Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[JerryNumbers]

But a family member cannot officiate at a funeral if he is not recognized by the state as an ordained minister of the Gospel.

The Clerk of the Circuit Court in my hometown informed me that for a marriage to be recognized the officiating minister had to be ordained.

Perhaps in your state, but check out the law for your self.

I know for fact, I registered my Certificate of License without an ordination at the court house, & I'm legal to marry people.

As for funerals, the only ones that has to be licenses is the undertaker & funeral directors.

Anyone can stand & speak at funeral services that the family ask to.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It is not I that is ignoring plain English. Paul clearly states that he worked with his hands to provide for his own living and for those in his company and instructs the elders of the Church to do the same.

Working with the hands is not preaching.

What was the work Paul did with his hands? Tentmaking.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If we are to believe that

Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

is to be interpreted as only a suggestion and not a must, then we must take all other instances of the Greek word "dei" in the New Testament to be suggestion and not a must. This means when Jesus said that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things He only meant it was a suggestion and didn't necessarily have to be carried out. When He said that He must preach the Word of God, it was only suggested that He preach the Word of God. The Bishop doesn't necessarily have to be blameless, etc..

There are 106 instances of the word "dei" in the Word of God, and all are in the imperative. Acts 20 is not excluded. Paul said the elders ought to work with their hands to support themselves and the weak.

And he told the overseers in Thessalonica that they too should work for their living.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-10 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Wilchbla]

This is the conclusion I've come to.

He's ignoring plain English, and context, in the Scriptures, to avoid the idea of giving a pastor a salary, as if being a pastor is not "work".

And he still never told us where his parents in Libya got their financing, which kind of tells me that it was probably a special case that would be impossible for a normal missionary to achieve.

Missionaries to Libya? Must have been a long time ago because Libya is nearly 100% Muslim and any proselytizing would end in death.

[Wilchbla]

If we are to believe that

Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

is to be interpreted as only a suggestion and not a must, then we must take all other instances of the Greek word "dei" in the New Testament to be suggestion and not a must. This means when Jesus said that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things He only meant it was a suggestion and didn't necessarily have to be carried out. When He said that He must preach the Word of God, it was only suggested that He preach the Word of God. The Bishop doesn't necessarily have to be blameless, etc..

There are 106 instances of the word "dei" in the Word of God, and all are in the imperative. Acts 20 is not excluded. Paul said the elders ought to work with their hands to support themselves and the weak.

And he told the overseers in Thessalonica that they too should work for their living.

Maybe you should read a little further.

Acts 20:35

[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

There is nothing in that passage of scripture that suggests that a preacher or missionary is not to receive financial support from the church. Some churches want to take care of their pastor or missionaries and to free them up to give full attention to the ministering of the word of God. Should they be stopped and not receive a blessing? Paul worked so it couldn't be said that he was stealing from the churches but he also told the Corinthians that he had the right not to work and that it would be their responsibilty "not muzzle the ox that treaded the corn". Yes, it can be said that a pastor or missionary should have some kind of support for himself but to be honest most pastors I have known did have a side job or were self-employed. Yet, I don't know if this is always possible for a missionary overseas particularly in poorer countries.

Next you'll be teaching that pastors or missionaries should not marry because Paul was celibate. Edited April 9, 2012 by Wilchbla

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Maybe you should read a little further.

Acts 20:35

[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

There is nothing in that passage of scripture that suggests that a preacher or missionary is not to receive financial support from the church. Some churches want to take care of their pastor or missionaries and to free them up to give full attention to the ministering of the word of God. Should they be stopped and not receive a blessing? Paul worked so it couldn't be said that he was stealing from the churches but he also told the Corinthians that he had the right not to work and that it would be their responsibilty "not muzzle the ox that treaded the corn". Yes, it can be said that a pastor or missionary should have some kind of support for himself but to be honest most pastors I have known did have a side job or were self-employed. Yet, I don't know if this is always possible for a missionary overseas particularly in poorer countries.

Next you'll be teaching that pastors or missionaries should not marry because Paul was celibate.

I did read the rest of that verse. And that verse is telling the elders that it is more blessed for them to give than to receive. Paul was stressing the importance of them giving, not receiving. That is why he told them they ought to work with the hands... so they could give to those in need.

Receiving an occasional love gift was not prohibited. Receiving a salary for preaching the Word was.

Paul did not say "you can work with your hands if you want." No, he said "you ought to work with your hands." Edited April 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[2Tim215]

I did read the rest of that verse. And that verse is telling the elders that it is more blessed for them to give than to receive. Paul was stressing the importance of them giving, not receiving. That is why he told them they ought to work with the hands... so they could give to those in need.

Receiving an occasional love gift was not prohibited. Receiving a salary for preaching the Word was.

Paul did not say "you can work with your hands if you want." No, he said "you ought to work with your hands."

I can not find that phrase any where in the KJB so please tell me which version you are using.

I did however find these verses:

1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

And none of these are commands to pastors specifically so explain where you get that statement that you hyphenated as if it is a verse?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Acts 20... In verse 34 Paul told the elders that he worked with his hands. In verse 35, he said so labouring ye ought to support the weak. Paul was saying I worked with my hands and you should be working with your hands too.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[2Tim215]

Acts 20... In verse 34 Paul told the elders that he worked with his hands. In verse 35, he said so labouring ye ought to support the weak. Paul was saying I worked with my hands and you should be working with your hands too.

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

No he was not saying that. Right through the chapter he speaks of all he has done and the sacrifices he has made for the gospel and the church. He then tells them that he has COVETED no mans silver, gold etc. He then tells them that THEY THEMSELVES are aware that he has supported himself AND THOSE WITH HIM, with his own hands. What, if he was COMMANDING all who serve the Lord through preaching why did he support those with him and they did no work? This is not a command - this is Paul shaming them through his own example, that as he was able to support those with him so should they through their labors support the weak. Not all were gifted with the ability or with the skill of a trade to support themselves. Paul then leaves them with a reminder of the Words of Jesus, which is always a command - "it's more blessed to give than receive" - this is the POINT of the whole passage here - that they should support those that minister unto them if they are unable to support themselves.

You are right concerning faith and that it is God who supplies all our needs - but you make God and His Word a liar by stating that God does not want the church supporting His servants. Once again you have taken out of context and twisted to suit your own agenda and doctrine. I pray for the ignorant that have been mislead by you!!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Paul was not shaming them at all. You are reading into the text what is not there. Paul clearly is telling the elders that they are to work just as he himself worked..

It is not me that is doing the twisting.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

Its appalling that you feel that pastors do not work by being a pastor.

Your posts sound like they are out of jealousy, not Bible.

I'm done with this thread, its ridiculous.

[Calvary]

Sorry Calvary. But Paul clearly reveals it Acts and in Thessalonians that the elders are not supported by the Church.

He wouldn't tell Timothy the opposite. Honour in Timothy does not mean a salary no matter how much you wish it was.

Your argument isn't with me. It's with James Strong who said you are a liar telling us that the word "time" does not mean wages. Then there is the evidence of context. Honor for the widow is not respect but physical care. Double honor for the pastor is not double respect, it is double care. You continue as complete and total hack. You should just stop because every time you open your mouth on this thread you are proven to be a liar who twists passages and ignores clear evidence. You completey ignore your previous statement that the word "time" means honor and when faced with the Strong's definition of the word you prattle on as if you never read my post.

Sorry Standing Firm in Pride, you posted a false statement as fact, I called you on it and you admit no wrong. You have no integrity at all.

God bless,
Calvary

[Calvary]

One good thing that comes form a long and twisted debate over a biblical topic is that many sides are heard. Pro, con, a few rabbit trails. My purpose is not to convince this heretic he is wrong, but to convince others that he is wrong in order to turn them away from a false teacher. This man is unrepentent when he is found to be a liar. In truth I could care less if he wanted to deprive a church of their duty to the minister. That is a personal choice. My desire is to teach the whole counsle of the word of God, not just snippets and out of context verses to those that seek God's leading in serving Him as a full time vocation. Dear brother or sister in Christ, care not for the railings of this fool who cares nothing for truth. If the Lord has called you, He has a great plan to provide for you. It's called the local church. He has established clearly in His word that local churches will and should colabor with you in your calling. Fear not! His provision is timely and always in abundance. He has said you are worth DOUBLE HONOR and He will take care of your needs. Though, sadly, he will probably not be able to use this prattling fool who has deemed any pastor who recieves a stipend as a beggar.

This thread which I thjink Ill lock now stands as a treatise to any one interested about what the BIble says over the provision and care of the full time worker.

Thank you all for a good and lively debate, thank you to those who contributed sound and logical scriptural arguements along the way. Iron sharpens iron and I am glad that we had this discussion.

SFIC, I am ashamed of you and for you as you would deny the brethren their due and like Judas who held the bag, refused to allow the Lord's generosity be seen as a blessing.

God bless,
Calvary