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When was Jesus born?


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You are correct...I used the word exalted. I was paraphrasing a verse not directly in front of me while trying to get my thoughts down in short order. I was not trying to make God's word "more living and real in my understanding" as that is not really possible or necessary in my mind. I do not know Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic and do not purport to be any type of translator. I have also never opened the ESV to my recollection. To pass my paraphase off as in keeping with the honest work the translators of the KJV is like comparing apples to a side of beef.

In my humble opinion, if God promises to keep and preserve His word from generation to generation (and He does):

Ps 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

I have to believe it would be kept and preserved available for our use, else why else bother. If a god only kept and preserved his word "in the originals" then I would have to say that god is not a god capable of much, because we do not even have any of the originals kept or preserved. If it is only kept with God, then it really does not do us much good because we do not have access to it. All this does not seem likely from a God that gives so much power and emphasis to His word.

I believe that God has kept His inspired word pure and completely intact in the KJV. I believe He is capable of keeping His word, in every sense. I have done some study on the translation of the KJV and the men behind it and believe it was a well designed process done by men far above their peers then and now. I also believe that God was behind the whole translation.

I also believe the "per"versions that have come out of Alexandria and via anything that has Westcott and Hort in its lineage are exactly that...perversions. Having said that, I have more respect for a person that holds firm to the NIV as the authoritative word of God than for someone that hopscotches from version to version to find that one translation of a verse that suits his/her purpose best.

I have heard and read all the arguments before of those that believe we don't have the originals and copies "even 'honest' ones" have introduced errors so that there really is no truly correct Bible out there. What I end up discovering is that these claims are initially made by people who are not comfortable with what God said and/or did, and desire to put their own spin on it. For instance, Origen did not believe in the deity of Christ, which is clear in his pervesion of the scriptures. This is then perpetuated by those that desire to follow them down that path of pervesion. I have asked naysayers to pinpoint specific verses that are in error and explain how they know, but they can't. Why? Because they don't have the 'originals' either and so it is all subjective.

I believe the KJV is God's inspired word...period.

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First, and foremost, I believe that people can come to Christ without reading a word from any Bible.

Romans 10:17 KJB
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The concept of everyone knowing how to read is a fairly new one within the history of mankind, if I understand correctly. And, even today, there are many who can't read the Bible -- any version -- in their native language.

Next, I'm just a layman, fairly recently returning to fellowship with the body of Christ. Upon returning, I discovered the King James ONLY controversy. As a result for the last 18 months or so, I've spent a considerable amount of time in study of this subject. Far ranging topics from origins of written languages to copyright/financial reasons for revising revisions of previous versions. All of this with a continual prayer for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I also beleive God directed (inspired) the original recorders of His word, regardless of writing method, whether chisel and hammer or a stylus in soft clay or a reed quill on animal skin. I also believe He kept His promise to preserve His word for all generations.

Moving on, I am NOT a King James ONLY as it's often defined today. There are too many extreme positions on this that push people away from God rather than bringing them closer to Him. Satan is, in my humble opinion, using this to try drive a stake into the body of Christ. If you and I, as born again true beleivers that Jesus died on the cross for us, spend hours of endless heated arguement about "the Greek says", "oldest manuscript is best", etc. & etc., what does that "tell" those watching us about our faith?

No, a born again person will not go to hell for studying an NIV. Yes, a person can be saved, when they accept Christ while reading any document God uses to touch their hearts. Including those, again in my humble opinion, are modern day per-versions of His word. Document examples: Billboards, Christmas cards, gospel music, newspaper article in the "religion" section, and so much more.

All that said, whew..... I also believe that when a person comes to Christ, the best resource to use to:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

is the King James Bible using a 1700's edition of the 1611 first publication.

Put the KJB first and foremost.

Why?

Hours and hours have been spent over the last 18 months reading about "outdated language", "errors in the KJB", "original manuscripts", Hort and Westcott, King James and alleged lifestyle, Darwin & evolution, and....

comparing translators & methods for the KJB vs modern day editors, translators, manuscripts, publishing houses.

With help from the Holy Spirit, and committment to learn the truth, it becomes easier and easier to *see* the flaws in the "logic" of those attacking the KJB. I'm not saying I'm an expert or everything I say is without error. Please don't misunderstand, as I'll never learn enough in my remaining lifetime to come anywhere close to that. It's only with the Lord's blessing, that I've come far enough to voice somewhat of a position statement. One that's continually being refined as clay on His potter's wheel.

* So far, every statement that the KJB is in error has a valid rebuttal. From scriptures taken out of context to outright lying by those who know better. And all the shades of grey that lie between by those who know how to

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:1

* Much of the "originals" and "oldest manuscripts" fall into this catagory, too. Manipulation, to serve various agenda, comes to light, when study pulls back the curtain on how those terms are being tossed about as truth.

There's so much more to write, the words want to rush out. But, it's time for me go get off my soapbox. So, in closing, back to the OP and the question that follows. Yes, I'd like to learn more about Christ's actual birth date. That's from a historical standpoint. From a faith standpoint, it doesn't matter, since I know He gave His life, on the cross, for me. And, that one glorious day He'll teach me everything I'm now yearning (Proverbs 2:3-6) to learn, as I sit as His feet.

---------------
Proverbs 2:3-6 KJB
3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

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Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Of course God is right, yet I suspect that most of preaches that stated God can do anything, did not mean that they believed God can lie. And that if they though someone would be thinking that they mean that God can't lie, they would have said, "God can do everything but lie."

I have made statements about God, & followed up with the phrase, God can do anything," yet I did not mean God can or will lie."

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

And I feel100% sure, that the above verse, with it saying all thing are possible with God, does not mean its possible for God to lie. yet, some might take it that way, but of course if it meant that lying was possible with God, them this verse Mark 10:27 contradicts Titus 1:2, & we know God does not contradict Himself while knowing God will not lie.

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Oldtimer
You bring up the most important point at the end of your post. Jesus lived, died, and God raised him from the dead! We can now be saved, have eternal life, and live forever within the presence of God and Jesus.
I find the KJV controversy to be something which engenders much division. If the Bible said something along the lines of using a certain version or translation, I would happily accept it. However, as I understand the KJV Only argument, I see no scriptural proof for it. Just as some will not even consider a different viewpoint on the fact of where the word Easter comes from, and what goes with it, so some get quite angry and verbally violent if a version of the Bible is used which they don't agree with.
Some people will even do as you stated, and version-shop to find a verse to support what they already believe. This is totally illogical.

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Oldtimer
You bring up the most important point at the end of your post. Jesus lived, died, and God raised him from the dead! We can now be saved, have eternal life, and live forever within the presence of God and Jesus.
I find the KJV controversy to be something which engenders much division. If the Bible said something along the lines of using a certain version or translation, I would happily accept it. However, as I understand the KJV Only argument, I see no scriptural proof for it. Just as some will not even consider a different viewpoint on the fact of where the word Easter comes from, and what goes with it, so some get quite angry and verbally violent if a version of the Bible is used which they don't agree with.
Some people will even do as you stated, and version-shop to find a verse to support what they already believe. This is totally illogical.




I use only the KJ, & I encourage everyone in our church to use the KJ. I go ahead & tell them, if you use a different version than I, at some point that will cause confusion, for you & perhaps for others, & we all know that confusion does not come from God.

Plus, it seems some people just plain ignores that those that keep writing new Bibles have an agenda, & part of that agenda is to create a version that will easily back up their false teachings, which the KJ does not.

As for getting angry with those that use other versions, no, I don't get angry, but I notice those who defends all versions, have a habit of getting angry because I refuse to agree with them.

I once read a book written by a very liberal Baptist pastor, in this book he used more than 13 versions of the Bible, in order to teach what he wanted to teach, if he had used only the KJ Bible, he could not have backed up his teachings so easily.


And something else I notice, those that accept any & ever version, seems to refuse to study this out, so that they can find out the big differences between the old KJ, & those news versions. Here is a place you can do that, that is if you desire to. My post on this matter is just my thoughts, my opinion, I do not want to argue the issue. That issues has been beat to death on here, & it seems to not help no one. Each man has to make up his own mind, but I hope they do so by truly studying it out, & not blindly accepting the MV's, as many seem happy to do.
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Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Of course God is right, yet I suspect that most of preaches that stated God can do anything, did not mean that they believed God can lie. And that if they though someone would be thinking that they mean that God can't lie, they would have said, "God can do everything but lie."

I have made statements about God, & followed up with the phrase, God can do anything," yet I did not mean God can or will lie."

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

And I feel100% sure, that the above verse, with it saying all thing are possible with God, does not mean its possible for God to lie. yet, some might take it that way, but of course if it meant that lying was possible with God, them this verse Mark 10:27 contradicts Titus 1:2, & we know God does not contradict Himself while knowing God will not lie.

That's true Jerry. I've known some scoffers who like to use the "God can do anything" idea as a means to excuse not turning to God. One would walk around constantly saying that if God can do anything then he want's to see God make a rock so big He can't move it.

It's no use trying to explain to them that God is perfect and not the author of confusion, God doesn't perform the absurd.

It's also no use explaining that God already declares in His Word He cannot sin which clarifies that God can do all things which is just, right and perfect.

It's generally clear what is meant by "God can do anything", it's simply those who wish to mock God and attempt to discredit Him will use anything, regardless of how illogical or unbiblical, in their attempts to appear smarter than and above Christians and their God.
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Oldtimer
You bring up the most important point at the end of your post. Jesus lived, died, and God raised him from the dead! We can now be saved, have eternal life, and live forever within the presence of God and Jesus.
I find the KJV controversy to be something which engenders much division. If the Bible said something along the lines of using a certain version or translation, I would happily accept it. However, as I understand the KJV Only argument, I see no scriptural proof for it. Just as some will not even consider a different viewpoint on the fact of where the word Easter comes from, and what goes with it, so some get quite angry and verbally violent if a version of the Bible is used which they don't agree with.
Some people will even do as you stated, and version-shop to find a verse to support what they already believe. This is totally illogical.

God has clearly stated He would preserve His Word. The fact that not all "versions" are the same indicates that not all of the can be right so it's up to us to discover which is right, regardless of the language we speak. Since we speak and read English, our focus is upon English language Bibles.

When one does the research it's clear that a few early Bibles were produced using the ancient text line which has historically been viewed as the preserved line. It wasn't until years later that other text lines, which had been examined many times before and found to be faulty, were suddenly declared to be "more accurate" based upon nothing more than their own declaration.

We already know the devil does all he can to copy God. Should we be surprised if the devil worked to bring about faulty manuscripts and when allowed he used unscrupulous men to lift them up as superior?

The KJB has a proven track record totally unmatched by any other English Bible.

When set forth side-by-side, even young Christians tend to see clearly how watered down the MVs are in comparison to the KJB.

No doubt, there are some who take the KJO positon to extremes, but that's common with all things and no excuse to dismiss the KJB.

It should also be noted that it's not just with English Bibles this issue comes up. In several other languages there are also issues with a soundly accepted Bible being challenged by MVs brought forth from unsound texts by unsound "translators".

Either God has preserved His Word for us or He has not. I choose to believe His Word and accept that He has and for English readers it's in the KJB.

As for myself, I wasn't actively searching for the preserved Word when the Holy Spirit directed me to the KJB. I'm thankful I paid heed to the Spirit as the fruit of the Spirit was immediately evident when I turned to the KJB.
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Jerry,

Though my last post had more in it than what is there now (edited by ??), I made reference to some who defend their version. There was no reference to those who get angry being KJV Only people. The same problem exists with others.

I do wish posts were left as posted. If posts are evil, then cancel them and the poster. If they are not evil, then why edit them?

As concerns the KJV, I well know the advantages, use it all the time, and believe it is the best version overall.

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Jerry,

Though my last post had more in it than what is there now (edited by ??), I made reference to some who defend their version. There was no reference to those who get angry being KJV Only people. The same problem exists with others.

I do wish posts were left as posted. If posts are evil, then cancel them and the poster. If they are not evil, then why edit them?

As concerns the KJV, I well know the advantages, use it all the time, and believe it is the best version overall.


I don't believe anyone has edited your post, but I could be wrong.

Some more things God cannot do, God cannot sin, God cannot contradict Himself. Yet I suppose some will say He can, if noting is impossible with Him. Thinking about that sure makes me feel that I come way to short of His glory, & I sure need to be thankful for the grace, for I seem to do all those thing He doesn't quite easily.
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I don't believe anyone has edited your post, but I could be wrong.

Some more things God cannot do, God cannot sin, God cannot contradict Himself. Yet I suppose some will say He can, if noting is impossible with Him. Thinking about that sure makes me feel that I come way to short of His glory, & I sure need to be thankful for the grace, for I seem to do all those thing He doesn't quite easily.

The longer we are in Christ and striving to live for Him, the more we become aware of just how much we sin and how much easier it is to sin than to be on guard and continually submit to Jesus as Lord of our lives.
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The subject of KJV only has been batted around here ad nauseam with little to no resolution...ever. Let us suffice it to say that all reading this thread are mature enough to accept the use of another version's text as long as it is not taken out of context and lines up with the underlying language as found in Strong's. Hopefully there are others out there that can add their knowledge of grammatical issues that may be of import if that becomes an issue.

Now, can we get back on topic and find out how we can possibly pinpoint the birth of Christ down to an 1/2 hour in 3 B.C.? Let us give this an honest study and perhaps we can all learn something and gain a better understanding of our Lord.

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Now, can we get back on topic and find out how we can possibly pinpoint the birth of Christ down to an 1/2 hour in 3 B.C.? Let us give this an honest study and perhaps we can all learn something and gain a better understanding of our Lord.

I agree, enough with the diversion, let's get back to the topic at hand. I'm interested to read what is put forth and see how it stands.
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I agree, enough with the diversion, let's get back to the topic at hand. I'm interested to read what is put forth and see how it stands.


OK Trell! In the words of Wendy's spokeperson, Clara Peller: "Where's the beef?! :hungry:

...or, as you are from Wyoming maybe it would be better if I said it was time to "pony up" pardner! :makmiday:
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One step at a time...baby steps...no offense to anyone.

By the way, the term is Cowboy Up.

1) Except where absolutely needed, I am not going to type or copy the scriptures. I will give the references. Everyone should look them up themselves.
2) We will use KJV. There may be explanatory notes. I don't desire to get drawn into a debate on this. Holler at me elsewhere.
3) Please ask questions. Statements such as 'I don't believe that' will be ignored. Such statements are unproductive.
4) I have well over a hundred reference works I could cite. If you want specifics, ask and I will give them individually on here.
5) Most important !! This is not being done on here to hurt or cause trouble. The question was asked, I am endeavouring to answer. This is NOT my thread or question.

Let us begin an study of when Jesus, the Christ, was born.

In this study, we will be looking at God's Word, whether written on paper or in the stars, and history.
In looking at the stars, do not confuse astronomy, the science of the heavens and their bodies (which we will be doing), with astrology, the supposed art of telling the future.
God created the heavens, the earth, and set the stars in motion. He specifically gave names to stars. Ps 147:4
For us, so accustomed to reading the written word, it is difficult at times to see how God's revelation could be written in the heavens. God ...at sundry times and in divers manners. Heb 1:1 The stars are one of these divers manners in sundry times. They tell of the redemptive plan, not the when of it. Ps 19:1-6 If one were to study the words in this psalm, they would see the great detail with which God has spoken in the heavens.

Gen 1:14 explains more. We all know days and years. Seasons indicate the four seasons, but also the word seasons also indicates periods of time. Signs is from the Hebrew root avah, which means 'to mark', and is used of marking someone significant to come. God put His revelation in the heavens, even before man was here and the promise of Gen 3:15 was given.

Just as God preserved for us in this day and time His written Word, so also did He preserve the meanings, the names, the order of His Word in the heavens. This is how the people of old, before city lights and printed books, before all the so-called modern conveniences, could read God's Word. Through the millenia and centuries, God preserved the original names of the stars using the Semetic languages. This is what makes up accurate, true, Biblical astronomy. Any use of the stars for any kind of astrology is wrong. See Isaiah 47:12-14

When God put the lights in the heavens, the sun and moon mark for us the days, months, and seasons. So also the stars (all heavenly bodies, what we now call planets and stars, are Biblically classified as stars) mark the signs of God's plan of redemption, Jesus the Christ.

After answering any questions which I can, (and are not jumping ahead too far), we will examine a bit on the constellations (See Gen 49:9-10 and Rev 5:5) and some ancient names of stars (remember, that includes planets) and how the wise men of Matt 2 knew what they knew.

God bless.

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Good start. Looking forward to more.

I did, however, mean "pony up""

transitive verb: to pay (money) especially in settlement of an account

Synonyms: ante up, balance, meet, pay off, pay, recompense, settle

origin unknown
First Known Use: 1824

Edited by 282Mikado
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