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God's Need To Be Worshiped?


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The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.


For years I could never understand why some believed that God was "picky" concerning who was going to be saved and then I realized that it was nothing more than man's need to be "special", "chosen", "set aside" and that they were usually people that had some serious sin in their lives and this "need" stemmed from their not being able to accept and understand God's unconditional forgiveness. May be wrong here, but this is the only way I can understand an untrue doctrine that teaches that some are better than others when all are equal in God's eyes and that equality means nothing more than ALL are sinners and need Christ.
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The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.
No - Reformed doctrine demands subjection to the Word of God, not to Calvin or any man-made system of doctrine. "Calvinism is a nickname.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.
We believe in the absolute truth of those verses - there is no rejection of the repentant sinner by God. Sadly, all are born sinners - dead in trespasses & sins - and are doomed to hell apart from repentance & saving faith. Do you not believe that?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.
If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?

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Jerry80871852, on 08 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:
The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.
No - Reformed doctrine demands subjection to the Word of God, not to Calvin or any man-made system of doctrine. "Calvinism is a nickname.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.
We believe in the absolute truth of those verses - there is no rejection of the repentant sinner by God. Sadly, all are born sinners - dead in trespasses & sins - and are doomed to hell apart from repentance & saving faith. Do you not believe that?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.
If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?

DHUUUUUU! Free will !!!



Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.
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If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that mean in everyday English: "How often was it my WILL to gather your children together but you did not WANT or "WILL" that.


On May the 11th, 1986, He allowed me to choose between life and death; "Life" meaning the Lord Jesus Christ, and "death" meaning total separation from God for all eternity in the Lake of Fire. His will is to allow choice, and His will is that we all choose Him. WE must choose to accept Him or reject Him..

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
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For years I could never understand why some believed that God was "picky" concerning who was going to be saved and then I realized that it was nothing more than man's need to be "special", "chosen", "set aside" and that they were usually people that had some serious sin in their lives and this "need" stemmed from their not being able to accept and understand God's unconditional forgiveness. May be wrong here, but this is the only way I can understand an untrue doctrine that teaches that some are better than others when all are equal in God's eyes and that equality means nothing more than ALL are sinners and need Christ.


I think your correct, I think it makes those pastors feel they have a hold over their congregation, & that somehow protect them from them moving on.

And it seems like they turn around what true believes teach, just as Covenanter seems to have turned around what I stated, seemly to imply that I stated men who do not even repent, confess, Jesus as Savior, can enter heaven, when I stated that the teachings of the reformed was that a certain group of people, according to then, not God, are born doomed for hell, cannot repent, cannot confess, cannot not accept Jesus as Savior while God states He draws all men to Him, that all men can repent, can confess, can accept Jesus as Savior.

And of course, those who refuse, ignore, Jesus, will forever be lost in their sins, but it will be by their choice, not God's choice, as I have shown in the verses I posted..

If Covenanter did not mean it that way, I apologize, but that is what I read in his post.
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.


Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.


It's all very well and good to say -

Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.


But you will note that I asked some questions too - have underlined them in cased you missed them - I challenge you to answer them with scripture to back your answers! And here are some points for you to consider:

Before the cross:

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

After the cross:

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And just in case you don't know what "IF" means:

if/if/
Conjunction: Introducing a conditional clause. Noun: A condition or supposition: "there are so many ifs and buts in the policy". Synonyms:
conjunction. whether - when - in case - supposing
noun. condition

if [ɪf]
conj (subordinating)
1. in case that, or on condition that if you try hard it might work if he were poor, would you marry him?
2. used to introduce an indirect question. In this sense, if approaches the meaning of whether
3. even though an attractive if awkward girl
4.
a. used to introduce expressions of desire, with only if I had only known
b. used to introduce exclamations of surprise, dismay, etc. if this doesn't top everything!

as if as it would be if; as though he treats me as if I were junior to him
n
1. an uncertainty or doubt the big if is whether our plan will work at all
2. a condition or stipulation I won't have any ifs or buts
[Old English gif; related to Old Saxon ef if, Old High German iba whether, if]


So what is a conjunction:


A Subordinating Conjunction (sometimes called a dependent word or subordinator) comes at the beginning of a Subordinate (or Dependent) Clause and establishes the relationship between the dependent clause and the rest of the sentence. It also turns the clause into something that depends on the rest of the sentence for its meaning.
  • He took to the stage as though he had been preparing for this moment all his life.
  • Because he loved acting, he refused to give up his dream of being in the movies.
  • Unless we act now, all is lost.


All this proves a condition on the part of the listener, believer, reciever - that being US. And here is why:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So that God can not ever be held accountable by man as He has given every posiible excape route for us to be saved from sin and death.

CAN IT NOT BE ANY SIMPLER?!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited by 2Tim215
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Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.

The problem is that most of the anti-calvinists on this forum build on their own misunderstanding of Reformed doctrine. Reformed doctrine is built on Scripture - ALL Scripture.

We CANNOT deny human responsibility & choice when we maintain God's sovereignty. Both are plainly taught in Scripture. ALL are by nature & by choice sinners, guilty before a holy God, & condemned to hell for that guilt. Everyone's favourite Gospel text continues:
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only beg
ot
ten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should n
ot
perish, but have everlasting life.

17
For God se
nt
n
ot
his Son i
nt
o the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18
He that believeth on him is n
ot
condemned: but he that believeth n
ot
is condemned already, because he hath n
ot
believed in the name of the only beg
ot
ten Son of God.

19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come i
nt
o the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

......

36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth n
ot
the Son shall n
ot
see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


No-one who believeth on the Son will be turned away - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.

However, Jesus has declared: this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Who then can be saved? We also loved darkness rather than light, because their [our] deeds were evil. How were we changed from rebel sinners to those who doeth truth [&] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God?

In a wonderful way God the Holy Spirit renews our hearts & minds & wills. He shows us our sin, & shows us our Saviour, so that we do come to the light. We do freely & eagerly make the choice - the choice we once rejected. We have eternal life, through God-given faith in Jesus. We are born again of the Holy Spirit. All of grace.

Invicta:
Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.

No, Invicta - 2Tim215 is arguing from an anti-calvinist misunderstanding that makes us all, elect & reprobate, mere puppets of a capricious god. We do have our responsibility for our actions, our faith, our courage & our sins, but God the Holy Spirit is working within us, giving us the grace to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In context:
12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always
ob
eyed, n
ot
as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13
For it is God which worketh in you b
ot
h to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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If you are saying that God works in the hearts of men to lead them to Him, then I agree. BUT I do not believe that it is only the hearts of certain "chosen" people that God decides to work with. He works in the hearts of EVERY humane being ever born through the glory of creation, His Word, His messengers, etc (read Romans) but we have the God given ability to choose to listen or not, to believe or not, to follow or not and to obey or not.

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So that God can not ever be held accountable by man as He has given every posiible excape route for us to be saved from sin and death.


I agree "that God can not ever be held accountable by man" but has he indeed "given every possible escape route for us to be saved from sin and death?" Some still have never heard the Gospel.

As for all those Ifs, they are, of course, all true & valid. I'll just consider one:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Amen! Hallelujah!
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I agree "that God can not ever be held accountable by man" but has he indeed "given every possible escape route for us to be saved from sin and death?" Some still have never heard the Gospel.



Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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If you are saying that God works in the hearts of men to lead them to Him, then I agree. BUT I do not believe that it is only the hearts of certain "chosen" people that God decides to work with. He works in the hearts of EVERY humane being ever born through the glory of creation, His Word, His messengers, etc (read Romans) but we have the God given ability to choose to listen or not, to believe or not, to follow or not and to obey or not.


Hey brother. Covenant man is saying that the Holy Ghost regenerates you BEFORE you can obey Romans 10. Get it? True Reformed, Calvinism, or classic reformed theology places regeneration before salvation due to their chronology of events. According to the Calvinists (sorry for labeling Covenant, but it is what it is) you are dead in sins, a dead man therefore cannot call upon the Lord unless he has been quickened, hence, regeneration of and by the H.S must occurr prior to the awakened conscience, mind, heart, etc ... can "call upon the name of the Lord"

He'll deny this of course. But that's it in a nutshell. Typically the reformed class don't like their positions being boiled down to a simple analysis like that.

One of the clearest Biblical examples of free will overiding the decrees of God is found in David. 1 Samuel 23 David inquires of God to find His will on a matter. "Will Saul come down, as thy servant heard?" The Lord said "He will come down". (And he did come down)
David inquires, "Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?"
God says, THEY WILL deliver thee up.

They don't. They didn't. David simply used his free will and changed the outcome. Which is what sinners do every day on both sides of the coin. Some deny God's eternal decrees about the destiny of a sinner by repenting and recieving Christ. Others deny God's will by rejecting His love and forgivenenss and thereby end up in hell, which was never His will for them. So, man's free will acts and violates God's will daily.

To the reformed their error lies in equating God's eternal decress, the sovereignity of God and His will as all a concrete, inflexible unthwartable action. Thus, the "Irresistible Grace" nonesense. The "predestinated unto... " foolishness. And most notably, the idea that the unregenerate cannot inquire of the Lord, cannot have any understanding of their condition prior to regeneration or any ability to of their own accord to fleee to the loving arms of a God who desires to save them.


Too bad this thread went the way of another usless debate on "Calvinism"

God bless,
calvary
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True, but the agenda of "Irresistible Grace", etc will be pushed every time there is an opening. The bible is the whole truth and must be taken in it's entirety, I never believe those who use it to push a single doctrine. And if one reads it in it's entirety one will see that regeneration is always after salvation not before, that's why it's been called "born again"
Unless we "gestate" for 9 months while He regenerates us and then are born again. :th_wellduh: But seeing as this is now :ot: lets get :11backtotopic: .

Edited by 2Tim215
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Hey brother. Covenant man is saying that the Holy Ghost regenerates you BEFORE you can obey Romans 10. Get it? True Reformed, Calvinism, or classic reformed theology places regeneration before salvation due to their chronology of events. According to the Calvinists (sorry for labeling Covenant, but it is what it is) you are dead in sins, a dead man therefore cannot call upon the Lord unless he has been quickened, hence, regeneration of and by the H.S must occurr prior to the awakened conscience, mind, heart, etc ... can "call upon the name of the Lord"

He'll deny this of course. But that's it in a nutshell. Typically the reformed class don't like their positions being boiled down to a simple analysis like that.

One of the clearest Biblical examples of free will overiding the decrees of God is found in David. 1 Samuel 23 David inquires of God to find His will on a matter. "Will Saul come down, as thy servant heard?" The Lord said "He will come down". (And he did come down)
David inquires, "Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?"
God says, THEY WILL deliver thee up.

They don't. They didn't. David simply used his free will and changed the outcome. Which is what sinners do every day on both sides of the coin. Some deny God's eternal decrees about the destiny of a sinner by repenting and recieving Christ. Others deny God's will by rejecting His love and forgivenenss and thereby end up in hell, which was never His will for them. So, man's free will acts and violates God's will daily.

To the reformed their error lies in equating God's eternal decress, the sovereignity of God and His will as all a concrete, inflexible unthwartable action. Thus, the "Irresistible Grace" nonesense. The "predestinated unto... " foolishness. And most notably, the idea that the unregenerate cannot inquire of the Lord, cannot have any understanding of their condition prior to regeneration or any ability to of their own accord to fleee to the loving arms of a God who desires to save them.


Too bad this thread went the way of another usless debate on "Calvinism"

God bless,
calvary


I'm very proud that someone around here understands this dangerous doctrine.
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