Members JerryNumbers Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 You wouldn't hear Barnes, Matthew Henry, or me on the second point. So, I'll let you dig into that further, if it interests you. I've already given my thoughts on the OP. I'll add the following to my OP comment... There may be many around who think they are hearing the spirit when a Christian has the clear direction of God. Sometimes we have to ignore what others believe is God's will for us and just do what God has so obviously stated to us. Paul was given God's clear direction and didn't need the fears of others to distract him from it. I say the opposing view from your friend is speculation at best and scripture doesn't bear it out. If Paul had not been in God's will going on to Jerusalem and following God's direction he would have trouble saying... 2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. GRACE, its all GRACE, for Paul & everyone else, thanks to our Father, & His Son giving His life on the cross to heal our stripes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted May 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 You wouldn't hear Barnes, Matthew Henry, or me on the second point. So, I'll let you dig into that further, if it interests you. I've already given my thoughts on the OP. I'll add the following to my OP comment... There may be many around who think they are hearing the spirit when a Christian has the clear direction of God. Sometimes we have to ignore what others believe is God's will for us and just do what God has so obviously stated to us. Paul was given God's clear direction and didn't need the fears of others to distract him from it. I say the opposing view from your friend is speculation at best and scripture doesn't bear it out. If Paul had not been in God's will going on to Jerusalem and following God's direction he would have trouble saying... 2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Apparently I either missed one of your posts or missed something in one of your previous posts, or perhaps even mistook another post for yours, I apologize for that because if that's what has happened I obviously was in too big a hurry. Later today, when I have more time, I will go back over this thread and read your posts thoroughly and respond. Thank you for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastorj Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 1 Tim. It is clear that the H.S. was telling him not to go. It was recorded in Scripture. I believe Paul would have still ended up in a Roman prison had he heeded the H.S. With that said, God already knew he wouldn't heed and we have what we have. Same thing could have been said by many Men of God in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted May 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Paul and John Mark at some point did reconcile as well as Barnabas but, while these brothers were at odds with one another they were sinning. The following might help you see the sin occurring here... Barnes' Notes on the New Testament Acts CHAPTER 15Verse 39. And the contention was so sharp. The word used here-- ~paroxusmov~--is that from which our word paroxysm is derived. It may denote any excitement of mind, and is used in a good sense in Hebrews 10:24. It here means, evidently, a violent altercation that resulted in their separation for a time, and in their engaging in different spheres of labour. Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Concise)ActsActs 15 Acts 15:39 Perhaps there were faults on both sides, as usual in such contentions. Christ's example alone, is a copy without a blot. Yet we are not to think it strange, if there are differences among wise and good men. It will be so while we are in this imperfect state; we shall never be all of one mind till we come to heaven. But what mischief the remainders of pride and passion which are found even in good men, do in the world, and do in the church! Many who dwelt at Antioch, who had heard but little of the devotedness and piety of Paul and Barnabas, heard of their dispute and separation; and thus it will be with ourselves, if we give way to contention. Believers must be constant in prayer, that they may never be led by the allowance of unholy tempers, to hurt the cause they really desire to serve. I believe Jesus suggestion to the Apostles applied in this obvious sin of unforgiveness. Christ said… Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Even Paul would have to rebuke himself for the unforgiving attitude.... Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. I believe the greatest concern was expressed by Matthew Henry was the possible effect on the fledgling church observing this grave altercation. Our sins don’t always and only effect us but can spread to consume others nearby. The view “As it worked out, two sets of missionaries went forth rather than one.” seems to parallel the “ends justifies the means” mindset? I read over this twice and consulted the verses in Scripture again, including those immediately prior to and after these. The Barnes note doesn't seem helpful as what he puts forth seems more a matter of his guess as to what the Greek word used may have been meaning in this verse. That leaves us with what we have in the KJB to go on. Henry's commentary on the event seems to delve into the world of speculation as well. Scripture doesn't indicate whether the contention was handled in public or private yet Henry suggests that while many at Antioch didn't know much about these men, for some reason they all learned of the contention and this caused problems. Scripture says none of this. For all we know, the contention was kept mostly between the two men and perhaps few if anyone knew of it outside the local church. On this point, we just don't know. We also don't know the attitude of either Paul or Barnabus as they disputed. We don't know if pride came into the mix or not. We do know Paul had good reason to not want John Mark along at that time but we don't know what reason Barnabus had for so strongly demanding John Mark go. There is also know way to know about their tempers during the contention. Did one or more have an "unholy temper"? Perhaps, but we dont' know for certain. The same applies to the idea of forgiveness. There is no mention in the Scripture of Paul or Barnabus being unforgiving yet Henry assumes such. One thing not mentioned is whether or not either Paul or Barnabus took the matter before the Lord before deciding upon going their separate ways. Scripture doesn't tell us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I read over this twice and consulted the verses in Scripture again, including those immediately prior to and after these. The Barnes note doesn't seem helpful as what he puts forth seems more a matter of his guess as to what the Greek word used may have been meaning in this verse. That leaves us with what we have in the KJB to go on.I'll take Barnes over pure guess work, he explains how sharp the "sharp contention" was but ignore it if you like. Since it is of the KJB and we can understand what "sharp contention" means; so much so, "that they departed asunder one from the other" there is little doubt about the seriousness of the rift. Henry's commentary on the event seems to delve into the world of speculation as well. Scripture doesn't indicate whether the contention was handled in public or private yet Henry suggests that while many at Antioch didn't know much about these men, for some reason they all learned of the contention and this caused problems. Scripture says none of this. For all we know, the contention was kept mostly between the two men and perhaps few if anyone knew of it outside the local church. On this point, we just don't know.The church at Antioch was the sending church. The people listened for every bit of news concerning their missionaries they could get. The entire church knew. Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.Henry didn't base his comments on superficial speculation. We also don't know the attitude of either Paul or Barnabus as they disputed. We don't know if pride came into the mix or not. We do know Paul had good reason to not want John Mark along at that time but we don't know what reason Barnabus had for so strongly demanding John Mark go.One day they are preaching all over town together...Acts 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.Soon after the above we have...Acts 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;Don't forget there were preaching to unbelievers together at Antioch; and what do unbelievers do? They watch every move we make as Christians. There is also know way to know about their tempers during the contention. Did one or more have an "unholy temper"? Perhaps, but we dont' know for certain. The same applies to the idea of forgiveness. There is no mention in the Scripture of Paul or Barnabus being unforgiving yet Henry assumes such.They had "ought" between brothers...sin. What part of "sharp contention" and "depart asunder one from another" don't you get? One thing not mentioned is whether or not either Paul or Barnabus took the matter before the Lord before deciding upon going their separate ways. Scripture doesn't tell us.No, it just says they went separate ways with sharp contention toward one another and departed asunder as a result.I don't know why you're spinning this the way you are. A deep study of the Bible with helps which have been accepted for generations by IFB are straight forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2Tim215 Posted May 10, 2012 Members Share Posted May 10, 2012 If the question is did Paul ever sin in his life after seeing the Risen Christ, then yes, he did. Take for example 2 Cor 12. Paul speaks of the thorn in the flesh. I was always taught that this was a physical ailment or weakness he had to deal with, but on deeper study have to wonder if this common teaching is correct. When we speak of grace we usually know it concerns salvation and that salvation is us being freed from sin in Christ. So grace most often coincides with sin in our lives. Paul in the opening of the chapter speaks of glorifying oneself and that "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." He IMHO was struggling with the sin of pride and self glorification here over his fellow believers because of his special dispensation and position as a servant to Christ. Pride is not always a physical sin of action but more often a mental and one of the heart, so did he physically sin here? Possibly, maybe not but I think he did in his heart and mind and was reminded that God's grace is sufficient ALWAYS and greater than any sin we might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted May 10, 2012 Members Share Posted May 10, 2012 Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. Was not Paul called, a chosen vessel, chosen by God, to preach the Gospel to the gentiles, not the Jews? Maybe he though he could do better than Peter, wasn't Peter chosen to preach to the Jews by God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted May 11, 2012 Members Share Posted May 11, 2012 What action should we take when we READ warning prophecy? We, today, will not HEAR prophecy apart from Scripture.10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. Paul heard that prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, & acknowledged it. He treated it as information. His companions treated it as a "don't go on" prophecy, but finally ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. No, Paul was not sinning by ignoring Agabus' prphetic warning; he was encouraged, knowing that what they feared was in God's hands. God knew what awaited Paul, & would use the situation for Paul to preach directly to the Jewish leaders, the Roman authorities, & to the Emperor & his household, together with the believers in Rome. Paul comments to Timothy on his situation:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; No, he was not troubled by a supposed sin of rejecting God's warning through Agabus. "If only I had turned back...."11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul knew he was in the Lord's will, & was able to stand firm. Where were the doubters?16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. And to the Philippians:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. No, no regrets, not a sin. He knew his God. Other prophecies have been used by the Lord's people to flee according to God's warning. The Jerusalem Christians headed Jesus' Olivet prophecy, & fled the city before the destruction. Also David, as cited in another thread:10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah ..... The argument in the other thread was that God's will was overruled by David leaving the city. Nonsense - it was a warning prophecy for David to heed - & escape the evil hand of Saul. David was anointed as the next king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted May 11, 2012 Members Share Posted May 11, 2012 What action should we take when we READ warning prophecy? We, today, will not HEAR prophecy apart from Scripture.10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. Paul heard that prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, & acknowledged it. He treated it as information. His companions treated it as a "don't go on" prophecy, but finally ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. No, Paul was not sinning by ignoring Agabus' prphetic warning; he was encouraged, knowing that what they feared was in God's hands. God knew what awaited Paul, & would use the situation for Paul to preach directly to the Jewish leaders, the Roman authorities, & to the Emperor & his household, together with the believers in Rome. Paul comments to Timothy on his situation:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; No, he was not troubled by a supposed sin of rejecting God's warning through Agabus. "If only I had turned back...."11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul knew he was in the Lord's will, & was able to stand firm. Where were the doubters?16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. And to the Philippians:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. No, no regrets, not a sin. He knew his God. Other prophecies have been used by the Lord's people to flee according to God's warning. The Jerusalem Christians headed Jesus' Olivet prophecy, & fled the city before the destruction. Also David, as cited in another thread:10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah ..... The argument in the other thread was that God's will was overruled by David leaving the city. Nonsense - it was a warning prophecy for David to heed - & escape the evil hand of Saul. David was anointed as the next king. A warning carries a conditional phrase, like IF... you do this or IF you do that THEN... A perfect Bible example is that of Cain and God's WARNING to him in Genesis 4. Sounds as if you still smart over the simple example of a man overriding God's decree by simply exercising his free will. You and I do that on a daily basis. Believe it. There is no will of God that forces a man to do anything, much less recieve the pardon of sins through Jesus Christ. Typical calvinist hack. God bless, calvary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted May 11, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 11, 2012 David didn't override anything, he asked God a question so he would know what course of action to take. God gave David the answer and acted accordingly. I don't see how that has anything to do with the situation with Paul. In the case of Paul, it seems Paul was well aware of what was waiting for him in Jerusalem and the Holy Ghost confirmed this along his journey there. The question would seem to be more a matter of whether or not those insights from the Holy ghost to others was meant as a warning against going or if they were simply confirmations of what was coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2Tim215 Posted May 11, 2012 Members Share Posted May 11, 2012 What everyone forgets here is Paul is only doing what he preached. That is: Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. How could he do any less when his Savior did the same thing: Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Both knew what lay ahead and both had a CHOICE and both decided on there own to do God's will. We should not look at this a warning not to go but rather as a revelation of what was to be with the decision left in Paul's hands. I think Paul knew the will of God in this and his companions acted out of fear and doubt and lack of faith. Many of us do the same and rant at a "cruel" God that leads his people into suffering and death and don't trust that He knows whats best. Maybe we should all learn to be content as Paul teaches and trust as he did. To sacrifice as Christ did and KNOW that God knows best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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