Tithing

[John81]

Giving generously is ALWAYS ALWAYS blessed of God. And that's usually how my husband approaches it from the pulpit. If he does speak of money, its rarely, and its always prefaced by the fact that he's not preaching on it because HE wants to (he doesn't...and he has no clue who gives and who does not, and does not want to know) but that he's preaching on it for the sake of the PEOPLE who will be blessed of God if they give.

Its what shepherds do. For instance a shepherd will tell his flock to stay near to him...not because he's a control freak and wants to micromanage them, but because he knows there are dangers outside of his area and he wants the flock safe.

That sounds just fine as you describe it. I don't think a pastor should never mention money or giving. Just as it's not good for a pastor to overfocus upon money and giving, it's also not good to avoid the topic. Scripture speaks to issues of money and giving so that should come up in a pastors sermons from time to time; either as a portion of a sermon or the topic.

Also, all believers are at different stages in their growth, understanding and walk with Christ, so there will always be someone who needs to hear about these matters. One of the amazing blessings which comes through the Holy Ghost, is how a pastor can preach a sermon so the whole congregation gets that general message, but at the same time, the Holy Ghost makes sure folks in the congregation also get a specific message, which sometimes can seem very different from one to another. So even if some in the congregation take away the basics of the sermon on money and giving, there will be others who get a more specific message from that with regards to their situation at their point in their walk with Christ.

[Steve Schwenke]

This is a very touchy subject.
If the pastor teaches or preaches on the subject of giving, then somebody says, "See, these preachers just want more money."
If the pastor does NOT teach or preac on the subject of giving....and there is no way around this point...he is failing to teach "the whole counsel of God" as Paul instructed us to in Acts 20.

Personally, I avoided the subject for several years in the various churches I served in, trusting that God would supply our needs, and that the Lord would lay it upon the hearts of Gods people to give. For the most part they did, but I only wonder if some sound teaching and preaching from time to time would have encouraged them to do more, and instruct the young/weak/new Christian to even start giving.

When we came here, through the natural attrition that had occured in the membership before I even arrived, the church was not able to maintain its missions commitments. I spoke with one of our elders about the subject, and asked him about some ideas I had. I will never forget his response. He said, "Well brother, what we really need is some good teaching on the subject of giving to stir some folks up to give." I said, "You're right...maybe I should have Deacon _____ teach on that sometime soon." He replied, "No. It is your job. You are the pastor....you need to teach on it."

Wow! It was a very gentle rebuke, but I have to admit that he was right.
So I taught on it.....and the ones who were already giving were encouraged, and the ones who were not were challenged to trust the Lord, and give by faith. (Of course, that is not a blind, foolish "leap in the dark" stupidity, but faith that God will supply our needs, and will bless anything we give to Him with a sincere heart.)
I don't teach or preach on it all the time....but after this experience, I decided that it is necessary to teach on the proper aspects of NT Christian giving from time to time as the Lord directs.

Anyway, that is my journey on this subject...my position is well documented elsewhere.

In Christ,

[JerryNumbers]

Paul told Timothy the bishop is to be above reproach.

Well, when they out and out lie from the pulpit, they are not above reproach.

And are therefore unqualified to fill the position.

If he did that regularly, yes, she should be taken from the pulpit, but there's many that will not stand up to a pastor, & let them do as please.

But I will say, when he made that statement it may be that you did not come to his mind at that moment, so it was not really a lie. So perhaps he just made a misstatement, & did not lie.

You must be careful, & be sure to make a righteous judgment on this issue. The problem with us, we can not read the heart of man, as God can, so there's times you must give them benefit of doubt, not rushing to judgment.


Now I will mention this, this is something I would not talk to about with anyone that was not a member of the church I'm a member of. But you can ask people a questing about this by just giving a allegory & not saying it was your pastor, that it happened at your church.

I firmly believe on is not to speak about church troubles to anyone outside of their church, yet many do this. And even if you leave a church because of some matter, disagreement, you should not go around telling it to everyone. That puts black marks on Jesus, & His churches more that anything else.

I had a terrible thing happen between a pastor & me. Many church members came to me, many called me, saying come back, we will take care of this matter, & if the pastor will not apologize to you, he will be sent away, we've already got together & discussed this, we have the votes..

I said NO! That will not help nothing.

They all said, "Yes it will, lets don't let him get away with it."

I again said NO! If we all did that for many years to come they would talking about what happen at that church every time its name was mentioned, & it would do no one the least bit of good. But if I politely leave, it will be forgotten, & there will be no black marks. Yes, I know, I should not have to leave this church, I love everyone of you, but I rather be inconveniences, suffer, than to put a black mark on Jesus, & one of His churches.

Since that day many of them have came to me saying, "You were right, you did the right thing." If I had went along with it, I feel that now they would be saying that I should have just left & not caused those black marks against that church.

I promise you, doing the right thing is some times MUCH harder than doing wrong.

So be careful. And I really think that is what others here have on their mind, but I could be wrong, I am not good at 2nd guessing others.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

And there is not one single thing wrong with teaching New Testament giving.

The problem arises when man allows his own opinions to govern the New Testament passages on giving instead of allowing the New Testament passages on giving to govern his opinion.

I commend you for teaching New Testament giving... if you did not bring Old Testament Law into that giving.

Teach the congregation to give gracefully what they purpose in their hearts to give. Trust God to supply all your need. If He wants the Church to stay open, He will speak to the hearts that are willing to listen and prompt them to give cheerfully and willingly enough to maintain the operations of the Sanctuary.

We do not have to accuse people of 'robbing God' to get the necessary funding for the maintenance and operation of the Church. We only need to teach and preach His will for the Church.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If he did that regularly, yes, she should be taken from the pulpit, but there's many that will not stand up to a pastor, & let them do as please.

But I will say, when he made that statement it may be that you did not come to his mind at that moment, so it was not really a lie. So perhaps he just made a misstatement, & did not lie.

You must be careful, & be sure to make a righteous judgment on this issue. The problem with us, we can not read the heart of man, as God can, so there's times you must give them benefit of doubt, not rushing to judgment.


Now I will mention this, this is something I would not talk to about with anyone that was not a member of the church I'm a member of. But you can ask people a questing about this by just giving a allegory & not saying it was your pastor, that it happened at your church.

I firmly believe on is not to speak about church troubles to anyone outside of their church, yet many do this. And even if you leave a church because of some matter, disagreement, you should not go around telling it to everyone. That puts black marks on Jesus, & His churches more that anything else.

I had a terrible thing happen between a pastor & me. Many church members came to me, many called me, saying come back, we will take care of this matter, & if the pastor will not apologize to you, he will be sent away, we've already got together & discussed this, we have the votes..

I said NO! That will not help nothing.

They all said, "Yes it will, lets don't let him get away with it."

I again said NO! If we all did that for many years to come they would talking about what happen at that church every time its name was mentioned, & it would do no one the least bit of good. But if I politely leave, it will be forgotten, & there will be no black marks. Yes, I know, I should not have to leave this church, I love everyone of you, but I rather be inconveniences, suffer, than to put a black mark on Jesus, & one of His churches.

Since that day many of them have came to me saying, "You were right, you did the right thing." If I had went along with it, I feel that now they would be saying that I should have just left & not caused those black marks against that church.

I promise you, doing the right thing is some times MUCH harder than doing wrong.

So be careful. And I really think that is what others here have on their mind, but I could be wrong, I am not good at 2nd guessing others.

Really hard to make a 'misstatement' Jerry, when the Church only had around 28 members in it, I was videotaping the sermon and he was looking directly at the camera several times in the message.

I stand in the back with the camera and tripod, the only one standing... kinda hard to overlook, wouldn't you think?

[JerryNumbers]

Really hard to make a 'misstatement' Jerry, when the Church only had around 28 members in it, I was videotaping the sermon and he was looking directly at the camera several times in the message.

I stand in the back with the camera and tripod, the only one standing... kinda hard to overlook, wouldn't you think?

No, that is where your 100% wrong, its easy to make a misstatement whether there's 6 or 600.

Now after you said this, I will agree with others, its way past time to drop it, there is no grace showing in your post.

[JerryNumbers]

Giving generously is ALWAYS ALWAYS blessed of God. And that's usually how my husband approaches it from the pulpit. If he does speak of money, its rarely, and its always prefaced by the fact that he's not preaching on it because HE wants to (he doesn't...and he has no clue who gives and who does not, and does not want to know) but that he's preaching on it for the sake of the PEOPLE who will be blessed of God if they give.

Its what shepherds do. For instance a shepherd will tell his flock to stay near to him...not because he's a control freak and wants to micromanage them, but because he knows there are dangers outside of his area and he wants the flock safe.

No, the ones I refereed to micromanage everything, including the money.

Christ is still the head, the pastor is the undershepard.

[JerryNumbers]

That sounds just fine as you describe it. I don't think a pastor should never mention money or giving. Just as it's not good for a pastor to overfocus upon money and giving, it's also not good to avoid the topic. Scripture speaks to issues of money and giving so that should come up in a pastors sermons from time to time; either as a portion of a sermon or the topic.

Also, all believers are at different stages in their growth, understanding and walk with Christ, so there will always be someone who needs to hear about these matters. One of the amazing blessings which comes through the Holy Ghost, is how a pastor can preach a sermon so the whole congregation gets that general message, but at the same time, the Holy Ghost makes sure folks in the congregation also get a specific message, which sometimes can seem very different from one to another. So even if some in the congregation take away the basics of the sermon on money and giving, there will be others who get a more specific message from that with regards to their situation at their point in their walk with Christ.

Your wrong, that subject has to be touched from time to time, according as the pastor is truly led by God. Don't ever muzzle the pastor.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Don't ever muzzle the pastor? What about don't lay any greater burden on the Gentile Believer's than these necessary things: that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I am not against one giving any amount to the Church, be it 1%,5%, 10%, 20% or even 60%. If God lays it on ones heart to give that much, wonderful! Be obedient to God.

What I am against is the unbiblical teaching that Gentile Believers are required to tithe their money. The teaching can be found nowhere in the Bible. Teach the congregation to give, by all mean. But teach them to give in accordance to what the Word of God says the Gentile Churches are to give.

And Jerry, I am not wrong about the pastor.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[JerryNumbers]

Don't ever muzzle the pastor? What about don't lay any greater burden on the Gentile Believer's than these necessary things: that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I am not against one giving any amount to the Church, be it 1%,5%, 10%, 20% or even 60%. If God lays it on ones heart to give that much, wonderful! Be obedient to God.

What I am against is the unbiblical teaching that Gentile Believers are required to tithe their money. The teaching can be found nowhere in the Bible. Teach the congregation to give, by all mean. But teach them to give in accordance to what the Word of God says the Gentile Churches are to give.

And Jerry, I am not wrong about the pastor.

See my last post, your using Scriptures only to prove what you want them to mean.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

See my last post, your using Scriptures only to prove what you want them to mean.

The same could be said of you, that you are using Scriptures only to prove what you want them to mean.

[JerryNumbers]

I'm through with this topic. Its not getting anywhere.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I am through too.

It is obvious some would rather put themselves under the Law, pick and choose which laws of the Mosaic Law they want to adhere to and dismiss the rest.

God's Word says if you are under the Law, you are debtor to the whole law or you are guilty of all the law.

[John81]

Your wrong, that subject has to be touched from time to time, according as the pastor is truly led by God. Don't ever muzzle the pastor.

You have misread what I wrote, but I can see how that could happen because of the way I worded it.

What I was saying is that a pastor should not avoid the subject of money and giving. As I make more clear further into that post, a pastor shouldn't overfocus on this subject but they also should not neglect to preach upon the subject from time to time.

[Anon]

I am through too.

Great! Thread locked.