If I have to join a camp, I'll forever be IFB, but I'll plant my standard with Jesus! David Cloud is fallible...Shelton Smith is fallible...I'm fallible...every man is fallible, but Jesus is the only one worthy to follow!

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No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.


Oh...I'm sorry if I misconstrued what was said earlier.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.

I had a similar exchange of emails with Cloud a few years ago. The basic message he kept repeating was that he was right, he wouldn't consider another point, I should read his writings, no he wouldn't respond to the Bible verses which seemed to clearly disagree with his position on a particular point. The emails he sent seemed to be arrogant and condescending and they led nowhere.
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Well, I know Bro. Cloud personally. And I know the pastor Kita is referencing. Both of these men have one goal in their lives: to love and serve the Lord with all their heart, soul, and might.

Both of these men preach God's Word without apology. And, in fact, have preached at the same conferences at our church (the same years, I mean). They preach in different manners, but they are both very interesting to hear, and God uses them mightily.

Bro. Cloud does not mince words. Pastor X doesn't either, but his approach is a bit different. And someone who doesn't know either of them could accuse both of them of being arrogant. But neither of them are. They are both uber busy men.

Again, I haven't read the article. I'm not really interested in reading it, especially after reading this thread. :icon_smile: And even though I know Pastor X preaches where he believes God would have him preach, I don't have a problem with Bro. Cloud calling him out for it. Why? Well, we do have the God-given right of free speech...and if we are to muzzle Bro. Cloud (or others like him) because we don't like that he chose someone we like to focus on and rebuke, as it were, then we will in turn be muzzled eventually.

Do I think it's gossip? No. I think it's a man who is sharing his heart - and I would be quite surprised if he hadn't already shared it with Pastor X. Do I think this thread is gossip? No (my earlier post was simply to point out the irony...). I think as Christians we should discuss this type of thing. We need to understand what is happening in Christianity today - from several perspectives.

Pastor X will not worry about criticism and neither will Bro. Cloud. They will both continue to serve the Lord.

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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