Jump to content
Online Baptist Community
  • Newest Sermon Entry

    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Interesting Script from "End of the Harvest"


Recommended Posts

  • Members

In the movie, End of the Harvest, David White's character, Matt, stands before a psychology class and presents the following dialogue (written by Rich Christiano and not Jeffrey Bartell):



A college student named Jeffery Bartell wrote a paper in 1949. He concluded that the time immediately preceding the prophesied return of Jesus Christ had begun.

The scriptures make it clear that no one knows the day or the hour of Christ’s return. But the Bible does say that we can know the times and seasons surrounding His coming. Never before have the conditions been possible for so much of endtime Bible prophecy to be fulfilled as today. You may be thinking, “…so, because disease and immorality are running rampant, and because there are wars and rumors of wars, and that we have had a few more earthquakes, that Jesus is coming back soon? We’ve heard all that before.”

To Bartell, the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Its message is so simple that it could be summed up in just a few verses. Yet at the same time, it’s a book with so much depth, that you could study it a lifetime, and still not understand all its truth. Bartell’s theory about the endtime started when he read a verse in Isaiah chapter 46. It says that God declares the end from the beginning. A similar passage is found in Isaiah chapter 48. This lead Bartell back to the beginning, to the book of Genesis and the creation story. As he studied the first chapter, he began to wonder why God took six days to create the world, and rest on the seventh. Why would he take six days when he could have created the world in one second, in the blink of an eye?

Bartell studied the words “day” and “days” in the Bible. He discovered some interesting passages that related to this. He concluded that perhaps God was indicating to us how much time man would have on the earth.

Bartell makes the point that the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, is full of foreshadowing. An event that actually happened in history, also pictures something coming in the future. An example would be when Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac. That event actually happened, and it was also a picture of what God would do with his son Jesus on the cross, as an offering for the sins of the world. Now, why would God take six days to create the world? Is this a picture of something that we need to know? Bartel thinks it is.

In 2nd Peter 3:8, the context is referring to the second coming of Christ. The Bible says that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day. In Psalms 90 it says that a thousand years in God’s sight are but as yesterday. So, could it be that the six days of creation were to indicate to us, the time man would have on this Earth would be about six thousand years? …The seventh day of rest picturing the thousand year millennial reign, when Christ comes back to set up his Earthly kingdom. The time of righteousness and peace.

Bartell documents in his paper how Bible scholars have calculated from the first man, Adam, to the first coming of Jesus to be about four thousand years. If that’s the case, then we could be living right at the end of what the New Testament calls “the last days”.

Bartell makes a big issue about how God deals with time in the Bible. When God measures time, He does so by sevens. God created the world in seven days, with the seventh day being a day of rest. According to the Old Testament law, the Jews were commanded to rest every seven days. The seventh week after the Passover, they celebrated a big feast of rest. The seventh month was perhaps the most important when they celebrated three of their biggest feasts of rest. Every seventh year was a year of rest for the land. Every 49 years, seven times seven, they celebrated the year of Jubilee, which is a year of rest for the land and liberty for the people.

So it made sense to Bartell that God would set up a seven thousand year period for man to occupy the Earth; with the last thousand years being a time of rest when Jesus comes back to set up His Earthly kingdom, as spoken of in Revelation chapter 20. Bartell was right when he says that when God deals with time, He does so by sevens. There’s no other more predominant system in the word of God. The second coming of Christ is the most important day on God’s calendar. Bartell was convinced that He wants us to know about it, including the timing.

Hosea was a prophet in the Old Testament. In chapter six of that book, Hosea talks about Israel, God’s chosen nation who was always rejecting God. The nation was going to be torn apart, but verse two says: “After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight.” What does this mean? When Jesus came, Israel rejected Him as their messiah, so God scattered the nation of Israel all over the world. For 1900 years there was no nation of Israel, but God says that after two days, or two thousand years, “I will revive thee, and you, Israel, will live in my sight.”

The scattered Israel became a nation again in the year 1948. This is important because God is reviving the nation of Israel and they are about to live in His sight, when Jesus comes back to set up His Earthly kingdom. Have you ever met a Canaanite? How about an Amorite? No. Because these were Israel’s enemies and they have not been preserved. The Jews have been preserved because they are God’s chosen people, and He must fulfill and keep the promises He made to them. But the Jews are still rejecting Christ. For how long? “After two days (or two thousand years) I will revive thee, and in the third day you shall live in my sight.” The second-coming events are about to begin.

Bartell sees the same foreshadowing in Exodus chapter 19:11. God told Israel to clean up and wait for two days. The third day I’m coming down in the sight of all the nation.

In John chapter 11, Lazarus, a Jew, has died. Jesus waits two days before raising him from the dead. Why? Bartell says this pictures how God is about to turn his back on Israel for the next two thousand years (or two days), and start reaching out to the rest of the world through the New Testament church; which He did.

God didn’t just throw that stuff in the Bible to waste space. Maybe Bartell is right, maybe God is trying to tell us something. Bartell points out that in Matthew chapter 17:1 that Jesus takes Peter, James and John up to the mountain, apart from the rest of the group. What, you ask, happens up there? Jesus is transfigured before them, and they are given a preview of His second coming glory. Now, the first words of that line in scripture are “after six days”. Why did God throw this in? Is He just wasting space again, or is God perhaps trying to tell us something that we need to know?

Remember, the time from Adam to Christ is 4 thousand years (or four days). The time of the church period is two thousand years (or two days). So could this mean that after six thousand years (or six days) God would revive Israel and fulfill the promises he made to them? Now, either Bartell is reading too much between the lines, or God is trying to tell us something.

What He is trying to tell us is, the kingdom of God is about to begin; the day of rest (or one thousand years). The resurrected believers, and the believers who are alive when Jesus returns, will reign as kings and priests on Earth (Revelation 5:10).


While this is just a movie script, I find it very compelling.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

That was Jewish teaching. 2,000 years to the law, 2,000 years of the law, 2,000 years of the Messiah.

In John chapter 11, Lazarus, a Jew, has died. Jesus waits two days before raising him from the dead. Why? Bartell says this pictures how God is about to turn his back on Israel for the next two thousand years (or two days), and start reaching out to the rest of the world through the New Testament church; which He did.


Lazarus had been dead four days.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Lazarus had been dead 4 days, yes. But the Word of God specifically states that Jesus waited 2 days. Now, that tells me it took Him 2 days to arrive in Bethany, for Jesus told His Disciples after waiting two days that Lazarus was dead and Mary and Martha said after Jesus arrived that Lazarus had been dead four days.

This means Lazarus must have died the same day the messenger told Jesus that Lazarus was sick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

I remember reading that same idea about 6000 years before the rapture/tribulation/millenium before the year 2000. (The year 2000, of course, being the 'obvious' date for the end of the 6000 years and beginning of the next millenium.) That 'prophecy' frightened me at the time - and ultimately proved wrong.

The problem with ideas like this is that they ignore the fact the the return of Christ is imminent - and has been since He left. If God had left a 'schedule of prophecy' in place that required two millenia to pass before Christ could return again - His return would not have been imminent for the disciples. Or the early church. Or the Waldenses. Or any other Christians throughout history that we could name. Christ's imminent return means that nothing had to be fulfilled and no calendars had to be completed between Pentecost and His Second Coming.

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."
Acts 1:7

Jesus said that it is not for us to know the times or the seasons - where did we Christians get the idea that we can know them? :huh: Edited by salyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

It was not given for the Disciples to know the times nor the seasons. Jesus said "for you". He was speaking to the Disciples at the time.

But later, it was written that we would see certain signs; men lovers of selves, proud, without natural affection, etc..

We certainly can see that we are living in the last days, and if is interesting that those things written in the script do line up with historical and future events in a remarkable way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
"Barnabas" writing about the year 100 had the same idea:

Barnabas 15:1
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten
Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And
ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a
pure heart.

Barnabas 15:2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then
I will bestow My mercy upon them.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.


Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Barnabas 15:6
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands
and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow
the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone
utterly astray.

Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.


I don't think the signs in Mat. 24 (or 2 Tim. 3 where Timothy was told how to live in perilous times.) can be interpreted that way - when do the Israelis - them which be in Judaea - flee into the mountains? And about the wars, earthquakes, etc, Jesus says, "all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

No. Jesus gives a general warning that we should be serving him, always ready for his sudden appearance. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I remember reading that same idea about 6000 years before the rapture/tribulation/millenium before the year 2000. (The year 2000, of course, being the 'obvious' date for the end of the 6000 years and beginning of the next millenium.) That 'prophecy' frightened me at the time - and ultimately proved wrong.

The problem with ideas like this is that they ignore the fact the the return of Christ is imminent - and has been since He left. If God had left a 'schedule of prophecy' in place that required two millenia to pass before Christ could return again - His return would not have been imminent for the disciples. Or the early church. Or the Waldenses. Or any other Christians throughout history that we could name. Christ's imminent return means that nothing had to be fulfilled and no calendars had to be completed between Pentecost and His Second Coming.


Jesus said that it is not for us to know the times or the seasons - where did we Christians get the idea that we can know them? :huh:

Hosea 5:14–15 KJV
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6:1–3 KJV
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

As the end of Hosea’s two days (or two thousand years) nears, the Lord has brought you back into the land of Israel. In about 1982, the latter rain and snows came back. The rain is a sign that the Lord is coming soon. Israel is about to experience the judgment by fire and the returning to the Lord. You will live in His sight in the third day, or third thousand-year time period, which we call the kingdom age. If the third day is a thousand years long, the first two days should be two thousand years long!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Hosea 5:14–15 KJV
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6:1–3 KJV
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

As the end of Hosea’s two days (or two thousand years) nears, the Lord has brought you back into the land of Israel. In about 1982, the latter rain and snows came back. The rain is a sign that the Lord is coming soon. Israel is about to experience the judgment by fire and the returning to the Lord. You will live in His sight in the third day, or third thousand-year time period, which we call the kingdom age. If the third day is a thousand years long, the first two days should be two thousand years long!

Read on in Hosea:
4
O Ephraim, what shall I do u
nt
o thee? O Judah, what shall I do u
nt
o thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

5
Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgme
nt
s are as the light that goeth forth.

6
For I desired mercy, and n
ot
sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than bur
nt
offerings.

7
But they like men have transgressed the covena
nt
: there have they dealt treacherously against me.


Hosea is prophesying while both kingdoms were still in existence. The history of Israel, from Judges through the kingdoms, is a cycle of apostasy, judgement & repentance. Imposing a 2,000 year meaning for 2 days is totally unjustified.

You disps claim to interpret Scripture literally. It is very clear you do not - you impose a disp paradigm on all Scripture, while refusing to read it as written, as understood in context, & as applied by Jesus & his Apostles.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist


Read on in Hosea:
4
O Ephraim, what shall I do u
nt
o thee? O Judah, what shall I do u
nt
o thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

5
Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgme
nt
s are as the light that goeth forth.

6
For I desired mercy, and n
ot
sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than bur
nt
offerings.

7
But they like men have transgressed the covena
nt
: there have they dealt treacherously against me.


Hosea is prophesying while both kingdoms were still in existence. The history of Israel, from Judges through the kingdoms, is a cycle of apostasy, judgement & repentance. Imposing a 2,000 year meaning for 2 days is totally unjustified.

You disps claim to interpret Scripture literally. It is very clear you do not - you impose a disp paradigm on all Scripture, while refusing to read it as written, as understood in context, & as applied by Jesus & his Apostles.


Covenanter,
Do you believe Jesus will rule earth for 1000 years during the day of the Lord? If not, how long and when do you believe He will rule as King?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Covenanter,
Do you believe Jesus will rule earth for 1000 years during the day of the Lord? If not, how long and when do you believe He will rule as King?

I believe Jesus is presently reigning - King of kings & Lord of lords.

In Rev. 20 the 1,000 year reign, John sees the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are dead believers - they've experienced the first resurrection - conversion (John 5:24 ff) - and are awaiting the bodily resurrection. (1 Thes. 4)

Christ is reigning now, during the present "millennium" with his saints in glory. The concept of a future millennium, where Jesus again lives on earth with the ungodly, & presides over a temple where animal sacrifices for sin are offered acceptably is totally foreign to the NT. As for his glorious reign on earth being such a failure that the whole population turn against him - it's a monstrous lie.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

It was not given for the Disciples to know the times nor the seasons. Jesus said "for you". He was speaking to the Disciples at the time.



But later, it was written that we would see certain signs; men lovers of selves, proud, without natural affection, etc..


2 Timothy 3:1-5
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

If I’m going to use your own logic on you, Paul was here talking to Timothy. (2 Tim. 1:2; 3:10,15) Thus we should not apply this verse to ourselves since he was speaking to that man at that time…

But we do apply this verse to ourselves. We look to these examples of reprobate mankind as a sign of the last days. But wait – it says “from such turn away.” Who is to turn away? Us, of course. But also – who was this talking to? Timothy was being told to turn away from such men. Perhaps these ‘last days’ had already begun in his time…? If he could see such signs in his day – we can definitely see such times in our day. But it’s nothing that hasn’t been around for the past 2000 years.

Seeing as we do apply these verses to ourselves as well, let’s go back to my original post. Just as the Holy Spirit also fills us, and we are to be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth (I’m sure you’ve heard sermons applying this to ‘our’ Jerusalem and Judea, as I have.), so it may also not be for us to know the times or seasons. Edited by salyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Hosea 6:1–3 KJV
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

As the end of Hosea’s two days (or two thousand years) nears, the Lord has brought you back into the land of Israel. In about 1982, the latter rain and snows came back. The rain is a sign that the Lord is coming soon. Israel is about to experience the judgment by fire and the returning to the Lord. You will live in His sight in the third day, or third thousand-year time period, which we call the kingdom age. If the third day is a thousand years long, the first two days should be two thousand years long!


If the third day is a thousand years long – but how do we know that it is? God is outside time – thus a day to us may be a thousand years to Him or vice versa – but time still exists for us. This could be referring to the millennium - but it could just be referring to 3 literal days. This same logic tries to prove a long-age creation – and that just doesn’t work! The first verse quote here talks of Israel returning to the Lord – before any talk of days or later rain. Has Israel yet returned to their Lord? Besides, Hosea at least 750 years before Christ, right? So 2000 years from then counts to 1250. I don’t remember anything special happening with Israel then… Edited by salyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators


Christ is reigning now, during the present "millennium" with his saints in glory. The concept of a future millennium, where Jesus again lives on earth with the ungodly, & presides over a temple where animal sacrifices for sin are offered acceptably is totally foreign to the NT. As for his glorious reign on earth being such a failure that the whole population turn against him - it's a monstrous lie.


It's not that his reign is so monstrous that people turn against Him for that reason. During the millennium, children will be born and grow up (one reason it cannot be a current reign in heaven). Those children will grow up under His righteous rule - but all mankind is given a choice whether to submit to Christ or not. At the end of those years, Satan will be loosed to deceive once more. Those children born during the millennium will now have a clear choice - to continue following Christ as their King, or to follow the deceiver. Many will choose to follow Satan, and that will be the basis of that rebellion. Thus proving that fallen mankind, even when living in a near-perfect world under the direct leadership of Christ Himself, will still oft choose to follow Satan rather than our Lord. Edited by salyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

So 2000 years from then counts to 1250. I don’t remember anything special happening with Israel then…

Tongue in cheek ...
If we count the millennium from when the Jewish Christians fled from the city we get to 1066 which was a very significant year when William the antichrist invaded & terrorized England. Edited by Covenanter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Perhaps these ‘last days’ had already begun in his time…?


Of course, from Pentecost: ..... 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days,

John confirms that: 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

It was obviously the last time for Jerusalem, the temple & the Jews who rejected Christ, but we should see the last days/time continuing until Jesus returns. We can take to ourselves all the encouragements & warnings.

Whether there will be special signs immediately prior to Jesus' return - signs that we can recognise - I do not see in Scripture, except an intensified persecution as Satan & those who follow him war against believers. (Rev. 20) Our friends in the Muslim may see that, but do we, from the comfort of our computers?

Our Lord's injunction att the end of Mat. 24 stands till he does return. Watch, pray, be faithful servants. Edited by Covenanter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist



If the third day is a thousand years long – but how do we know that it is? God is outside time – thus a day to us may be a thousand years to Him or vice versa – but time still exists for us. This could be referring to the millennium - but it could just be referring to 3 literal days. This same logic tries to prove a long-age creation – and that just doesn’t work! The first verse quote here talks of Israel returning to the Lord – before any talk of days or later rain. Has Israel yet returned to their Lord? Besides, Hosea at least 750 years before Christ, right? So 2000 years from then counts to 1250. I don’t remember anything special happening with Israel then…


Hosea 5:14–15 King James Version of the Bible
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

I believe the two days start at the going away of Jesus at the ascension of Christ. The us that is being revived is the 10 tribes and Judah. They will live in Jesus sight for the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member


I believe Jesus is presently reigning - King of kings & Lord of lords.

In Rev. 20 the 1,000 year reign, John sees the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are dead believers - they've experienced the first resurrection - conversion (John 5:24 ff) - and are awaiting the bodily resurrection. (1 Thes. 4)

Christ is reigning now, during the present "millennium" with his saints in glory. The concept of a future millennium, where Jesus again lives on earth with the ungodly, & presides over a temple where animal sacrifices for sin are offered acceptably is totally foreign to the NT. As for his glorious reign on earth being such a failure that the whole population turn against him - it's a monstrous lie.


This is ludicrous. Christ reigning with his saints in glory? You must think Satan, the antichrist and false prophet are bound in the pit also? How can you honestly believe this silly nonsense? If Christ and the saints are reigning now (and boy does that sound popish) then what are they reigning over? Surely not over the kingdoms of this world. Where's the "mountain of the Lord" where the knowledge of God is spread from sea to sea and nobody needs to be taught? Yeah, sure. Christ and the saints are really reigning in the Middle East right now aren't they? If Christ is reigning now he sure is doing a lousy job of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member



This is ludicrous. Christ reigning with his saints in glory? You must think Satan, the antichrist and false prophet are bound in the pit also? How can you honestly believe this silly nonsense? If Christ and the saints are reigning now (and boy does that sound popish) then what are they reigning over? Surely not over the kingdoms of this world. Where's the "mountain of the Lord" where the knowledge of God is spread from sea to sea and nobody needs to be taught? Yeah, sure. Christ and the saints are really reigning in the Middle East right now aren't they? If Christ is reigning now he sure is doing a lousy job of it.

Wilchbla, do you believe in God? The God of the Bible? The God the Apostles & martyrs committed their lives & deaths to?

Did they believe Christ ascended to his glorious heavenly throne?
Luke 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Acts 1:3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

2:16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
...
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
...
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
...
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Did Peter express the slightest doubt the Jesus was on his heavenly throne, or that Jesus had failed in any way? Perhaps he didn't have your insight - "If Christ is reigning now he sure is doing a lousy job of it."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Blah blah blah. The bottomline is is that your Savior is doing a crummy job of reigning right now if he is. Especially in the Middle East where there is NO knowledge of God. In fact, some nations like Somalia and Afghanistan are 100% Muslim. And take a walk down the Red Light district in Amsterdam or the French Quarter in New Orleans during Mardi Gras and then tell me the devil is bound in the pit right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 5 Guests (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
×
×
  • Create New...