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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

God's Need To Be Worshiped?


2Tim215
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

God is passionately committed to his fame. God's ultimate goal is that his name be known and praised by all the peoples of the earth.


Smelled calvinistic to me. If you're not a calvinst, my appologies. I set up no 'straw man', sir.
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Smelled calvinistic to me. If you're not a calvinst, my appologies. I set up no 'straw man', sir.


Smells calvinistic? The glory of God is a calvinistic doctrine? Since when?

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


That's up in eternity. God being glorified by every class of person.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


That's up in eternity. God being glorified by all. He is to be glorified. That ain't calvinism my friend, that's simple BIble.

Your supposed heretic hunting falls flat. Calvinsim smalvinism, the BIble is clear that God eternal desires are to be glorified by His creation. That''s not baptist dogma or reformed theology, that is simply quoting the BIble. Wow, and you somehow found fault with it? Takes all kinds to make a world.

God bless,
calvary
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God has glory
God had glory before the world existed
God will get glory
God DESERVES glory

But you said

]God's ultimate goal is that his name be known and praised

Where do you get from the Bible that this is God's "ultimate goal"?
I have no problem with God's glory, and never said so...."it's your ultimate goal thing I take issue with.
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Lev 10:3; Is 26:15; Is 44:23; Is 49:3; Is 60:20; Is 61:3; Is 66:5; Ez 28:22; Ez 39:13; Hag 1:8; Mat 9:8; Mat 15:31; Mark 2:12; Lk 4:15; Lk 5:26; Lk 7:16; Lk 23:47; Jn 7:39; Jn 11:4; Jn 12:16; Jn 12:28; Jn 15:8; Jn 17:14; Jn 17:10; Acts 3:13; Acts 4:21; Acts 21:20; Gal 1:24; 2 Th 1:10; 2 Th 1:12; 1 Pet 4:11; 1 Pet 4:14

Gee I don't know. I guess out of thin air.

Wow. Some folks will defend their foolishness to the extreme. God's glorification in our lives, in the world, in the universe and in eternity. That's what it's all about ultimately. In the end there is nothing else worth doing. If it isn't glorfying God, then what is it?

God bless

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Calvary,
Because a self serving god is the god of the "reformed" calvinistic agenda. It'sthe same thing they push. "God seeking His own glory" may appear to be innocent, appears to be right, may sound good but it's part of a false gospel of a false Christ with a false glory, and those who propagate it may seem right as well. but they are false teachers. 2 corinthians 11: 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Romans 1: 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. ''Another Jesus" is worse than idolatry. The next step. after they convince you that "God is only interested in glory" is that his predetermining of some folks to go to Hell for the glory of it is righteous and good but our finite minds are incapable of comprehending that. Liars! I suppose the aztec priests taught their devotees that Huizilopchitli was righteous and good right before they ripped their hearts out, huh? The Bible says that man KNOWS what's good and what's evil.


That is untrue and slanderous.

Calvinists teach no such thing. God did not predestine any sinner to go to Hell. All sinners deserved and would be destined to Hell. God predestined some to salvation, (it is in the bible, KJV) else none would be saved.


Immortal honors rest on Jesus’ head;
My God, my portion, and my Living Bread;
In Him I live, upon Him cast my care;
He saves from death, destruction, and despair.
He is my Refuge in each deep distress;
The Lord my strength and glorious righteousness;
Through floods and flames He leads me safely on,
And daily makes His sovereign goodness known.
My every need He richly will supply;
Nor will His mercy ever let me die;
In Him there dwells a treasure all divine,
And matchless grace has made that treasure mine.
O that my soul could love and praise Him more,
His beauties trace, His majesty adore;
Live near His heart, upon His bosom lean;
Obey His voice, and all His will esteem.

Wm Gadsby Edited by Invicta
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That is untrue and slanderous.

Calvinists teach no such thing. God did not predestine any sinner to go to Hell. All sinners deserved and would be destined to Hell. God predestined some to salvation, (it is in the bible, KJV) else none would be saved.


Immortal honors rest on Jesus’ head;
My God, my portion, and my Living Bread;
In Him I live, upon Him cast my care;
He saves from death, destruction, and despair.
He is my Refuge in each deep distress;
The Lord my strength and glorious righteousness;
Through floods and flames He leads me safely on,
And daily makes His sovereign goodness known.
My every need He richly will supply;
Nor will His mercy ever let me die;
In Him there dwells a treasure all divine,
And matchless grace has made that treasure mine.
O that my soul could love and praise Him more,
His beauties trace, His majesty adore;
Live near His heart, upon His bosom lean;
Obey His voice, and all His will esteem.

Wm Gadsby


It's actually true. Here is a quote from a well-known Calvinist's website........
The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8). By definition, the decision to elect some individuals to salvation necessarily implies the decision not to save those that were not chosen. God ordains not only that some will be rescued from his judgment, but that others will undergo that judgment.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist
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Well I suppose it is scriptural. After all Jesus said that he spoke in parables to people so they would not believe and be saved.


I didn't post Piper's quote to AGREE with you . I posted it to show that you falsely acused me of slander and untruth because I had said that Calvinists DO teach those things. Piper and others teach "double predestination';meaning that God predestines some to Hell.
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The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.

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The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.


For years I could never understand why some believed that God was "picky" concerning who was going to be saved and then I realized that it was nothing more than man's need to be "special", "chosen", "set aside" and that they were usually people that had some serious sin in their lives and this "need" stemmed from their not being able to accept and understand God's unconditional forgiveness. May be wrong here, but this is the only way I can understand an untrue doctrine that teaches that some are better than others when all are equal in God's eyes and that equality means nothing more than ALL are sinners and need Christ.
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The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.
No - Reformed doctrine demands subjection to the Word of God, not to Calvin or any man-made system of doctrine. "Calvinism is a nickname.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.
We believe in the absolute truth of those verses - there is no rejection of the repentant sinner by God. Sadly, all are born sinners - dead in trespasses & sins - and are doomed to hell apart from repentance & saving faith. Do you not believe that?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.
If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?

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Jerry80871852, on 08 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:
The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.
No - Reformed doctrine demands subjection to the Word of God, not to Calvin or any man-made system of doctrine. "Calvinism is a nickname.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.
We believe in the absolute truth of those verses - there is no rejection of the repentant sinner by God. Sadly, all are born sinners - dead in trespasses & sins - and are doomed to hell apart from repentance & saving faith. Do you not believe that?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.
If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?

DHUUUUUU! Free will !!!



Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.
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If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that mean in everyday English: "How often was it my WILL to gather your children together but you did not WANT or "WILL" that.


On May the 11th, 1986, He allowed me to choose between life and death; "Life" meaning the Lord Jesus Christ, and "death" meaning total separation from God for all eternity in the Lake of Fire. His will is to allow choice, and His will is that we all choose Him. WE must choose to accept Him or reject Him..

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
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For years I could never understand why some believed that God was "picky" concerning who was going to be saved and then I realized that it was nothing more than man's need to be "special", "chosen", "set aside" and that they were usually people that had some serious sin in their lives and this "need" stemmed from their not being able to accept and understand God's unconditional forgiveness. May be wrong here, but this is the only way I can understand an untrue doctrine that teaches that some are better than others when all are equal in God's eyes and that equality means nothing more than ALL are sinners and need Christ.


I think your correct, I think it makes those pastors feel they have a hold over their congregation, & that somehow protect them from them moving on.

And it seems like they turn around what true believes teach, just as Covenanter seems to have turned around what I stated, seemly to imply that I stated men who do not even repent, confess, Jesus as Savior, can enter heaven, when I stated that the teachings of the reformed was that a certain group of people, according to then, not God, are born doomed for hell, cannot repent, cannot confess, cannot not accept Jesus as Savior while God states He draws all men to Him, that all men can repent, can confess, can accept Jesus as Savior.

And of course, those who refuse, ignore, Jesus, will forever be lost in their sins, but it will be by their choice, not God's choice, as I have shown in the verses I posted..

If Covenanter did not mean it that way, I apologize, but that is what I read in his post.
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.


Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.


It's all very well and good to say -

Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.


But you will note that I asked some questions too - have underlined them in cased you missed them - I challenge you to answer them with scripture to back your answers! And here are some points for you to consider:

Before the cross:

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

After the cross:

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And just in case you don't know what "IF" means:

if/if/
Conjunction: Introducing a conditional clause. Noun: A condition or supposition: "there are so many ifs and buts in the policy". Synonyms:
conjunction. whether - when - in case - supposing
noun. condition

if [ɪf]
conj (subordinating)
1. in case that, or on condition that if you try hard it might work if he were poor, would you marry him?
2. used to introduce an indirect question. In this sense, if approaches the meaning of whether
3. even though an attractive if awkward girl
4.
a. used to introduce expressions of desire, with only if I had only known
b. used to introduce exclamations of surprise, dismay, etc. if this doesn't top everything!

as if as it would be if; as though he treats me as if I were junior to him
n
1. an uncertainty or doubt the big if is whether our plan will work at all
2. a condition or stipulation I won't have any ifs or buts
[Old English gif; related to Old Saxon ef if, Old High German iba whether, if]


So what is a conjunction:


A Subordinating Conjunction (sometimes called a dependent word or subordinator) comes at the beginning of a Subordinate (or Dependent) Clause and establishes the relationship between the dependent clause and the rest of the sentence. It also turns the clause into something that depends on the rest of the sentence for its meaning.
  • He took to the stage as though he had been preparing for this moment all his life.
  • Because he loved acting, he refused to give up his dream of being in the movies.
  • Unless we act now, all is lost.


All this proves a condition on the part of the listener, believer, reciever - that being US. And here is why:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So that God can not ever be held accountable by man as He has given every posiible excape route for us to be saved from sin and death.

CAN IT NOT BE ANY SIMPLER?!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited by 2Tim215
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.

The problem is that most of the anti-calvinists on this forum build on their own misunderstanding of Reformed doctrine. Reformed doctrine is built on Scripture - ALL Scripture.

We CANNOT deny human responsibility & choice when we maintain God's sovereignty. Both are plainly taught in Scripture. ALL are by nature & by choice sinners, guilty before a holy God, & condemned to hell for that guilt. Everyone's favourite Gospel text continues:
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only beg
ot
ten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should n
ot
perish, but have everlasting life.

17
For God se
nt
n
ot
his Son i
nt
o the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18
He that believeth on him is n
ot
condemned: but he that believeth n
ot
is condemned already, because he hath n
ot
believed in the name of the only beg
ot
ten Son of God.

19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come i
nt
o the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

......

36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth n
ot
the Son shall n
ot
see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


No-one who believeth on the Son will be turned away - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.

However, Jesus has declared: this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Who then can be saved? We also loved darkness rather than light, because their [our] deeds were evil. How were we changed from rebel sinners to those who doeth truth [&] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God?

In a wonderful way God the Holy Spirit renews our hearts & minds & wills. He shows us our sin, & shows us our Saviour, so that we do come to the light. We do freely & eagerly make the choice - the choice we once rejected. We have eternal life, through God-given faith in Jesus. We are born again of the Holy Spirit. All of grace.

Invicta:
Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.

No, Invicta - 2Tim215 is arguing from an anti-calvinist misunderstanding that makes us all, elect & reprobate, mere puppets of a capricious god. We do have our responsibility for our actions, our faith, our courage & our sins, but God the Holy Spirit is working within us, giving us the grace to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In context:
12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always
ob
eyed, n
ot
as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13
For it is God which worketh in you b
ot
h to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If you are saying that God works in the hearts of men to lead them to Him, then I agree. BUT I do not believe that it is only the hearts of certain "chosen" people that God decides to work with. He works in the hearts of EVERY humane being ever born through the glory of creation, His Word, His messengers, etc (read Romans) but we have the God given ability to choose to listen or not, to believe or not, to follow or not and to obey or not.

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So that God can not ever be held accountable by man as He has given every posiible excape route for us to be saved from sin and death.


I agree "that God can not ever be held accountable by man" but has he indeed "given every possible escape route for us to be saved from sin and death?" Some still have never heard the Gospel.

As for all those Ifs, they are, of course, all true & valid. I'll just consider one:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Amen! Hallelujah!
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
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      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
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      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
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      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
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      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
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      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
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      6
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      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
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      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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