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Majesty Music And Getty


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A comment about music, singing & church services.

I suppose in a way you would say this is preference, if you do, that bothers me not.

Growing up at times someone, or perhaps a quartet made up of church members, & every now & again someone from another church would sing a special, perhaps even more than one, but it never took place of our preaching services.

I never saw a string instrument in church services, such as a violin, guitar, or such, & not even a drum. Those singing sang only with the use of a piano. And generally they practiced much before singing such songs.

My mother played the piano at our church, I recall many times, many different church members stopping by in the evening time to practice sing a song or songs to sing at some future time. Back in those days we also had youth fellowship meetings once a month. And it was for the youth of our churches. It helped train them for serving the Lord in church & in life when they grew up, & it also put them in contact with other youths of Christians parents that attend church that if not for this special services they may have never met. I mention the youth fellowship meting for also some of the young people would always lead the singing & sing some special songs during this service.

I suppose it was not until the late 70's, maybe early 80's, that I started to see people sing in church with canned music, & accomplied by music instruments other than a piano. Also to me, that was the point that some bad songs started to make their way into churches throughout this area. And at that time was when churches though this area had to start guarding against bad songs being brought into our churches. And started having to inquire before hand to make sure the songs were appropriate even before they were sung in church. Of course some churches did not guard against such songs & in those churhes today it seems any song that's labeled Christian is allowed & generally the songs will be sung with loud music with a big rock & roll beat.

I still think there is not a more beatiful sound that hearing songs sang in church than with the use of only a piano, weather its on person singing are many.

A few years ago there was a funeral service held at the large SBC in the small town down the road from my house. The Mennonites choir was invited by the deceased family to sing a few songs. They do not use musical instruments at all. A ew weeks later tis SBC invited this Mennonites choir to the church to sing several songs. And they enjoyed this singing so much that in a few short weeks they invited them back again. After which many of the members of this church compliment them that was the most beautiful singing they had ever head in this church.

The pastor of this SBC was complimenting this singing to one of the Mennonite men. He told this pastor, "I've heard your choir sing several times, I've heard the mens quartet from your church sing, & I believe they can sing quite well, but I am not sure, all the loud music that's used drowns out their voices. I really believe they would sing just as good as our choir if only you would cut out the loud music so that their voices could be heard.. Them again, perhaps they can't sing, & you use the loud music to keep people from knowing they're very poor singers." The pastor was stunned, he did not have the words to respond to this man that spoke truth to him.

But, in that SBC, the rock beat goes on, & for the most part in special songs that are sung, the sining voices are drowned out by the loud rock beat music that seems louder than ever. Most times you will not be able to understand the words being sung, unless you reading it off of something.

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

And there is no doubt, in many churches across this county there music in them that's leading its member right back into the world.

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I have been in a few churches over the years that used CCM music but they turn it into Choir and hymnal sounding and it sounded pleasent and it wasn't entertainment. I think it varies at each church what their motives are with using CCM music or alike. I do like traditional hymns and songs and ETC however at times I do like some modern songs to make a person think before a sermon is preached. I never felt it was for entertainment and each song that was sung CCM and southern gospel or traditional hymn brought me too the alter to pray to think , your singing to the Lord Jesus Christ and what difference does it make ifs old fashioned or modern Christian music? I agree that we should not entertain in churches but, at the other side of the spectrem some songs are oked because it sings about the Lord and the truth.
As for the Chris Tomlin Song Amazing Grace the chains are gone, he added that because the original writer(look it up to call me out) had wrote that in but he left that out for some reason. Its just talks about that the chains of sins is and are gone and Christ has forgave the person.

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Karrie, that is a helpful comment. It's too easy to be negative - we do not want to alienate our youngsters who may be hearing too much CCM. We include such songs, sung simply & straight.

It does seem that many of the old hymns that I have known & loved for 60 years are unfamiliar to many church-goers. I choose what I think will be well-known to find that even our Pastor doesn't known them. He is a Pakistani Christian, in England for around 15 years.

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I've read several articles about John Newton, never heard of chains being prat of his song or written down by him. I have read what has been called the original song written by him. Which I'm pasting below.


Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

And what is called the modern version.


Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call'd me here below,
Will be forever mine.


Some versions include an additional verse:

When we've been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we'd first begun.

I bought some tracts a few years back on Amazing Grace, believe it was about 500 hundred of them, it had nothing about chains. I have a feeling someone is trying to gain credibility making a false claim. Please notice, I did not say it was a false claim, I did say I feel its a false claim.

One thing about the old hymns we sing, they all tell a true Bible story, that is filled with Bible truths, they're actually a very short sermon. And they're sung in a manner that keeps the world out of the church. The rock beat modern songs cannot make that claim.

Sad thing is, many of the churches out there are filled with mostly lost people, they cannot discern between right & wrong in the sight of God, that is just something lost people cannot do, & never been able to do.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sadly, many are following their precarious ways, even many of our brothers & sisters in Christ.

I have a feeling the idea of adding chains to Amazing Grace came from & old country western song, 'Take These Chains From My Heart,' of course I could be wrong on that.

Yet, as I said before, I totally dislike anyone changing the old hymns, they're great just as they are. If they want to write a song, do so, & leave the songs of others alone. And do not try to make a name & a few bucks for your self off of someone else's old hymn.

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Many old hymns had many wore verses than we sing these days. Some of Wesley's had over 30 verses and we split some of them into two or more hymns.

We plough the fields and scatter, has a couple of verses we don't often sing today, one verse has a line about "the rushes by the river we gather every day," another says:
The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate,
He made them high and lowly,
He ordered their estate.

"The Sands of time are sinking" has from four to six verses in most hymn books, not always the same verses, but the original had about 19 verses.

Edited by Invicta
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I saw a video on hymns and they showed that there have been several different lyics added to and subtracted from Amazing Grace over they years. The song has also been played to many different music forms. This hymn wasn't greatly received when it first came out and it wasn't until the song came to America and caught on in a few churches that it really gained popularity.

Many of the old hymns had various lyrics, some verses have been dropped from some, some rewritten, etc.

In several cases, the music played with the hymns and the lyrics used back then were greatly different from the way we know the hymn today.

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One thing I noticed after I started to preach & go to different churches. Is that each church seems to sing different hymns, & some of the songs in our hymn books that I never heard before. Of course most of them will share a few of the most favorites which they will sing often.

A few years back I was looking though our song book, & on page 301 was one I have never heard. Sometime later when I was putting a sermon together I thought of this hymn, & during my sermon I read the words to it. the next Sunday evening we sang this song, everyone enjoyed it & it has become one of our favorites.

And this latter reminded me of going to a singing at a church that out in the boon docks, they are so far out in country in order to go hunting you have to drive back towards one of the small towns throughout the area. They're pure 100% country. I got tickled at them, as they would sing another song the speaker of the singing group would says, "This is our favorite hymn giving the name of it................" He finally caught on that he was saying everyone of them was his favorite, & said, "I have to confess, we have many favorite songs. I'm that way too, I can say many of the old hymns are my favorite.

Generally most churches in this area will use the Highway To Heaven & or American Baptist Hymnal.

One of my most favorites I hardly ever hear any more, 'Beautiful Life,' back in my growing up days my best friends father sang base, & I can close my eyes thinking of that song & I can still nearly hear him singing the beautiful bass portions. If you have never heard the song, the words to it are here, & you can listen to a piano playing it.

Edited to add this, I meant to say, The Sands of time are sinking, I have never heard of it.

Edited by Jerry80871852
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There is some music I've heard that we've debated before. Some call it CCM, I won't let it bother me.

My preference is traditional Christian hymns. But, I've heard some new songs that made me reflect solely on God and His glory, and His grace to me.

Example:
For Me to Live Is Christ by J. White; I will listen to the song and enjoy it.
There Is A Redeemer by Keith Green; but I enjoy it and will sing along if I have an opportunity.
(No, I'm not going legal and investigate these guys)

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John,
you have raised a good point about the consistency in our critique of music. I understand exactly what you are saying, that there seems to be a double standard in how we use an argument against a modern song that, if applied evenly, would disqualify what is now a standard hymn.
Here is my take on that issue:
It takes a long time to see the fruit born of a seed. We can very easily look back through the corridors of time and see what songs have been a tremedous blessing and help to God's people, despite the author's weaknesses/faults, etc.
For instance, we can easily point out that Fanny Crosby wrote secular tunes, and dismiss all of her hymnody.
However, here is where the fruit is borne out.
She wrote literally 1,000's of hymns, yet how many of them do we actually have in our hymnbooks today, and out of that small selection, how many do we actually sing on any kind of a regular basis?
Maybe 15? 20? I would say 20 would be the very, very most.
So the overall ratio of Fanny Crosby's songs that we actually sing vs. the overall number of songs she wrote is a very, very small percentage.

So let me make the appropriate application.
Bill and Gloria Gaither have written (x) number of songs (I have no idea how many they have written - I just know they have written a large number of songs.) Out of all the songs they have written, I can only think of a very small handful of songs that are anywhere near appropriate for church specials (at least IMO - and I know some probably would not sing ANYTHING by the Gaithers....more power to you! REMEMBER...this is just an illustration!)

My point is this....there could very well indeed be some modern songs written by CCM artists that actually have good words. The music could even be cleaned up to be suitable for a conservatively minded Baptist Church.
The problem is ASSOCIATION. By singing those songs in our churches, we are by default ENDORSING the current "ministry" of people that we would otherwise condemn on many fronts - doctrine, practice, separation, methods, etc., etc., etc. While many people might be blessed by the song because they have no idea who wrote it, or even who the authors are, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that there would not be a sizable percentage of people in the church who DO know the songs from the CCM artists. THose are the people that will see the inconsistency in our stated/preached position on music, and the use of the very same music that we condemn from the pulpits.

If in fact these modern songs are any good, they will stand the test of time, just like that very small percentage of Fanny Crosby's songs did and Bill Gaither's songs have.

Down here in the South, Southern Gospel music is such a problem that I avoid Gaither's songs because I don't want anyone to think that I condone his music or lifestyle or "ministry" or anything like that.

"Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil."

Anyway, maybe that helps someone out there understand why some of us have such a problem with the Hamiltons including modern CCM songs in their songbooks.
I mean, that video someone posted - the performers do everything that Garlock and Hamilton told us NOT to do....so why would they use their music??? (FWIW - I really could not tell the difference MUSICALLY from there performance and a typical rock band performance....same lighting, same makeup, same musical structure, same chord progression, same repetitive riffs, etc.....)

The bottom line is this.....we are in Laodicean times....God's people are more interested in pleasing their FLESH than pleasing God....and will use any excuse to do so!

PS - Ian, I disagree with you...the words and music of Onward Christian Soldiers is vastly superior to the posted video. At least the music makes you think of marching!

In Christ,

Edited by Steve Schwenke
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Edited to add this, I meant to say, The Sands of time are sinking, I have never heard of it.


Here are a few of the verses, the usual Tune is Rutherford

The sands of time are sinking, the dawn of Heaven breaks;
The summer morn I’ve sighed for—the fair, sweet morn awakes:
Dark, dark hath been the midnight, but dayspring is at hand,
And glory, glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

O Christ, He is the fountain, the deep, sweet well of love!
The streams on earth I’ve tasted more deep I’ll drink above:
There to an ocean fullness His mercy doth expand,
And glory, glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

The King there in His beauty, without a veil is seen:
It were a well spent journey, though seven deaths lay between:
The Lamb with His fair army, doth on Mount Zion stand,
And glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

I’ve wrestled on towards Heaven, against storm and wind and tide,
Now, like a weary traveler that leaneth on his guide,
Amid the shades of evening, while sinks life’s lingering sand,
I hail the glory dawning from Immanuel’s land.

With mercy and with judgment my web of time He wove,
And aye, the dews of sorrow were lustered with His love;
I’ll bless the hand that guided, I’ll bless the heart that planned
When throned where glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

O I am my Beloved’s and my Beloved’s mine!
He brings a poor vile sinner into His house of wine.
I stand upon His merit—I know no other stand,
Not even where glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

I shall sleep sound in Jesus, filled with His likeness rise,
To love and to adore Him, to see Him with these eyes:
’Tween me and resurrection but paradise doth stand;
Then—then for glory dwelling in Immanuel’s land.

The bride eyes not her garment, but her dear bridegroom’s face;
I will not gaze at glory but on my king of grace.
Not at the crown He giveth but on His piercèd hand;
The Lamb is all the glory of Immanuel’s land.

They’ve summoned me before them, but there I may not come,
My Lord says Come up hither, My Lord says Welcome home!
My king, at His white throne, my presence doth command
Where glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

I came across some copies of letters between Baptist churches and preachers from 1845 and 1847. They all refered to Hart's Hymns, Joseph Hart seemed to be the only hymnwriter they used. Joseph Hart was not a baptist as far as I can find.
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My point is this....there could very well indeed be some modern songs written by CCM artists that actually have good words. The music could even be cleaned up to be suitable for a conservatively minded Baptist Church.
The problem is ASSOCIATION. By singing those songs in our churches, we are by default ENDORSING the current "ministry" of people that we would otherwise condemn on many fronts - doctrine, practice, separation, methods, etc., etc., etc. While many people might be blessed by the song because they have no idea who wrote it, or even who the authors are, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that there would not be a sizable percentage of people in the church who DO know the songs from the CCM artists. THose are the people that will see the inconsistency in our stated/preached position on music, and the use of the very same music that we condemn from the pulpits.


That is basically what I meant when I said by singing their songs we are letting them into our churches by the back door.


PS - Ian, I disagree with you...the words and music of Onward Christian Soldiers is vastly superior to the posted video. At least the music makes you think of marching!


Most evangelical churches will change the words "with the cross of Jesus going on before." to "Looking unto Jesus, who is gone before." The origfinal words bring the picture of a RC or Anglican procession, with somepone holding up a cross in the front of the procession, in fact, I am sure that is what it means.
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Most evangelical churches will change the words "with the cross of Jesus going on before." to "Looking unto Jesus, who is gone before." The origfinal words bring the picture of a RC or Anglican procession, with somepone holding up a cross in the front of the procession, in fact, I am sure that is what it means.

Huh!
I have been singing that song since I was a kid....never in my life had I even imagined an RCC procession! The imagery of the Christian warfare is as plain as day.
I checked Osbeck's "101 Hymn stories, and here is what I gathered.
The author of the song was an Anglican. He wrote the song hastily one night as the children from his school were to walk to a neighboring village for a joint outing with that village's school. He wanted them to be able to sing as they walked (not marched!), so he came up with the words to this song the night before their outing. The original tune was a variation from Hayden. The current tune was composed about 6 years after he wrote the words to the song.
The song's author was completely surprised by the popularity of the song...

So it was obviously not written for any grand procession or anything like that. It is simply a song to remind us that we are Christian soldiers and we follow the command of our Saviour Jesus Christ, just as a soldier in those days was assigned to a company, and each company had its own banner to identify themselves from each other.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
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Many old hymns had many wore verses than we sing these days. Some of Wesley's had over 30 verses and we split some of them into two or more hymns.

All things bright and beautiful,
We plough the fields and scatter, has a couple of verses we don't often sing today, one verse has a line about "the rushes by the river we gather every day,"

another says:

The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate,
He made them high and lowly,
He ordered their estate.
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