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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????

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I hope he is not getting that way - but it is easy to get hypercritical. It does seem the road that lies at the end of separation from everybody and everything.

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My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????


Can you provide an article name and web location?
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I read the article, but I know not the men he spoke of.

But I do know how it is in business, & The Sword of the Lord is a business, & its in business to make a profit. And its can be easy to put the profit above all else. Many of the prominent preachers at Sword conferences are those that advertise in the Sword of the Lord, plus calls on the editor to preach at their churches. It may be easy for them to give those men a free pass on some issues, perhaps even critical issues. Not saying they are, as I stated above, I don't know nothing about these men.

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My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.


Churches are falling at a fast rate of speed. When it gets a younger generation pastor, generals that brings in liberalism.

And I have noticed, many churches do not care where their pastor got their degree, just as long as they have one. And I know of 2 churches that have had a preacher preach in view of call on Sunday morning, them call him to be their pastor that very Sunday evening. Not knowing nothing about theses 4 pastors, never asking them one single question about their beliefs.
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Can you provide an article name and web location?

I received that article in my email yesterday, but it has not been posted to the Way of Life website yet. The name of the article is:
"WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING WITHIN A GENERATION", June 18, 2012. I would assume that it will be posted to the website within the next few days.
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My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????


My initial reaction was the same. He writes many good things, but this article set me back a little. There were 3 preachers who preached at the Lancaster Conference in 2011 that I've heard on many occasions, 2 of which are from good solid IFB churches back in OK (and one is president of a good IFB Bible college), the other in MI. These 3 men toe the line and preach hard, but sound doctrine (from what I can tell).

Since moving to NE Ohio a few months ago, I've met another preacher that he named in this article (who preached at the 2011 and 2012 conference), and I listen to his preaching often as I don't go to his church (wife and I go to one very close to home), but his preaching is solid as well.

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that at least in this small area here, that "The Sword" and it's preachers, etc. is popular. I read their biweekly paper and have recently started to receive monthly messages (4 different preachers each month), and these span the ages (John Rice, Curtis Hutson, for example....also some current preachers).

I agree it is one thing to "warn the flock," but it almost seems to me (IMHO) that Mr. Cloud seems to be against almost every preacher, even those that have solid Bible based churches who may "preach" at a church that may not be quite as solid (if that makes sense).

I ask this next question in all humility.....(based on Mr. Cloud's continued "writings"), would there be ANY solid church that anyone of us could attend? I think we can all agree that there is no "perfect" church this side of heaven, but I have to wonder, if I/we used Mr. Cloud's writings as a measuring stick, would we find any church that would be the "right" one?
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My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.


I replied to Kita's opening comment, then read your post. Your last statement may be an answer to my question.
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Here's a copy/paste of the article referenced.


WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING

WITHIN A GENERATION


JUNE 18, 2012

(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)




The National Sword of the Lord conference is scheduled for July 23-27 at Gospel Light Baptist Church, Walkertown, North Carolina. The speakers are Marc Dalton, Joe Arthur, Frank Gagliano, Jeff Fugate, John Hamblin, Tim Rabon, Lou Rossi, Kevin Folger, Mark Campbell, Raymond Barber, Norris Belcher, Mike Norris, Bobby Roberson, Paul Chappell, R.B.Ouellette, and Mike Allison. The Sword director is Shelton Smith.

In the book Why Most Independent Baptist Churches Will Be Emerging, we give the following eight reasons why we are convinced that most IFBaptist churches will be well down the contemporary path within a generation:

The maligning of warning and reproof
Unquestioning loyalty to man
Following the crowd
Ignorance about important Issues
Soft separatism
Lack of serious discipleship
Carelessness about music
Quick Prayerism

These points apply to the churches that are most deeply influenced by and that most deeply resonate with the Sword of the Lord.

The bottom line is that these churches, for the most part, are simply not prepared to face the level of spiritual warfare that is raging against every Bible-believing church today.

The Sword has never renounced the cult of Jack Hyles. It has never warned of Lee Roberson’s soft and ineffectual separatism which resulted in the dramatic downfall of Highland Park Baptist Church. It has never lifted a voice against Paul Chappell’s dangerous, unscriptural adaptation of contemporary worship music. In fact, in the most idolatrous manner, the Sword does not allow any warnings to be issued in regard to its heroes. Any such warnings are mischaracterized and the warners maligned. There is not a more effective “good old boys” network anywhere. As for the heresy of Quick Prayerism, the Sword has been at the forefront of promoting the men who created it and exalting those who practice it.

WHY MOST INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES WILL BE EMERGING is available as a free 65-page eBook from the Way of Life web site -- http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/

THE TWO JACKS: JACK HYLES AND JACK SCHAAP is also available as a free eBook. Few men have had a greater influence on the Sword than Jack Hyles.
H

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I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:

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It's a fine line between warning about things and "cutting" those involved with the blade.

There is also that line we must all determine as to when an otherwise sound pastor/ministry has crossed over and should be viewed with caution or avoided.

The Sword of the Lord is a good example of this. They have a very loyal following, many of which will tend to put loyalty to their "camp" above cautions voiced by others.

Cloud is probably just pointing out some of what many of us have seen, and that is IFB no longer means what it once did and will only become more that way. At some point in the future, it's probable many who are IFB today will have to come up with another identifying name because there will be so many wayward or outright wrong IFB churches/ministries/pastors out there.

So, where do we draw the line? If an IFB church uses select contemporary music set to a piano is that something to separate over, something to denounce their entire ministry over? What about if they sometimes quote from those who were biblically unsound in some areas? Then that would lead to just how unsound could they have been and still be worth quoting. What about Spurgeon, Wesley, Luther, Graham, Hyles, Rogers, Smith?

Those were just a couple examples, we could add others.

The point is, are we able to come up with a clear line or will we find that in some matters it's more of a boundary area with a clear line not being seen until one gets to the other side of that boundary area?

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I guess the only things we can do is to pray for true Biblical discernment.


I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?
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I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?


Oh, I agree, just seems like what was said above, that more and more churches will continue to fall away and the number of "right" churches will diminish.

My old church back in SW MO quit "associating" with BBFI years ago because of their falling away. Even the "school" my former pastor went to apparently has been slipping away as well. He went there in the mid-80's, he and others that I've met that went to this particular school said that looking back they could see the "beginnings" of the falling away from Biblical standards and toward worldliness. My former pastor would not attend that school in its current state.

Although I like the preaching of one particular preacher up here in a big city IFB church, he has attended the Lancaster Leadership conference more than once to preach there, and also has some of Mr. Chappell's books on display in his church.
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I ask this next question in all humility.....(based on Mr. Cloud's continued "writings"), would there be ANY solid church that anyone of us could attend? I think we can all agree that there is no "perfect" church this side of heaven, but I have to wonder, if I/we used Mr. Cloud's writings as a measuring stick, would we find any church that would be the "right" one?


I think we would. They would be churches with pastors who don't hold to any 'man-cult' (if you will), shun fellowships with - not weaker - but compromising - churches, and are very careful to consider the implications and associations of the choices they make. Thankfully, though, we are not required to use Br. Cloud or anyone else's writings as a measuring stick for our church. ;) I don't think that he is 'calling out' all the speakers on the list - just listing those who are speaking so he can 'call out' the Sword on a few of them.

I agree with what Br. Cloud says, but it seems to me that the manner in which he says it is getting rather... abrasive? Like maybe he feels the need to defend himself a bit too much? I totally understand the desire to defend himself - he must get some awfully disagreeing messages aimed at himself - but I feel like his manner of response is beginning to 'turn people off' and will affect their attention to his legitimate warnings. :twocents:
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I have written several times on this forum about some of Mr. Clouds "warning", and wonder about the terms "Warning ministry". We all know that there is a lot of disagreement among IFB's on many doctrines, and the word "heretic" is used quite loosely. Which so called warning warrior do we align with? The one that comes closest to what we wish to believe. I, for one, do not respect Mr. Cloud or his vendetta against so many men who are trying to make a difference through soul winning and preaching. Once we let criticism in, it can eat us up! Sure there are things we need to warn the church about, but it is too easy to go too far with it.

Speaking of the Sword of the Lord, (June 8th issue) there is a great article on standards in the latest issue.by Bro. Ouellette. He even mentions Deut. 22: 8-10 and gives the application. It is a good article, although he carefully avoided 22:5, but I understand why, seeing that I know him well. Anyway, it is worth checking out.

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I have written several times on this forum about some of Mr. Clouds "warning", and wonder about the terms "Warning ministry". We all know that there is a lot of disagreement among IFB's on many doctrines, and the word "heretic" is used quite loosely. Which so called warning warrior do we align with? The one that comes closest to what we wish to believe. I, for one, do not respect Mr. Cloud or his vendetta against so many men who are trying to make a difference through soul winning and preaching. Once we let criticism in, it can eat us up! Sure there are things we need to warn the church about, but it is too easy to go too far with it.

Speaking of the Sword of the Lord, (June 8th issue) there is a great article on standards in the latest issue.by Bro. Ouellette. He even mentions Deut. 22: 8-10 and gives the application. It is a good article, although he carefully avoided 22:5, but I understand why, seeing that I know him well. Anyway, it is worth checking out.


Haven't read it yet. I have heard/seen Bro. Ouellette on a few occasions.
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Does David Cloud even have a church? It's easy to be critical of churches when you don't pastor one yourself.


Yes. He pastors a church in Nepal. I believe his son (or son-in-law?) is there as well.
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 0 replies
    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 1 reply
    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
      · 0 replies
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