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Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?


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I have asked this fellow what he uses as study aides or extra biblical resources besides the Bible. I have as yet to receive a response.


He is most likely greatly admires Steve Van Natten (sp check?) A piano tuner in Tenn who beleives himself to be somewhat an authority on God's will for the brethren. I would name the web site, but I'd hate to give directions to folks to a place for fools. Edited by Calvary
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Second Installment:

I posted some thoughts about the clear teaching that a pastor or full time worker can expect to be paid for his ministry a livelihood. If there have been any detractions, they haven’t made it to the board. My main purpose was in confronting the attitude of Standing Firm, a poster here who had stated in no uncertain terms that a missionary who went out looking for support was a beggar, lacked faith and was not in the will of God. I have been a missionary on the foreign field for just over 12 years; have worked in 3 different states in the country I live in starting churches in every one of them thus far. I came to the field with $430 US a month. So I guess I wasn’t much of a beggar heh? I don’t recommend that, I do however recommend you get money committed to your support and never hang your head due to the ignorance of a fool who would berate your walk of faith as your serve the Lord. Hold your head up, God has in fact designed a plan for you to have your needs met. It’s called the church. Local church or just the plain old church which is His body. Either way you see it, that is the entity that God has laid His sacred trust of getting the gospel to the world and it is His agency that has been charged with the task of getting His name declared on amongst the Gentiles.

I said earlier that there are 4 main phrases the Bible uses to denote financial or moral support. Both are of equal importance. If you only give me your money and do not pray for me, you send me to defeat and discouragement. Let’s look at the main one, BROUGHT FORWARD.

The Greek is more of an idea than a single word, it’s a principle or an understanding as it is not translated as a single word but as a phrase and a few times as an entire sentence. Hence the blessed men of our KJB understood the role the church played in evangelizing the world and its responsibility to those that the Lord called to fulfill this task abroad.

Propempó: to send forward, that is to escort or aid in travel – accompany, bring (forward) on journey (way), conduct forth. The word is a compound word that is derived from PRO (the preposition “fore” “in front of” or “prior”) and PEMPO (“dispatch” or to “send”). Typically the word is used as sent, as in Jesus sent two of the disciples, or as in Paul sent Timothy. Or as in God sent governers to punish evildoers. It’s a simple verb.

So let’s look at some verses shall we?

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Apparently they were provided with what they needed to travel, i.e.: provision, food, clothing perhaps, shelter, etc. It is certain they had no property of their own. So the church provided them with what they needed in order to do what the Lord had told them to do, mainly converting people to Christ. In fact they came and told the church about the conversions of the gentiles and it was cause for rejoicing. NOTICE, not only did the church bring them on their way (propempó), yes that entire phrase is one word, but when they got back to give reports about their activities, the church “received” of the church. (Acts 15:4)

Acts 20:28 and Acts 21:5 also use the term brought on their way. It is the secondary idea and carries the idea of conducting a person on his way, or accompanying them a bit. In Acts 21:5, they are done outfitting the ship (another suggestion that being brought on your way includes physical provision) and brought on their way down to the seaside and then they kneel and pray together. That as well is of great importance in bringing along the full time minister, we needs pray for them as well. Not just send them with a little of our silver.

Rom 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

Paul was expecting that the Roman church assist him in regards to his journey. In other words, it was the custom of the churches to finance the journeys of the Apostles, meet their physical needs and Paul was by no means bashful about it nor did he feign any humility over it., It was simply this: I have to get where the Lord is leading me, I have no means of getting there other than you providing for my passage and look forward to the fellowship we’ll have when I get there.

Just last month my pastor called me and asked if I had any plans of getting around to the Northwest. (We have taken 1 furlough in 12 years). I said I hadn’t planned on it. He wanted me to preach for him on a certain weekend; I said I was unable at this time to plan such a trip. He said, I buy, you fly. I said see you next week and I long to be filled with your company. I then called a few more churches in the Northwest, a few in Oregon, a few in Washington and they agreed to meet with me. 4 of them I never met before but there are folks there that have spoken well to their pastor so the interest was there in meeting me. I also visited with 4 other churches that have co labored with me for many years. What a great time I had declaring the conversion of the gentiles to our glorious Savior! Guess what, I have no car in the states. A family loaned me one. I have no home in the states. Several families had me to stay. I have no monies for traveling form city to city; all my funds are tied into our ministry here. Every church generously provide for my travel and much more. They asked me about my needs. I never broadcast them beforehand. I came back to the field and have some funds that will go towards a very real need in the church’s here.

THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.

1Co 16:6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.

THAT ye may bring me on my journey, His entire purpose for the visit was to get more of his needs met.

1Co 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
1Co 16:11 Let no man therefore despise him: but conduct him forth in peace, that he may come unto me: for I look for him with the brethren.

Another full time worker? What shall we do? Is Paul worried their won’t be enough to go around? Let no man despise him. TREAT HIM AS A SERVANT OF THE LORD DESERVES. Conduct him forth (propempó). With whatever he needs!!

Well, I think we get the picture.

2Co 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
2Co 1:16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.

Paul says I need you to get me to Judea. I have some needs to travel, it costs money to travel, in fact travelling is usually very expensive in compared to simply living somewhere in a borrowed house. The receipts rack up quick. I was amazed at how much I had to pay in gas, a few nights here and there in a rented room, stopping at a place to get a quick bite to eat. Whew! I know why I rarely leave the country of my calling! Too expensive!

Tit 3:13 Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

That nothing be wanting. Bring… on their journey…That is the idea that the Greek word encompasses. As I said, it is usually a few words as the word “bring” does not execute what it denotes sufficiently.

The best for last.

3Jn 1:5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
3Jn 1:6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
3Jn 1:7 Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
3Jn 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.
3Jn 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

A tremendous mission’s passage. I have taught this passage many times to new congregations in order that they too have the right heart towards the full time worker and care for his needs as the Bible clearly teaches we should.

Notice that when we care for the needs of the workers, they bare witness of our love, and they do so before the church. Does your church have a reputation of being charitable? Or do you suspect every full time worker as being a loafer and looking for a handout? Shame on you if you have not this charitable testimony!
Notice also that John says the blessing is contingent upon the charity! IF thou bring forward on their journey. Same language as Paul. That’s 2 Apostles who lived the principle that the church should care for the workers. In the mouth of 2 witnesses.
They went out for His name’s sake! They took nothing from their converts!! I do not receive a dime from any church I planted. NO national supports me. Not because it’s illegal, which it is, but it’s not God’s way! I am not staying in this work permanently, I am looking for the one the Lord will raise up to train and leave as pastor.
John says you ought to receive a missionary in order to be blessed.

And then John says there are some who care for none of these ideas. They are like this man Diotrephes. They think a missionary is a beggar, they think that a man who went forth taking nothing form the Gentiles is a faithless man. They actually believe that he ought to be treated like any other person in any church anywhere. Yet the opposite is true isn’t it?

Paul has said repeatedly that they should be treated well, brought along on their journeys, lack nothing and it should all be provided for by the church.

Is that your opinion? Or are you like Diotrephes, a man who we never heard from again, lost to the annals of history and whose fruit we know nothing about.

As for me, I’m going to continue to work hard (I work harder now than as a hot tar roofer!).

Come and visit me some summer, see if you can keep up brother! It’s 101 in the shade down here! Lol

God bless,
calvary

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I agree with you Calvary, yet I will say that some live way to high off of God's Word, but that's for our Lord to take care of.

True. It's a shame more churches don't check some pastors out more carefully. For there are some pastors who constantly move from church to church for nothing more than larger paychecks.

I'm thankful our pastor has turned down several offers to become pastor of larger churches that offered him much larger paychecks because he wants to pastor where God leads, not where the dollar signs are.

Our associate pastor halted his pre-med education, planning to become a doctor, when the Lord called him to pastor. He turned down potentially huge paychecks, receiving the humble size paycheck of (now) an associate pastor.
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As for me, I’m going to continue to work hard (I work harder now than as a hot tar roofer!).

Come and visit me some summer, see if you can keep up brother! It’s 101 in the shade down here! Lol

God bless,
calvary


I'm not going to re-post all that you said. I wish I were as knowledgeable in scripture as you. I doubt you will receive a reply from those who dissent in mission giving and go on to call God's man foul names. God bless the work you're doing and you remain in my prayers.
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You are being dishonest, Calvary. I never said missionaries should not receive support. I said they should not go out begging for support. There is not one single instance in the Word of God of a missionary going out on deputation. God did not say "Go, but first drum up support" No, He simply said, "Go."

God: Did I not tell you to go preach my Word?
Man: Yes, but I couldn't get the support needed.

Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.

You can continue to defend the unbiblical doctrine of drumming up support for missionaries all you wish, I will not. The Word of God does not either.

I will not post again in this thread.

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True. It's a shame more churches don't check some pastors out more carefully. For there are some pastors who constantly move from church to church for nothing more than larger paychecks.

I'm thankful our pastor has turned down several offers to become pastor of larger churches that offered him much larger paychecks because he wants to pastor where God leads, not where the dollar signs are.

Our associate pastor halted his pre-med education, planning to become a doctor, when the Lord called him to pastor. He turned down potentially huge paychecks, receiving the humble size paycheck of (now) an associate pastor.


John, I think that the great percentage of pastors do it for the Lord and not the paycheck. At least I would think it's that way. A few bad apples here and there should not disparage us to suspect every pastor of ulterior motives. The Bible says that these men are worthy of double honor.
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John, I think that the great percentage of pastors do it for the Lord and not the paycheck. At least I would think it's that way. A few bad apples here and there should not disparage us to suspect every pastor of ulterior motives. The Bible says that these men are worthy of double honor.

I never implied it was a lot of pastors, only some. Of course it also depends upon whether we are talking about IFB pastors only or all pastors of all professing Christian churches.

If we limit it to only pastors who are actually born again preachers of the Word, I would say very few seek the big paycheck. Beyond those, the number would grow.

I honour all Godly pastors, as my reference to our pastor and associate pastor should indicate.
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You are being dishonest, Calvary. I never said missionaries should not receive support. I said they should not go out begging for support. There is not one single instance in the Word of God of a missionary going out on deputation. God did not say "Go, but first drum up support" No, He simply said, "Go."

God: Did I not tell you to go preach my Word?
Man: Yes, but I couldn't get the support needed.

Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.

You can continue to defend the unbiblical doctrine of drumming up support for missionaries all you wish, I will not. The Word of God does not either.

I will not post again in this thread.


Of course you won't. There was too much scripture to argue with. Deputation does take an extreme amount of faith. Since you've never done it, you probably wouldn't know about sleeping on the side of the road with your 2 kids while you wait for the next meeting, living in a tent at state parks and preaching to the Good Samaritans Travel Club! Brushing your teeth in the gas station bathroom to be presentable as you drive up to the church mtng. Or have you ever had to leave the security of a high 5 figure salary to a 430 dollar pay month? nahhhh, you have too much faith for that don't you? (sarc/on)

Of course you won't post in this thread, you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on except the faux argument of not mentioned. Neither are hymnals, neither are commentaries, neither are cars, neither are half the stuff you practice every Sunday, so your argument from silence is simply a cult tactic to maintain control over some little flock you lead. .

The point isn't deputation or not, Missions Boards or not, the point is the fact is God never delineated exactly how to get men to the field, but he did clearly lay out a plan that churches help the men who do. That much is clear. While you parse and bray as a mule, the only dishonest man here is you Standing Firm. You refuse to admit that your are out in the weeds on this and the scriptures slapped your mouth shut on it!
Bringing men forward is the Biblical principle. How that happens probably matters little to God, as much as that it just gets done.
Bringing men forward is the church's responsibility. They need to engage in the needs of men to support their families, their travels and their physical needs. Denying a man who needs help because you strain at the gnat of deputation is a demonstration of your lack of faith to spend your livelihood on the work of God.

I never have begged for a single dime in my life. I simply followed the Biblical model of looking for the help God would provide through His Body. Which is what he showed me to do through His Holy word.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Pharisee.

God bless,
calvary
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I never implied it was a lot of pastors, only some. Of course it also depends upon whether we are talking about IFB pastors only or all pastors of all professing Christian churches. If we limit it to only pastors who are actually born again preachers of the Word, I would say very few seek the big paycheck. Beyond those, the number would grow. I honour all Godly pastors, as my reference to our pastor and associate pastor should indicate.


I'm sorry John, I didn't mean to suggest that you distrust pastors. I believe you do in fact honor the Lord as you sacrificially support missions and your church. I was agreeing with you.

God bless,
calvary :biggrin:
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What a lot of people stateside overlook is that MANY countries have the policy that we should have ---- if you're not a citizen (native or naturalized) of our country, you can't get a job here, PERIOD -- so don't even try, unless you want trouble!

A lot of countries also won't let you in for extended periods (more than a 3 month tourist visa) without proof of financial substantiation (American, "I have no source of income except God". Agent determining visa approval, "Sorry, you're not getting into our country.")

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