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Total Inability...withou Excuse


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It's a difficult one. But Romans makes it very clear that in one way or another God has revealed Himself to man. Creation itself affirms the presence of a Creator regardless of what National Pornographic tries to prove otherwise. I personally believe that even though we live under the dispensation (covenant to some) of grace and the cross, there will be those who have never heard of God or Christ that will be judged by the law that is in the heart of EVERY created being. If one does a study of anthropology and theosophical anthropology (study of the origin of beliefs within cultures) one will always see that they have laws of right and wrong that they attempt to abide by and this is the case regardless of race, culture or creed. The how God will judge these that have never heard is something we can not know now. But we do know He is a merciful God who gave us Himself in the form of His son to die for us and there are many cases in the OT and when Christ walked as a man where those outside the Jewish belief showed a goodness of heart and a depth of faith in what was right that were granted mercy - the woman at the well being one example.
The Law came after Noah yet he was regarded as a righteous man. The method of God's saving grace has not always been the same and we would do well not to put Him in a box because our lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not saying that there are more ways to heaven than Jesus. I am saying that the knowledge of God the Creator and His Law is in the heart of every living person from birth and one only needs to see children push their boundaries to see that even a two year old knows right and wrong. I emphasize knows here because they know but do not yet understand. Remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - eating of the fruit opened there eyes? What were their eyes opened to? The knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge was an understanding of good and evil, before this understanding they were as babes.
I wonder sometimes that although we are "born" in sin because of Adam that the guilt of that sin is only imparted onto us when we UNDERSTAND what right and wrong is. If not then every child born to die a baby is in hell, every aborted fetus in hell and from what I see of God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible shows a God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability.
Like I said, it's a difficult one and sometimes all we can say is "I don't know".
Just to address the "God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability"...

In Hosea 13, we see this decree by God:

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Now, in the Law, God declared:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


So, if every man is accountable for his own sins, how come the infants were put to death? Surely they must have sinned, for God had already decreed that the children would not be put to death for their father's sins. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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I told you he teaches that regeneration is a separte act from salvation. He won't see what he just said, but there it is in black and white. That is classic Calvinism. Rubbish is what it is.

God bless,
calvary


That is not what he said at all.
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If "that which may be known of God" was manifest in me, and God had showed it to me, and it was clearly seen, but I went to Hell anyway, how was I totally inable? And if I was 'totally inable' how could I be without excuse?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


I've been preparing a message on this very passage of scripture (for future use). I'll have to pay attention to this thread. Which brings up something interesting God can put something on the heart of His children at the same time, which; is miraculous in and of itself.

Edit: This is going way off in another direction...I hope you're able to right this ship and get back to your OP. Its a good chapter to take in...in context. Edited by 1Tim115
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Lets see, no one gets to God, except though Jesus.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

One of Mr. Grahams beliefs is, that there will be people in heaven that never heard the name Christ.

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Lets see, no one gets to God, except though Jesus.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

One of Mr. Grahams beliefs is, that there will be people in heaven that never heard the name Christ.

That is a growing belief among many. Some say that if a heathen in Africa, China or elsewhere who believes there is a God, a Creator, even though he's never heard of Jesus, will be saved because he believed God existed.

Along these same lines many say if someone in a false religion is "sincere" about seeking God then they will go to heaven. According to that view, any Mormon, Muslim, Wiccan or other occults and false religionist would be granted salvation simply because they were "sincere" in wanting to find God.
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Romans 1 indisputably establishes the Biblical ("calvinistic") doctrine of total depravity, & that they are without excuse for their sin. Does it also teach that people, seeing the invisible things of God in creation, are free to repent & turn to God? Paul said to the pagan Athenians:

24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth n
ot
in temples made with hands;

......

27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be n
ot
far from every one of us:


Is there, therefore, a way of salvation for repentant sinners apart from the Gospel of Christ? Is there no condemnation for those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ & therefore cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard? If the revelation of God's being in the light of creation renders mankind without excuse, must it also provide the means of salvation?

Up to a point we can make logical deductions from Scripture, as the OP does, but our deductions MUST be constrained by Scripture. That is where the anticalvinists fail in their logic - they make their own deductions from their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine.

What did Jesus mean when he said:

Mat. 11:
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prude
nt
, and hast revealed them u
nt
o babes.

26
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27
All things are delivered u
nt
o me of my Father: and
no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28
Come u
nt
o me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


John 6:
44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath se
nt
me draw him
: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh u
nt
o me.


John 16:
8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgme
nt
:

9
Of sin, because they believe n
ot
on me;

10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11
Of judgme
nt
, because the prince of this world is judged.


The universal sinfulness of man is clear, as is his desperate need of salvation. Does sinfulness, & need, & inexcusable guilt, imply the ability to repent & believe with the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of their state? That you need to establish from Scripture if you are to make a convincing case for guilty sinners to be able to believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.


That is a strawman argument. I did not try to make a case for sinners beleiving "apart from the Holy Spirit". Absolutely not. On the contrary, the verse says God hath "showed" it unto them. He did it Himself. And as to "drawing" of the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus Himself said" and I if I be lifted up...will draw all men unto me." Friend, Jesus was indeed "lifted up" and He did exactly what He said he would do because His Holy Spirit is in this world right now drawing all men. Not only that but HE HIMSELF, the Lord Jesus Christ was the self-same one who CREATED this world and all that is in it where the verse says that God SHOWED His eternal power and Godhead in the creation. It is God, who has made himself, His power and His eternal Godhead known to man and done all of the drawing. THAT is why no one will have an excuse.
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That is a strawman argument. I did not try to make a case for sinners beleiving "apart from the Holy Spirit". Absolutely not. On the contrary, the verse says God hath "showed" it unto them. He did it Himself. And as to "drawing" of the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus Himself said" and I if I be lifted up...will draw all men unto me." Friend, Jesus was indeed "lifted up" and He did exactly what He said he would do because His Holy Spirit is in this world right now drawing all men. Not only that but HE HIMSELF, the Lord Jesus Christ was the self-same one who CREATED this world and all that is in it where the verse says that God SHOWED His eternal power and Godhead in the creation. It is God, who has made himself, His power and His eternal Godhead known to man and done all of the drawing. THAT is why no one will have an excuse.

In light of this how do we reconcile the fact God knows what would bring each person to salvation in Christ yet He doesn't bring that about in everyones life?

How do we biblically address this when confronted with this?
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In light of this how do we reconcile the fact God knows what would bring each person to salvation in Christ yet He doesn't bring that about in everyones life?

How do we biblically address this when confronted with this?


God has provided the Sacrifice for Sin, the drawing of the Holy Spirit, everything needed for salvation God has thoroughly finished. ONly...He has left one thing to us....BELEIVE. The Bible says that "faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Do you place your faith in Allah, Buddah, finances, evolution, or simply your self? Do you put your faith in a church membership, a baptism, or even that "prayer" you repeated but didn't believe what you were repeating? God wants our faith to be placed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing on Jesus is not a work. Edited by heartstrings
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Just to address the "God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability"...

In Hosea 13, we see this decree by God:
Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Now, in the Law, God declared:
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

So, if every man is accountable for his own sins, how come the infants were put to death? Surely they must have sinned, for God had already decreed that the children would not be put to death for their father's sins.


I was waiting for someone to bring up this point. You could also use the flood as an example. Many "innocents" died there too. By innocents I refer to children. You will note that I stated that God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible reflects His mercy and does so far more than it reflects His wrath.Yes we do see a wrathful, jealous and vengeful God when it comes to sin. Note that God does not command that the children be put to death in Hosea, He just states that they will be - this is the nature of war. Some believe in the "age of accountability" for children, but like I said in my earlier post, it's a difficult one and the Word does not give an exact reference to children and how accountable they are. As much as I fear and respect God's wrath, I believe in His long suffering and mercy.

But back to topic - The CONDITION for salvation is the recipients BELIEVING in the finished work of Christ. God put grace in place so that none could boast on their own strength and He put the condition in place so that none would have an excuse. We must steer clear of those that would use a few verses to try and subjugate the entire Word of God when the entire Word of God attests to mans ability to make his own choices and bear the consequences thereof.
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I was waiting for someone to bring up this point. You could also use the flood as an example. Many "innocents" died there too. By innocents I refer to children. You will note that I stated that God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible reflects His mercy and does so far more than it reflects His wrath.Yes we do see a wrathful, jealous and vengeful God when it comes to sin. Note that God does not command that the children be put to death in Hosea, He just states that they will be - this is the nature of war. Some believe in the "age of accountability" for children, but like I said in my earlier post, it's a difficult one and the Word does not give an exact reference to children and how accountable they are. As much as I fear and respect God's wrath, I believe in His long suffering and mercy.

But back to topic - The CONDITION for salvation is the recipients BELIEVING in the finished work of Christ. God put grace in place so that none could boast on their own strength and He put the condition in place so that none would have an excuse. We must steer clear of those that would use a few verses to try and subjugate the entire Word of God when the entire Word of God attests to mans ability to make his own choices and bear the consequences thereof.
Actually, according to the Word of God none that died in the flood were innocent.
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Actually, according to the Word of God none that died in the flood were innocent.



Many "innocents" died there too. By innocents I refer to children.


What in the above statement did you not understand? You have an amazing knack of taking peoples posts and twisting them. No where did I state that any were innocent of sin - the term referred to unaccountable by adult standards not biblical. Besides, I have yet to find in the Word where it says that children are accountable and held guilty of sin and though it does say that we are all born in sin it also says this:

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

And this:

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. - Sanctified through the faith of the parent! A DIFFERENT SALVATION FOR CHILDREN that are not yet of an age to understand the doctrine of salvation - prove otherwise!

Explain that?

And back to topic:

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

What about the words EVERY MAN and EVERY ONE do they not understand? Verse in context to salvation - read the whole chapter!
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God has provided the Sacrifice for Sin, the drawing of the Holy Spirit, everything needed for salvation God has thoroughly finished. ONly...He has left one thing to us....BELEIVE. The Bible says that "faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Do you place your faith in Allah, Buddah, finances, evolution, or simply your self? Do you put your faith in a church membership, a baptism, or even that "prayer" you repeated but didn't believe what you were repeating? God wants our faith to be placed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing on Jesus is not a work.

I agree but think perhaps you missed the point of my question.

What about the multiple millions who never heard of Jesus? How were they to have opportunity for salvation if they never heard of Christ or the Gospel?

More directly to the specific question, since God knows what it would take in each persons life for them to be born again in Christ, why does He move so in some lives but not in others?

For myself, I typically answer that God's ways are not our ways and we can't know His thoughts. I'm content to trust God knows what He's doing. However, that answer doesn't satisfy those lost souls, as well as many professing Christians, who ask about these matters.
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I was waiting for someone to bring up this point. You could also use the flood as an example. Many "innocents" died there too. By innocents I refer to children. You will note that I stated that God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible reflects His mercy and does so far more than it reflects His wrath.Yes we do see a wrathful, jealous and vengeful God when it comes to sin. Note that God does not command that the children be put to death in Hosea, He just states that they will be - this is the nature of war. Some believe in the "age of accountability" for children, but like I said in my earlier post, it's a difficult one and the Word does not give an exact reference to children and how accountable they are. As much as I fear and respect God's wrath, I believe in His long suffering and mercy.

But back to topic - The CONDITION for salvation is the recipients BELIEVING in the finished work of Christ. God put grace in place so that none could boast on their own strength and He put the condition in place so that none would have an excuse. We must steer clear of those that would use a few verses to try and subjugate the entire Word of God when the entire Word of God attests to mans ability to make his own choices and bear the consequences thereof.

God did command the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child of several "ites" when they conquered the Promised Land.

When we look at the law God handed down for the governing of Israel, children who are rebellious are commanded to be stoned. No age for the children is given which leaves it open that at whatever age the children are horribly rebellious they are responsible for not obeying and honouring their parents under penalty of death.

Also, with regards to all the rest of the law for governing Israel it should be noted there are no exceptions made for those of certain younger ages as is the case in the modern Western world. Even in the Western world, in years gone by, children and adults were both held to the same laws and penalties. If a child commited murder, was found guilty, they were put to death.

God's thoughts are so much higher than mine that I can't grasp all these matters. Nowhere does Scripture say that anyone goes to heaven without being born again in Christ, not even children. Nowhere does Scripture say that aborted babies, babies who are stillborn, children who die young (or anyone else for that matter) have a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Scripture does say that all are born in sin.

Since Scripture isn't clear on these matters I simply trust God knows best even if He doesn't share with us all we would like to know right now.
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