When was Jesus born?

[trell]

With the reference to Wyoming, I really thought you meant Cowboy Up, and just were not aware of the term used out here. My apologies.

[282Mikado]

With the reference to Wyoming, I really thought you meant Cowboy Up, and just were not aware of the term used out here. My apologies.

No worries. Coming from the east they are both western terms to me. We don't have many ponies or cowboys in these parts! :)

[Pastorj]

Let's sum it up and get to the nuts and bolts please.

I agree that Jesus was born in 3BC based on historical evidence compared to the Biblical account.

[trell]

PastorJ:
How can I honestly do that, and do God's Word justice? The groundwork for 'his star' must be understood. Most people think it was this star (usually depicted as a glowing cross shape) that shined a ray of light on baby Jesus. He was not a baby when the wise men arrived, and he lived in a house by that time also. Additionally, I know that in this website it is better to be detailed and thorough to avoid the clamour of making blanket, unsubstantiated (supposed to be, anyway) statements.

Jacob, in Gen 49:9-10, by inspiration, declares Judah is symbolized by the lion (Leo in the zodiac). Jacob said "the scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet". The dominant, brightest star in Leo is Regulus The Arabic word regel means 'foot', and answers identically with Hebrew's regel and the Aramaic regla. Regulus is known, and was known in all ancient civilizations as the king star.

This schematic, blueprint, of the coming Christ, was known from ancient times. Man was without excuse. He could read God's plan of redemption in the heavens.

Who were the wise men, magi?
Matt 2:1 tells us quite a bit. The wise men (magoi in Greek; mgushe in Aramaic) refers to a religous group called Magi or Magians in the east, especially in Persia. Historical documents put these people in Persia and Media before Zoroaster, who lived about 600 BC. (I do not use BCE.) Originally into a style of nature worship, under Zoroaster these Magi became the priests of of Zoroastrianism. When Zoroaster died, some returned to nature worship, but some remained true to what Zoroaster taught.
(The nature worshipping western Magi were the ones who developed sun worship, astrology, sorcery, magic, etc., and flooded the Roman empire about 100 years after the birth of Christ).
The eastern Magi stayed true to Zoroaster, believing in one supreme God who only did good, a spiritual adversary who promoted evil, a coming redeemer to save man, forbidding and punishing idol worship, angels and devils (with the ultimate triumph of good over evil via the redeemer). They had a very strict code of moral behavior and ethics. These are the Magi, wise men, who came 'from the east'. Not from the western magi branch. Even to this day, their knowledge of religion and astronomy is world renowned.
When Daniel was written, 5:11 shows that Daniel was the master of the Magi. When the Persians took over Babylon (5:31), Daniel retained his high standing (6:3). These Magi, instructed by Daniel (and perhaps others) learned the truth of what the stars signified. The knowledge, passed down from Jacob and his progeny, found fertile ground in the minds and hearts of a people far from Judea. Even Suetonius, the Roman historian, makes mention of the world being given to someone who should go forth from Judaea.

Next we will begin to look at 'his star', the focal point that brought wise men hundreds of miles to pay homage to a king they knew was coming for 500 plus years, the redeemer of mankind, the king of the Judeans!

[JerryNumbers]

:hijacked:




Back in 1992, the wife & I took off on a motorcycle trip, leaving Arkansas, turning back towards Arkansas in a town by the name of Eudora. MT.

I recall seeing & honest & goodness 100 % true cowboy in a place we stopped to eat dinner in Wyoming. Linda had her back to the front door, & I saw him 1st, I asked her, "Do you want to see a real 100% true cowboy?" She replied, "Yes." I said, "Just look to your right right now, & you will see him," & she did!

The 3 other men he that was with him, looked somewhat like cowboys, yet not 100 % cowboy like him, they looked more like 'Drug Store,' cowboys, that is if you know what a 'Drug Store' cowboy is all about.


:11backtotopic:

[trell]

I'll stay off topic for a post, and share a story.

We lived in Node, Wyoming. Node had a population, after my wife and I moved there, of 4. Node is in Niobrara County. This county, population around 2800, is the least populated county in Wyoming. Wyoming , of course, is the least populated state of all 50 states.
The county seat is Lusk, about 1400 people, and that includes the inmates in the state's only women's prison. Lusk has a A&W style drive up and park, eat in your car food joint.
Once we were there, having an ice cream I think, and this cowboy comes in off the range. He rambles up on his horse, (and both he and his horse are covered with trail dust), dismounts, checks his horse over, gets some dust off it (that horse was not beige, it was black!), loosens the cinch, ties him up nearby where there was a little grass, and wanders towards the order window.
As he walks, he is knocking the dirt off him, off his black hat and chaps, his huge mustache, and gigantic, well-used bandana. He got his food ordered, sat down (they have some picnic tables in the shade) and ate, never saying a word. About done, he rolled himself a smoke, lit it, drank his drink, put the smoke out, took the tobacco left in the butt and put it back in the pouch.
He slowly got up, meandered over to his horse, gave it a nibble of something, cinch up, mounted, and continued on his way. Quite a sight to see. Never heard his voice. Don't know if he worked for an outfit or not, didn't recognize the brand. But off he slowly road, on the same U.S. highway. Then he started whistling.

[trell]

Back to topic:

This is one area where explanatory words and definitions will be used. I am in no way, shape, or form impuning the accuracy of the scriptures. However, at times explanations are needed, especially where cultures and sciences are concerned.

The wise men and 'his star'.

God records what is commonly referred to as the star of Bethlehem, 'his star'. The wise men's term is 'his star', not the star of anything or anyone else. All such terms, except for 'his star', are without scriptural foundation. This is how the wise men knew the king of the Judeans was born in Judaea. (The word 'Jew' and it's various derivatives were not in any English Bible until the 1700's. I use the word 'Judean' for a few reasons. Firstly, it is accurate. Second, in our venacular Jew is usually used of any person of Jacob's (Israel's) lineage, whereas the scripture is very clear that the Christ would come to sit on David's throne from the tribe of Judah. Thirdly, to use the word Judean keeps it straight as to why the magi came to the area of the tribe of Judah looking for the Prince Of Peace, rather than to the area occupied by any other tribe of Israel.)

Matt 2:1-2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews (Judeans)? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

The definition of the word 'when' in verse 1 should be, as will be seen as we progress, be Webster's 1833 definition number 4, 'after'. The wise men, the magi, were from the east, the eastern Magi, the ones who stayed faithful to what they had been taught. They went to Jerusalem looking for the new king in the place where one would expect to find him. The fact that they had to ask where should tell us that there was not a shining light on Jesus.

They said "we have seen his star in the east". Again, since they were coming 'from the east', if this was just seeing his star 'in the east', they would have travelled farther east, not south and west. This should have arrested our attention.
The term 'in the east' is an astronomical term, and refers to the rising of a star in the eastern sky shortly before sunrise. (There is also some additional astronomical and Greek word-forms involved here, but they are generally not required for understanding). Literally it means 'in the rising'. While in their home country (we have seen is past tense), the Magi saw a star, (remember, stars refers to all heavenly bodies which includes planets, excepting the sun and moon), rising shortly before dawn in the eastern sky. This was not just an average, mere, or any star. Just as this "King of the Judeans" was not an average, mere, or any man, neither was "his star". This star had to convey, communicate, that the King of the Judeans was born.

In Matthew 2:9, 'his star' is again referred to. "When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was."
Here, his star is called the star, it's identification with him being set in verse 2. This is the second, distinct, recorded appearance in God's Word of the same star. Again here, the words 'in the east' mean 'in the rising'.. We will examine the remainder of this verse, and it's astronomical terms a little later, but now let us date 'his star'.

[trell]

Ready to go forward?

[JerryNumbers]

I'll stay off topic for a post, and share a story.

We lived in Node, Wyoming. Node had a population, after my wife and I moved there, of 4. Node is in Niobrara County. This county, population around 2800, is the least populated county in Wyoming. Wyoming , of course, is the least populated state of all 50 states.
The county seat is Lusk, about 1400 people, and that includes the inmates in the state's only women's prison. Lusk has a A&W style drive up and park, eat in your car food joint.
Once we were there, having an ice cream I think, and this cowboy comes in off the range. He rambles up on his horse, (and both he and his horse are covered with trail dust), dismounts, checks his horse over, gets some dust off it (that horse was not beige, it was black!), loosens the cinch, ties him up nearby where there was a little grass, and wanders towards the order window.
As he walks, he is knocking the dirt off him, off his black hat and chaps, his huge mustache, and gigantic, well-used bandana. He got his food ordered, sat down (they have some picnic tables in the shade) and ate, never saying a word. About done, he rolled himself a smoke, lit it, drank his drink, put the smoke out, took the tobacco left in the butt and put it back in the pouch.
He slowly got up, meandered over to his horse, gave it a nibble of something, cinch up, mounted, and continued on his way. Quite a sight to see. Never heard his voice. Don't know if he worked for an outfit or not, didn't recognize the brand. But off he slowly road, on the same U.S. highway. Then he started whistling.

Did he whistle 'Dixie?'

:frog:

[282Mikado]

Second, in our venacular Jew is usually used of any person of Jacob's (Israel's) lineage, whereas the scripture is very clear that the Christ would come to sit on David's throne from the tribe of Judah. Thirdly, to use the word Judean keeps it straight as to why the magi came to the area of the tribe of Judah looking for the Prince Of Peace, rather than to the area occupied by any other tribe of Israel.)

Matt 2:1-2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews (Judeans)? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

I can see your logic here, but Christ is the King of ALL Israel, hence King of the "Jews" not just Judea. To translate otherwise would necessitate doing that eveywhere and I don't think that is the context in places such as Matthew 15, Luke 23, or John 19.

The definition of the word 'when' in verse 1 should be, as will be seen as we progress, be Webster's 1833 definition number 4, 'after'. The wise men, the magi, were from the east, the eastern Magi, the ones who stayed faithful to what they had been taught. They went to Jerusalem looking for the new king in the place where one would expect to find him. The fact that they had to ask where should tell us that there was not a shining light on Jesus.

I don't see this as an issue really. The use of the word when can easily be taken as when he was born, the wise men started making their way to Jerusalem. It doesn't have to mean that they were their at that time. Semantics.

So far I'm liking the study...Press On!

[trell]

I agree with you 282, the Christ being the King of all Israel, but because He comes from the tribe of Judah, represented by Leo the lion as foretold in Genesis is the reason I included this. I do not see the need to change it anywhere, as long as the truth of it is understood.

Also agree with your evaluation of the 'when' thing.

My explanation of these, and future items, is so people do not think I am trying to alter God's Word, or twist its' meaning. In my own study I would never do that, but for me to document the logic and proper tools of Biblical research is important for others, as well as keeping me honest as a workman of the word.

So far I'm liking the study...Press On!

[Invicta]

The word Jew, came from the name Judea, and those who returned under Cyrus were first called by that name.

[trell]

Invicta:
Thanks. What is your source that this word was in use at that time? I know the word is used in the Bible, but that is a translation contraction of Judean in the texts, as far as I can find. I will check it out and add it to my papers if applicable.

[Invicta]

The jewish historian Josephus said that they were known as Jews after the return.

[JerryNumbers]

Israelite = Hebrew = Jew