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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Let's not confuse the how with the what. Some may disagree with how they think he comes across - but make sure you don't throw out his ministry if what he says lines up with Scripture. If it does, we need to heed it regardless of whether we like his manner of teaching or exposing truth. We are responsible before the Lord to obey the truth when we hear/read it, whether we like a preacher or his style or not. I'm sure king David thought Nathan the prophet was irritable or abrasive when he exposed David's sin.

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I haven't read this whole thread yet, so you may have already answered these questions/my concerns. You say your husband received this article yesterday? Could you please give the title and/or a link to the article that we may all see it for ourselves? It seems your statements are gosip themselves, especially with no direct information to back them up. Yes it is very easy/possible to be hyper-critical, but I'd like to see his article personally and not just your opinion, please.

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My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

In reading this, I say a whole-hearted AMEN to it!
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I received that article in my email yesterday, but it has not been posted to the Way of Life website yet. The name of the article is:
"WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING WITHIN A GENERATION", June 18, 2012. I would assume that it will be posted to the website within the next few days.

Thanks for the info, I'll check their RSS feed!
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Here's a copy/paste of the article referenced.




WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING


WITHIN A GENERATION



JUNE 18, 2012


(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)





The National Sword of the Lord conference is scheduled for July 23-27 at Gospel Light Baptist Church, Walkertown, North Carolina. The speakers are Marc Dalton, Joe Arthur, Frank Gagliano, Jeff Fugate, John Hamblin, Tim Rabon, Lou Rossi, Kevin Folger, Mark Campbell, Raymond Barber, Norris Belcher, Mike Norris, Bobby Roberson, Paul Chappell, R.B.Ouellette, and Mike Allison. The Sword director is Shelton Smith.

In the book Why Most Independent Baptist Churches Will Be Emerging, we give the following eight reasons why we are convinced that most IFBaptist churches will be well down the contemporary path within a generation:

The maligning of warning and reproof
Unquestioning loyalty to man
Following the crowd
Ignorance about important Issues
Soft separatism
Lack of serious discipleship
Carelessness about music
Quick Prayerism

These points apply to the churches that are most deeply influenced by and that most deeply resonate with the Sword of the Lord.

The bottom line is that these churches, for the most part, are simply not prepared to face the level of spiritual warfare that is raging against every Bible-believing church today.

The Sword has never renounced the cult of Jack Hyles. It has never warned of Lee Roberson’s soft and ineffectual separatism which resulted in the dramatic downfall of Highland Park Baptist Church. It has never lifted a voice against Paul Chappell’s dangerous, unscriptural adaptation of contemporary worship music. In fact, in the most idolatrous manner, the Sword does not allow any warnings to be issued in regard to its heroes. Any such warnings are mischaracterized and the warners maligned. There is not a more effective “good old boys” network anywhere. As for the heresy of Quick Prayerism, the Sword has been at the forefront of promoting the men who created it and exalting those who practice it.

WHY MOST INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES WILL BE EMERGING is available as a free 65-page eBook from the Way of Life web site -- http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/

THE TWO JACKS: JACK HYLES AND JACK SCHAAP is also available as a free eBook. Few men have had a greater influence on the Sword than Jack Hyles.
H



Thank you for posting the article. I found it excellent and right on target!
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I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:

Exactly and LOL! For those who don't know, I was in Easy Believism/Quick Prayerism for around six years, before, during and after my Bible college years. The LORD got me out of it, by getting me around preaching from such men as Larry Raynes, Dale Massengale and too many others to mention here. Even though He was getting me out of it, it took a little while for it to get all out of my system, if you know what I mean. I praise and thank the LORD for men who take a biblical stand against false doctrine, as Brother Cloud has done/is doing! No, he isn't perfect, but before we start thinking higher of ourselves than we ought, we aren't either. We're fallible but God's word, the KJB isn't! BTW, for preaching from the men I mentioned and those too many others to mention here, please go to the link in my signiture! Thank you.
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It's a fine line between warning about things and "cutting" those involved with the blade.

There is also that line we must all determine as to when an otherwise sound pastor/ministry has crossed over and should be viewed with caution or avoided.

The Sword of the Lord is a good example of this. They have a very loyal following, many of which will tend to put loyalty to their "camp" above cautions voiced by others.

Cloud is probably just pointing out some of what many of us have seen, and that is IFB no longer means what it once did and will only become more that way. At some point in the future, it's probable many who are IFB today will have to come up with another identifying name because there will be so many wayward or outright wrong IFB churches/ministries/pastors out there.

So, where do we draw the line? If an IFB church uses select contemporary music set to a piano is that something to separate over, something to denounce their entire ministry over? What about if they sometimes quote from those who were biblically unsound in some areas? Then that would lead to just how unsound could they have been and still be worth quoting. What about Spurgeon, Wesley, Luther, Graham, Hyles, Rogers, Smith?

Those were just a couple examples, we could add others.

The point is, are we able to come up with a clear line or will we find that in some matters it's more of a boundary area with a clear line not being seen until one gets to the other side of that boundary area?

Good points John. Unfortunately, the SOTL bunch is more loyal to the SOTL than they are to Christ.
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I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?

Serious question here: Who? Never heard of them before, I don't think.
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I'm not bashing, but I guess that I'm a little surprised that the number of "right" churches must be less than I thought. Much of what Cloud says is accurate. If it wasn't for some of his warnings I would definitely be less "in-the-know." When I moved from MO to OH I figured it would be difficult to find a good church (and one that doesn't have a hint of falling away), and I was right. I miss my old church back in MO in many ways.

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I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:


I subscribe to Bro. Clouds newsletters, & I subscribe to Sword of the Lord. I'm cautious with Bro. Cloud, & I've very cautious with the whose who among the Sword of the Lord's bunch. And some of those in the Sword of the Lord I could not recommend to anyone. And neither do I speak out against them, I know not enough about them.

And I enjoy reading both of them.
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My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

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My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

You seem to be asking if there is a clear line on these matters and that seems to be part of the problem, that there are no clear lines with regards to some of these things.

Should a sound pastor who has a sound church be publically condemned because he preaches at another church, or convention, or gathering that may not be acceptable to all others?

Our associate pastor faced this when he was asked to preach in a Methodist church in a town with only a hundred or so people living there. Eventually the question came down to a matter, for him, of whether or not he was free to preach without restrictions. Once informed there would be no restrictions on his preaching, our associate pastor decided (after much prayer, consultation with our pastor and church board) that for some at that church this might be their only opportuntiy to actually hear a clear presentation of the Gospel so he accepted to preach that one Sunday. He was able to present a biblically sound sermon and clearly present the only way of salvation.

Should our associate pastor be condemned for preaching in a Methodist church one Sunday or should we praise God for the opportunity he had to share the Gospel with many who may have never heard the biblical Gospel before? In this particular case I believe our associate pastor did the right thing.

That said, I don't believe every invitation to preach in any church should be accepted. This is one of those areas where I believe it's more of a border area rather than a simple line. Some churches require advance approval of a sermon before it's preached in their church. Some churches place restrictions or requirements upon a pastor. Some churches are in clear violation in any number of areas and preaching in them would attach ones name to some of these matters. Etc. I believe in some cases a sound preacher can preach in other venues and should not be condemned for such. There are also cases where a sound preacher should not be preaching, and most sound preachers can recognize this.

So, if someone with some association with the Sword is involved in something some have problems with, does that mean everyone else associated with the Sword in any way should be considered tainted, in need of public rebuke, or such?

If we follow the rigid line some draw, that would mean none of us would ever be able to venture outside our own churches without risk of being condemned by even a hint of association.

We have to guard against many things, but in doing so we also have to guard against friendly fire. Sometimes it seems we are too willing to accept friendly fire and the collateral damage it causes rather than trying to prevent such from occuring.
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He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.


I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.
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I am surprised that so many here agree with Mr. Cloud, and take his words as gospel! Isn't it that same thing that he accuses the other churches of? Ironic, osn't it.

I have read many of his posts and given scriptural answers to his false teachings. His terms "easy believism" and easy prayism" leave the Lord out of the work. Only God knows a man's heart, not Mr. Cloud. Where does the Bible say we have to have a "hard prayer"? Or a long, bible study type prayer to lead someone to the Lord?

He also has a strange idea of repentance, as we have already hashed out on previous posts. Go ahead and exalt him as the high and mighty poo-pah and form your opinions by his words instead of God's Word, and let's see how it turn out.

I believe that when he runs out of edifying and useful thoughts, he finds someone to pick on, which makes him look better too. By the way, saying "you have not read my books" is a great plug for the selling of his books. Not a bad ploy for making a buck.

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I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.

If Cloud were just another person I would agree, no big deal, but Cloud says he's been called to have a "warning ministry" and he has a significant outreach. That makes it a "big deal" in the sense it's more than just someone with an opinion, it's another ministry claiming it's their duty to call out these people.

While I sometimes agree with Cloud, I've noticed he becomes very defensive when someone confronts him on some aspects of his ministry. Oftentimes he even becomes defensive when asked rather simple questions.

If someone is outright, clearly biblically wrong, then point that out, put forth the Scripture which clearly addresses this, and leave it at that.

The problem is, Cloud often engages in much more and he often draws a very wide circle of "association" which he uses to name more names or strike at.
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Oh, I agree, just seems like what was said above, that more and more churches will continue to fall away and the number of "right" churches will diminish.

My old church back in SW MO quit "associating" with BBFI years ago because of their falling away. Even the "school" my former pastor went to apparently has been slipping away as well. He went there in the mid-80's, he and others that I've met that went to this particular school said that looking back they could see the "beginnings" of the falling away from Biblical standards and toward worldliness. My former pastor would not attend that school in its current state.

Although I like the preaching of one particular preacher up here in a big city IFB church, he has attended the Lancaster Leadership conference more than once to preach there, and also has some of Mr. Chappell's books on display in his church.


I may have to write and ask Bro. Cloud what position he takes on the FBF and FBFI.

Edited to add...

The reason for my interest is I know more preachers who were in the FBF and FBFI from the 80s and 90s. Edited by 1Tim115
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To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

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To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.


Thank you PastorJ. My point exactly.

I've really liked David Cloud in the past but I think he has overstepped his bounds and he's begun to criticize things that are none of his business, and to criticize men that he has no business criticizing.

Frankly, who preaches at the Sword Conference has NOTHING. TO. DO. With our local church. Its nothing but preacher-gossip!

And for Cloud to say "Well I know your pastor is a good man who has a good church BUT I was still right in calling him out." Really???? Did GOD tell you that or something? Because God says to "touch not God's anointed" and "Do my prophet no harm". I realize that's OT but still, God will protect a man of God who is right with Him. Call out a heretic? Yeah. Call out someone who preached in a church you wouldn't preach in? (And we're not talking Mormon or cult, we're talking Independent Baptist!!!!!) No way. I don't see God as pleased with this in the least.

Not happy with Cloud right now. Its none of Cloud's business where an INDEPENDENT pastor preaches and its none of anybody else's business, either, saving for that man's local church, and God.
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I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.


I want to say if I was one of those...then....I seriously apologize. There was one time I felt David Cloud was awesome. Since then I'm really unhappy with how far he takes this "warning" thing. Its like NOTHING in IFB pleases him anymore. Its getting a little ridiculous.
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      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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