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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

God's Need To Be Worshiped?


2Tim215
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

God's need to be worshiped? This is a question I have been pondering for some time now and would appreciate some outside input (with scripture). Why must we worship God? Does He "need" it? Whose benefit is it for, His or ours? We are commanded to worship Him, but why? We look at a man or woman who needs the devotion of those around him and call them vain, egotistical, etc yet right through scripture we see God demanding that we worship Him. Adam was created as a companion to God if my understanding is correct. This would make him an "almost" equal? Was Adam created to worship God? I don't think so as I understand that the Angels were created to serve and worship Him and we are above them in Christ. As Adam was before his sin. So why the "need" for our worship?

This may be a bit convoluted and I am not calling God vain here so feel free to correct me where needed.

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This would be a long topic to study completely. I'm not sure if God "needs" worship but it's obvious God at the very least desires worship. We see in Scripture there are those around His throne which worship Him continually.

No doubt, God is worthy of worship and deserves our worship.

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The Bible says that true worshippers, worship Him in spirit and in truth.....and He seeketh such to worship Him.
To worship God is to love and adore Him, with joy and gratitude in your heart. The Bible says that Jesus endured the cross for the JOY set before Him.
Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost, the Bible says. God wants to give that to us.

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God is passionately committed to his fame. God's ultimate goal is that his name be known and praised by all the peoples of the earth.
In Romans 9:17, Paul says that God's goal in redeeming Israel that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. In Isaiah 66:19, God promised that he would send messengers, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. I believe that the central command of world missions can be seen in Isaiah 12:4, "Make known his deeds among the peoples, proclaim that his name is exalted." And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
The apostle Paul said that his ministry as a missionary was for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Romans 1:5
The apostle John said that missionaries are those who that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. 3 John 7
James, the Lord's brother, described missions as how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Act 15:14
Jesus described missionaries as those who leave houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake. Matthew 19:29.

God's passion to be known and praised by all the peoples of the earth is not selfish, but loving.
God is the one being in the universe for which self-exaltation is the ultimate loving act. And the reason is easy to see. The one and only truth in the universe that can fully and eternally satisfy the human heart is the glory of God -- the beauty of all that God is for us in Jesus. Perhaps the best way to see that God's passion for his fame is an expression of his love is to notice that God's mercy is the pinnacle of his glory. This is what he wants to be honored for above all else. You can see this in Romans 15:9 where Paul says that the reason Christ came into the world was so that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Do you see how conviction #1 and #2 come together in that little phrase: "glorify God for his mercy"? God gets the glory, we get the mercy. God is praised, we are saved. God gets the honor, we get the joy. God is glorified for his fullness; we are satisfied with his mercy.
So to sum up there are two basic problems in the universe: God is profaned and people are perishing. Conviction #1 says that God will not suffer his name to be dishonored indefinitely, but will act to vindicate his name and glorify himself among the nations. Conviction #2 says that God has planned a way to do this by saving the perishing through the death of his Son, Jesus, and making them a worshipping people who enjoy his glory. In the sacrifice of his own Son for the sake of the nations, God reveals the pinnacle of his glory -- his mercy. So the salvation of the nations and the glorification of God happen together in missions. They are not at odds. It is a loving thing for God to pursue his glory like this.

God bless,
Calvary

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God is passionately committed to his fame. God's ultimate goal is that his name be known and praised by all the peoples of the earth.
In Romans 9:17, Paul says that God's goal in redeeming Israel that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. In Isaiah 66:19, God promised that he would send messengers, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. I believe that the central command of world missions can be seen in Isaiah 12:4, "Make known his deeds among the peoples, proclaim that his name is exalted." And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
The apostle Paul said that his ministry as a missionary was for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Romans 1:5
The apostle John said that missionaries are those who that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. 3 John 7
James, the Lord's brother, described missions as how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Act 15:14
Jesus described missionaries as those who leave houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake. Matthew 19:29.

God's passion to be known and praised by all the peoples of the earth is not selfish, but loving.
God is the one being in the universe for which self-exaltation is the ultimate loving act. And the reason is easy to see. The one and only truth in the universe that can fully and eternally satisfy the human heart is the glory of God -- the beauty of all that God is for us in Jesus. Perhaps the best way to see that God's passion for his fame is an expression of his love is to notice that God's mercy is the pinnacle of his glory. This is what he wants to be honored for above all else. You can see this in Romans 15:9 where Paul says that the reason Christ came into the world was so that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Do you see how conviction #1 and #2 come together in that little phrase: "glorify God for his mercy"? God gets the glory, we get the mercy. God is praised, we are saved. God gets the honor, we get the joy. God is glorified for his fullness; we are satisfied with his mercy.
So to sum up there are two basic problems in the universe: God is profaned and people are perishing. Conviction #1 says that God will not suffer his name to be dishonored indefinitely, but will act to vindicate his name and glorify himself among the nations. Conviction #2 says that God has planned a way to do this by saving the perishing through the death of his Son, Jesus, and making them a worshipping people who enjoy his glory. In the sacrifice of his own Son for the sake of the nations, God reveals the pinnacle of his glory -- his mercy. So the salvation of the nations and the glorification of God happen together in missions. They are not at odds. It is a loving thing for God to pursue his glory like this.

God bless,
Calvary


Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the fame? that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


Is that what your Bible says?
That sounds strangely similar to the stuff they were pushing at the the IFB church we left a few months back. They were also reading the works of John Piper from the pulpit and passing them off as sermons, saying things like "God's main goal is His glory" and "Paul was chosen before he was born",

The whole theme of the Bible is Christ and His work on Calvary where He manifested Himself and His true glory. It does say that he despised the shame (opposite of glory), but His main purpose for going to that cross was "for the joy". Psalm 51 says 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. When the woman of Samaria was filled with the living water, it was joy bubbling over in her soul that made her tell others, the same with the wild man of Gadara and many others. Jesus and the Father already had glory 'before the world was".
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Adam was never equal to God, not even close, God created Adam out of the dirt from the ground which He created. God, has always been, & will always be, He has no beginning or end. there is nothing nor no one even remotely equal to God. And God is the only One that ever created anything out of nothing. Man speaks about creating, yet he never creates, He takes something that God created, them forms it into something, that is not creating something from nothing.

And it seems God created all things, including man, for His pleasure.

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And He seeks men who will worship Him in truth & in spirit.


Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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Adam was never equal to God, not even close, God created Adam out of the dirt from the ground which He created. God, has always been, & will always be, He has no beginning or end. there is nothing nor no one even remotely equal to God. And God is the only One that ever created anything out of nothing. Man speaks about creating, yet he never creates, He takes something that God created, them forms it into something, that is not creating something from nothing.

And it seems God created all things, including man, for His pleasure.

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And He seeks men who will worship Him in truth & in spirit.


Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


I did not imply that Adam raised himself up as equal to God. Did God not create Adam as a companion? Was Adam not created in His image after His own likeness? Does this not imply that God CREATED Adam as an equal and I don't mean equal as in the same but as in the same as a husband and wife are equal yet not? Are we not the bride of Christ who is the "new Adam" (1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.) Is this not the same type of relationship? Is Christ not God? Go back and read your bible and you will see that Adam was created as higher than the angels and as more than your post implies. It is us who are in a fallen state but not after we are saved - then we are raised up from nothing to something.

If Christ is equal to God and we are His Bride what does that make us? By His grace we are seated in heavenly places WITH Him. By His grace He created Adam in His image after His own likeness. So what does that make Adam - nothing?
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Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the fame? that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


Is that what your Bible says?
That sounds strangely similar to the stuff they were pushing at the the IFB church we left a few months back. They were also reading the works of John Piper from the pulpit and passing them off as sermons, saying things like "God's main goal is His glory" and "Paul was chosen before he was born",

The whole theme of the Bible is Christ and His work on Calvary where He manifested Himself and His true glory. It does say that he despised the shame (opposite of glory), but His main purpose for going to that cross was "for the joy". Psalm 51 says 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. When the woman of Samaria was filled with the living water, it was joy bubbling over in her soul that made her tell others, the same with the wild man of Gadara and many others. Jesus and the Father already had glory 'before the world was".


Is there something wrong with the verses I cited? Are they not in the BIble?

How about these?

And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,

And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

You shouldn't place modern defintions over KJB words. Fame simply means knowledge. And yes, the Bible clearly states that God does desire that his fame be spread amongst the nations.

The OP asked about the glory of God, I stated nothing that would detract from Jesus Christ as you seem toi intimate. Fame. A good Bible word.

God bless,
Calvary
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I've had these same questions. Calvary, I didn't *quite* understand what you meant, but it sounded good, I think. haha. Part of it, I have always just figured, has to do with our finite, sinful mind as opposed to God's mind. God says that the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. So, down here, we are automatically turned off by someone who lifts themselves up and demands attention. However...that "wisdom" is foolishness...so many times in the Bible God does things or desires things against human logic. I've heard nonbelievers use the Old Testament and things God did as proof that Christianity is a violent religion. Again...God did a lot of things that we don't understand outside of just faith, and understanding the symbolism.

I think in a way, there is just something about God being eternal, the I AM, that is so great and wonderful that we can't really even grasp it...we have absolutely no earthly experience with anyone we respect enough to worship, so its hard to get our minds wrapped around God, I think.

Well, that's how I've explained it to myself, anyway. I will say it is difficult to worship God, as a sinful being.

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Your quote from your original post when you started this topic.


. Adam was created as a companion to God if my understanding is correct. This would make him an "almost" equal?


You said it, I didn't, I just pointed out that Adam was not even, as you say, "almost equal," to God. I stated, Adam was not almost equal to God, & God created all thing, even man for His pleasure.

Are you disagreeing? Edited by Jerry80871852
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I've had these same questions. Calvary, I didn't *quite* understand what you meant, but it sounded good, I think. haha. Part of it, I have always just figured, has to do with our finite, sinful mind as opposed to God's mind. God says that the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. So, down here, we are automatically turned off by someone who lifts themselves up and demands attention. However...that "wisdom" is foolishness...so many times in the Bible God does things or desires things against human logic. I've heard nonbelievers use the Old Testament and things God did as proof that Christianity is a violent religion. Again...God did a lot of things that we don't understand outside of just faith, and understanding the symbolism.

I think in a way, there is just something about God being eternal, the I AM, that is so great and wonderful that we can't really even grasp it...we have absolutely no earthly experience with anyone we respect enough to worship, so its hard to get our minds wrapped around God, I think.

Well, that's how I've explained it to myself, anyway. I will say it is difficult to worship God, as a sinful being.


The OP asked about God and His desire to be worshipped. I think that God has tailored a system that lends to His being worshipped because He is merciful. We praise HIm for His mercy, His goodness, whether it is through the direct action of God or through His administration (the church, the brethren, circumstances turned to our favor...)
I recalled reading the quote (apologies to heart for not offering it) and I thought it was Dr Charles Keen, not Piper. The issue is this. Does God recieve worship and in what forms? Does He arrange the affairs of men that no matter what, He is worshipped? That is fatalism, and I don't know about that. But I do know that the scriptures declare that God does in fact desire worship of His person. God does in fact intervene in the history of man to in fact be worshipped. He does so by demostrating His mercy. I find that to be a facinating dynamic. God's glory is manifested through His mercy to sinful men. Mind boggling stuff for me at least.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was culled from a message from Dr Charles Keen. Founder of Bearing Precious Seed, former pastor of 1st Baptist in MIlford OH, and now founder and global evangelist of First Missions International.

God bless,
Calvary
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Is there something wrong with the verses I cited? Are they not in the BIble?

How about these?

And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,

And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

You shouldn't place modern defintions over KJB words. Fame simply means knowledge. And yes, the Bible clearly states that God does desire that his fame be spread amongst the nations.

The OP asked about the glory of God, I stated nothing that would detract from Jesus Christ as you seem toi intimate. Fame. A good Bible word.

God bless,
Calvary


Word Origin & History

fame

late 13c., "celebrity,renown," from O.Fr. fame, from L. fama "talk, rumor, report,reputation," from PIE base *bha- "to speak, tell, say" (cf. Skt. bhanati "speaks;" L. fari "to say;" Arm. ban, bay "word, term;" O.C.S. bajati "to talk, tell;" O.E. boian "to boast," ben "prayer, request;" Gk. pheme "talk,"

If you or I went around our region raising the dead, and healing the sick, we would be on the six O'clock news the very first day. But that isn't the reason I highlighted the word. Jesus didn't come for that; he came to "seek and to save that which was lost".and He went to the cross "for the Joy set before Him". he wants to fellowship with us; if that were'nt the case, He would not live IN our hearts. His "pleasure" is to "give us the kingdom" and that "kingdom" is "peace and joy in the Holy Ghost". Edited by heartstrings
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Word Origin & History

fame

late 13c., "celebrity,renown," from O.Fr. fame, from L. fama "talk, rumor, report,reputation," from PIE base *bha- "to speak, tell, say" (cf. Skt. bhanati "speaks;" L. fari "to say;" Arm. ban, bay "word, term;" O.C.S. bajati "to talk, tell;" O.E. boian "to boast," ben "prayer, request;" Gk. pheme "talk,"

If you or I went around our region raising the dead, and healing the sick, we would be on the six O'clock news the very first day. But that isn't the reason I highlighted the word. Jesus didn't come for that; he came to "seek and to save that which was lost".and He went to the cross "for the Joy set before Him". he wants to fellowship with us; if that were'nt the case, He would not live IN our hearts. His "pleasure" is to "give us the kingdom" and that "kingdom" is "peace and joy in the Holy Ghost".


And your point is? Is reknown something other than make known? Are you saying I am at fault in something I said? What is the point of taking issue with what has been said on this thread thus far? What exactly are taking issue with? Did someone say that God is not interested in having communion with His creation? Was it suggested that the Lord is one dimensional and can only have one purpose above all others? What is the real problem with God desiring worship? What is it that is bothering you about the scriptural fact that the Lord desires the fame of His glory be declared amongst the nations?

God bless,
Calvary
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God's need to be worshiped? This is a question I have been pondering for some time now and would appreciate some outside input (with scripture). Why must we worship God? Does He "need" it? Whose benefit is it for, His or ours? We are commanded to worship Him, but why?


No, God does not "need" to be worshiped, but he desires it. It is evident that that an eternal God who is from everlasting to everlasting cannot "need" anyone or anything else outside of himself. As for "whose benefit" worshiping God is for, it is beneficial both to God and to man and produces joy on both ends. As to why we are commanded to worship him it comes down to the fact that he is the only one worthy of worship. Also as we worship God in spirit and in truth in many ways we become more like him and that also produces joy on both ends. After all what did God say when he created man? He created man to be in his image and in his likeness right? Also what does the Holy Spirit try to do in the lives of believers after they turn to Christ? Conform them into Christs image right? I think that it is pretty safe to say that that is Gods goal for man.

From this point on there frequently comes a major basic belief split depending if one has calvinist leanings or is apposed to that teaching.

A Calvinist might say that God did this just because he felt like it, which in a sense is true, but Calvinists ultimately tend to feel that God does not really care about his creation he simply cares about himself. A Calvinist's logic is basically when you boil it all down that God's purposes, plans, and actions are frequently what we would call selfish, evil, and so forth if anyone else did them, but because God is God and the creator he can do those kind of things and they are actually good just because he has the right to do them.

Now, someone like myself who strongly apposes that doctrine does not tend to believe that God has one basic set of rules he lives by and a totally different set of rules for everyone else. Obviously there are a handful of things that it is only right for God to do(such as receive worship) but those things tend to be because God is completely perfect, Holy, and worthy while we are not. By and large I believe the rules God gives us are who he is himself. They are his character. I do not believe God is REALLY the sort of being that would be considered overall to be selfish, twisted, and downright evil if he was anyone but God and that it is ok for him to do that and be that way simply because he is God. NO. That is a very wrong perspective of who God is, and it is why I feel Calvinism is either solid blasphemy or coming very close to it. It isn't about what God has a "right" to do, it is about who he IS. Who he IS determines what he does and who he IS is revealed in scripture. I believe God does not want us to be selfish because he is not selfish, I believe God wants us to speak the truth because he is truth, I believe he wants us to be kind because he is kind. He desires to conform us into his image and make us like him. God is light and in him is no darkness at all. There is a reason why the law written in a mans heart tells him that God as pictured by Calvinism would be evil and not worth serving, creator or not. Now of course God's ways are higher than man's ways and we may not always understand everything he does, but we can trust him because we know his character and we know he is good, and does not merely regard mankind as a plaything to be raised up or smashed at whim just because he "can".

I know this wasn't about Calvinism per se but it was a question about who God is and why he does what he does and that question is right at the root of Calvinism vs. the biblical view of God.
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Calvary,
Because a self serving god is the god of the "reformed" calvinistic agenda. It'sthe same thing they push. "God seeking His own glory" may appear to be innocent, appears to be right, may sound good but it's part of a false gospel of a false Christ with a false glory, and those who propagate it may seem right as well. but they are false teachers. 2 corinthians 11: 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Romans 1: 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. ''Another Jesus" is worse than idolatry. The next step. after they convince you that "God is only interested in glory" is that his predetermining of some folks to go to Hell for the glory of it is righteous and good but our finite minds are incapable of comprehending that. Liars! I suppose the aztec priests taught their devotees that Huizilopchitli was righteous and good right before they ripped their hearts out, huh? The Bible says that man KNOWS what's good and what's evil.

Edited by heartstrings
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Has anyone stopped to think it might be as simple as salvation?

IE:

Believe = saved
Worship = humility

God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud (I know - He's been "resisting" me my whole life! :bang: ) To worship Him in any form is to humble ourselves and through consistent and heartfelt worship we die to our sinful nature and give more of ourselves wholly over to Him.

I was curious to see the comments that would come about and it proves a theory I have - we try to hard to complicate God's Word and forget this:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

I think we give ourselves too much credit for our "understanding" sound doctrine and forget that Jesus said:

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Children trust implicitly, explicitly and "worship" those they love - do we?

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Calvary,
Because a self serving god is the god of the "reformed" calvinistic agenda. It'sthe same thing they push. "God seeking His own glory" may appear to be innocent, appears to be right, may sound good but it's part of a false gospel of a false Christ with a false glory, and those who propagate it may seem right as well. but they are false teachers. 2 corinthians 11: 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Romans 1: 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. ''Another Jesus" is worse than idolatry. The next step. after they convince you that "God is only interested in glory" is that his predetermining of some folks to go to Hell for the glory of it is righteous and good but our finite minds are incapable of comprehending that. Liars! I suppose the aztec priests taught their devotees that Huizilopchitli was righteous and good right before they ripped their hearts out, huh? The Bible says that man KNOWS what's good and what's evil.


I don't know why you would take my post and then make it a rant against Calvinism. I never inidcated anything about the tenants of John Calvin. I posted over 20 verses however that clearly state that God is in fact concerned about His glory. I never offered any singular purpose as to why, that is your conjecture and caviling.
I am convinced that God is passionate about His glory. I am convinced of that because that is what the Bible tells me, not what some "they" convinced me of.

To me your statements appear as if God is as one dimensional as you are. There are a myriad of things the Lord care about. His glory being one of them. My joy? Sure. But I am not convinced that that is His principle purpose. I am at a loss over your argument. No one even suggested that God doesn't care for our joy, our lives, our fellowship... etc. You made it a straw man and then argued against your own construct. Wow. :icon_confused:

God bless.
calvary
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
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      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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