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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?


Calvary
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I have asked this fellow what he uses as study aides or extra biblical resources besides the Bible. I have as yet to receive a response.


He is most likely greatly admires Steve Van Natten (sp check?) A piano tuner in Tenn who beleives himself to be somewhat an authority on God's will for the brethren. I would name the web site, but I'd hate to give directions to folks to a place for fools. Edited by Calvary
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Second Installment:

I posted some thoughts about the clear teaching that a pastor or full time worker can expect to be paid for his ministry a livelihood. If there have been any detractions, they haven’t made it to the board. My main purpose was in confronting the attitude of Standing Firm, a poster here who had stated in no uncertain terms that a missionary who went out looking for support was a beggar, lacked faith and was not in the will of God. I have been a missionary on the foreign field for just over 12 years; have worked in 3 different states in the country I live in starting churches in every one of them thus far. I came to the field with $430 US a month. So I guess I wasn’t much of a beggar heh? I don’t recommend that, I do however recommend you get money committed to your support and never hang your head due to the ignorance of a fool who would berate your walk of faith as your serve the Lord. Hold your head up, God has in fact designed a plan for you to have your needs met. It’s called the church. Local church or just the plain old church which is His body. Either way you see it, that is the entity that God has laid His sacred trust of getting the gospel to the world and it is His agency that has been charged with the task of getting His name declared on amongst the Gentiles.

I said earlier that there are 4 main phrases the Bible uses to denote financial or moral support. Both are of equal importance. If you only give me your money and do not pray for me, you send me to defeat and discouragement. Let’s look at the main one, BROUGHT FORWARD.

The Greek is more of an idea than a single word, it’s a principle or an understanding as it is not translated as a single word but as a phrase and a few times as an entire sentence. Hence the blessed men of our KJB understood the role the church played in evangelizing the world and its responsibility to those that the Lord called to fulfill this task abroad.

Propempó: to send forward, that is to escort or aid in travel – accompany, bring (forward) on journey (way), conduct forth. The word is a compound word that is derived from PRO (the preposition “fore” “in front of” or “prior”) and PEMPO (“dispatch” or to “send”). Typically the word is used as sent, as in Jesus sent two of the disciples, or as in Paul sent Timothy. Or as in God sent governers to punish evildoers. It’s a simple verb.

So let’s look at some verses shall we?

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Apparently they were provided with what they needed to travel, i.e.: provision, food, clothing perhaps, shelter, etc. It is certain they had no property of their own. So the church provided them with what they needed in order to do what the Lord had told them to do, mainly converting people to Christ. In fact they came and told the church about the conversions of the gentiles and it was cause for rejoicing. NOTICE, not only did the church bring them on their way (propempó), yes that entire phrase is one word, but when they got back to give reports about their activities, the church “received” of the church. (Acts 15:4)

Acts 20:28 and Acts 21:5 also use the term brought on their way. It is the secondary idea and carries the idea of conducting a person on his way, or accompanying them a bit. In Acts 21:5, they are done outfitting the ship (another suggestion that being brought on your way includes physical provision) and brought on their way down to the seaside and then they kneel and pray together. That as well is of great importance in bringing along the full time minister, we needs pray for them as well. Not just send them with a little of our silver.

Rom 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

Paul was expecting that the Roman church assist him in regards to his journey. In other words, it was the custom of the churches to finance the journeys of the Apostles, meet their physical needs and Paul was by no means bashful about it nor did he feign any humility over it., It was simply this: I have to get where the Lord is leading me, I have no means of getting there other than you providing for my passage and look forward to the fellowship we’ll have when I get there.

Just last month my pastor called me and asked if I had any plans of getting around to the Northwest. (We have taken 1 furlough in 12 years). I said I hadn’t planned on it. He wanted me to preach for him on a certain weekend; I said I was unable at this time to plan such a trip. He said, I buy, you fly. I said see you next week and I long to be filled with your company. I then called a few more churches in the Northwest, a few in Oregon, a few in Washington and they agreed to meet with me. 4 of them I never met before but there are folks there that have spoken well to their pastor so the interest was there in meeting me. I also visited with 4 other churches that have co labored with me for many years. What a great time I had declaring the conversion of the gentiles to our glorious Savior! Guess what, I have no car in the states. A family loaned me one. I have no home in the states. Several families had me to stay. I have no monies for traveling form city to city; all my funds are tied into our ministry here. Every church generously provide for my travel and much more. They asked me about my needs. I never broadcast them beforehand. I came back to the field and have some funds that will go towards a very real need in the church’s here.

THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.

1Co 16:6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.

THAT ye may bring me on my journey, His entire purpose for the visit was to get more of his needs met.

1Co 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
1Co 16:11 Let no man therefore despise him: but conduct him forth in peace, that he may come unto me: for I look for him with the brethren.

Another full time worker? What shall we do? Is Paul worried their won’t be enough to go around? Let no man despise him. TREAT HIM AS A SERVANT OF THE LORD DESERVES. Conduct him forth (propempó). With whatever he needs!!

Well, I think we get the picture.

2Co 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
2Co 1:16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.

Paul says I need you to get me to Judea. I have some needs to travel, it costs money to travel, in fact travelling is usually very expensive in compared to simply living somewhere in a borrowed house. The receipts rack up quick. I was amazed at how much I had to pay in gas, a few nights here and there in a rented room, stopping at a place to get a quick bite to eat. Whew! I know why I rarely leave the country of my calling! Too expensive!

Tit 3:13 Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

That nothing be wanting. Bring… on their journey…That is the idea that the Greek word encompasses. As I said, it is usually a few words as the word “bring” does not execute what it denotes sufficiently.

The best for last.

3Jn 1:5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
3Jn 1:6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
3Jn 1:7 Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
3Jn 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.
3Jn 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

A tremendous mission’s passage. I have taught this passage many times to new congregations in order that they too have the right heart towards the full time worker and care for his needs as the Bible clearly teaches we should.

Notice that when we care for the needs of the workers, they bare witness of our love, and they do so before the church. Does your church have a reputation of being charitable? Or do you suspect every full time worker as being a loafer and looking for a handout? Shame on you if you have not this charitable testimony!
Notice also that John says the blessing is contingent upon the charity! IF thou bring forward on their journey. Same language as Paul. That’s 2 Apostles who lived the principle that the church should care for the workers. In the mouth of 2 witnesses.
They went out for His name’s sake! They took nothing from their converts!! I do not receive a dime from any church I planted. NO national supports me. Not because it’s illegal, which it is, but it’s not God’s way! I am not staying in this work permanently, I am looking for the one the Lord will raise up to train and leave as pastor.
John says you ought to receive a missionary in order to be blessed.

And then John says there are some who care for none of these ideas. They are like this man Diotrephes. They think a missionary is a beggar, they think that a man who went forth taking nothing form the Gentiles is a faithless man. They actually believe that he ought to be treated like any other person in any church anywhere. Yet the opposite is true isn’t it?

Paul has said repeatedly that they should be treated well, brought along on their journeys, lack nothing and it should all be provided for by the church.

Is that your opinion? Or are you like Diotrephes, a man who we never heard from again, lost to the annals of history and whose fruit we know nothing about.

As for me, I’m going to continue to work hard (I work harder now than as a hot tar roofer!).

Come and visit me some summer, see if you can keep up brother! It’s 101 in the shade down here! Lol

God bless,
calvary

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I agree with you Calvary, yet I will say that some live way to high off of God's Word, but that's for our Lord to take care of.

True. It's a shame more churches don't check some pastors out more carefully. For there are some pastors who constantly move from church to church for nothing more than larger paychecks.

I'm thankful our pastor has turned down several offers to become pastor of larger churches that offered him much larger paychecks because he wants to pastor where God leads, not where the dollar signs are.

Our associate pastor halted his pre-med education, planning to become a doctor, when the Lord called him to pastor. He turned down potentially huge paychecks, receiving the humble size paycheck of (now) an associate pastor.
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As for me, I’m going to continue to work hard (I work harder now than as a hot tar roofer!).

Come and visit me some summer, see if you can keep up brother! It’s 101 in the shade down here! Lol

God bless,
calvary


I'm not going to re-post all that you said. I wish I were as knowledgeable in scripture as you. I doubt you will receive a reply from those who dissent in mission giving and go on to call God's man foul names. God bless the work you're doing and you remain in my prayers.
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You are being dishonest, Calvary. I never said missionaries should not receive support. I said they should not go out begging for support. There is not one single instance in the Word of God of a missionary going out on deputation. God did not say "Go, but first drum up support" No, He simply said, "Go."

God: Did I not tell you to go preach my Word?
Man: Yes, but I couldn't get the support needed.

Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.

You can continue to defend the unbiblical doctrine of drumming up support for missionaries all you wish, I will not. The Word of God does not either.

I will not post again in this thread.

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True. It's a shame more churches don't check some pastors out more carefully. For there are some pastors who constantly move from church to church for nothing more than larger paychecks.

I'm thankful our pastor has turned down several offers to become pastor of larger churches that offered him much larger paychecks because he wants to pastor where God leads, not where the dollar signs are.

Our associate pastor halted his pre-med education, planning to become a doctor, when the Lord called him to pastor. He turned down potentially huge paychecks, receiving the humble size paycheck of (now) an associate pastor.


John, I think that the great percentage of pastors do it for the Lord and not the paycheck. At least I would think it's that way. A few bad apples here and there should not disparage us to suspect every pastor of ulterior motives. The Bible says that these men are worthy of double honor.
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John, I think that the great percentage of pastors do it for the Lord and not the paycheck. At least I would think it's that way. A few bad apples here and there should not disparage us to suspect every pastor of ulterior motives. The Bible says that these men are worthy of double honor.

I never implied it was a lot of pastors, only some. Of course it also depends upon whether we are talking about IFB pastors only or all pastors of all professing Christian churches.

If we limit it to only pastors who are actually born again preachers of the Word, I would say very few seek the big paycheck. Beyond those, the number would grow.

I honour all Godly pastors, as my reference to our pastor and associate pastor should indicate.
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You are being dishonest, Calvary. I never said missionaries should not receive support. I said they should not go out begging for support. There is not one single instance in the Word of God of a missionary going out on deputation. God did not say "Go, but first drum up support" No, He simply said, "Go."

God: Did I not tell you to go preach my Word?
Man: Yes, but I couldn't get the support needed.

Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.

You can continue to defend the unbiblical doctrine of drumming up support for missionaries all you wish, I will not. The Word of God does not either.

I will not post again in this thread.


Of course you won't. There was too much scripture to argue with. Deputation does take an extreme amount of faith. Since you've never done it, you probably wouldn't know about sleeping on the side of the road with your 2 kids while you wait for the next meeting, living in a tent at state parks and preaching to the Good Samaritans Travel Club! Brushing your teeth in the gas station bathroom to be presentable as you drive up to the church mtng. Or have you ever had to leave the security of a high 5 figure salary to a 430 dollar pay month? nahhhh, you have too much faith for that don't you? (sarc/on)

Of course you won't post in this thread, you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on except the faux argument of not mentioned. Neither are hymnals, neither are commentaries, neither are cars, neither are half the stuff you practice every Sunday, so your argument from silence is simply a cult tactic to maintain control over some little flock you lead. .

The point isn't deputation or not, Missions Boards or not, the point is the fact is God never delineated exactly how to get men to the field, but he did clearly lay out a plan that churches help the men who do. That much is clear. While you parse and bray as a mule, the only dishonest man here is you Standing Firm. You refuse to admit that your are out in the weeds on this and the scriptures slapped your mouth shut on it!
Bringing men forward is the Biblical principle. How that happens probably matters little to God, as much as that it just gets done.
Bringing men forward is the church's responsibility. They need to engage in the needs of men to support their families, their travels and their physical needs. Denying a man who needs help because you strain at the gnat of deputation is a demonstration of your lack of faith to spend your livelihood on the work of God.

I never have begged for a single dime in my life. I simply followed the Biblical model of looking for the help God would provide through His Body. Which is what he showed me to do through His Holy word.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Pharisee.

God bless,
calvary
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I never implied it was a lot of pastors, only some. Of course it also depends upon whether we are talking about IFB pastors only or all pastors of all professing Christian churches. If we limit it to only pastors who are actually born again preachers of the Word, I would say very few seek the big paycheck. Beyond those, the number would grow. I honour all Godly pastors, as my reference to our pastor and associate pastor should indicate.


I'm sorry John, I didn't mean to suggest that you distrust pastors. I believe you do in fact honor the Lord as you sacrificially support missions and your church. I was agreeing with you.

God bless,
calvary :biggrin:
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What a lot of people stateside overlook is that MANY countries have the policy that we should have ---- if you're not a citizen (native or naturalized) of our country, you can't get a job here, PERIOD -- so don't even try, unless you want trouble!

A lot of countries also won't let you in for extended periods (more than a 3 month tourist visa) without proof of financial substantiation (American, "I have no source of income except God". Agent determining visa approval, "Sorry, you're not getting into our country.")

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Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.



I was wondering myself, the only picture I saw was in your avatar. I can only hope that it is not really you.
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I'm sorry John, I didn't mean to suggest that you distrust pastors. I believe you do in fact honor the Lord as you sacrificially support missions and your church. I was agreeing with you.

God bless,
calvary :biggrin:

It's good to be in agreement!
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What a lot of people stateside overlook is that MANY countries have the policy that we should have ---- if you're not a citizen (native or naturalized) of our country, you can't get a job here, PERIOD -- so don't even try, unless you want trouble!

A lot of countries also won't let you in for extended periods (more than a 3 month tourist visa) without proof of financial substantiation (American, "I have no source of income except God". Agent determining visa approval, "Sorry, you're not getting into our country.")

That's true and part of the reason many have worked to bring about native missionaries in many countries.
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per the topic of pastors: Many good pastors exist; unfortunately there is a huge trend of seeking a "starter church", move up, build resume', climb higher, build retirement.

That sounds exactly like what our pastor has pointed out a few times.

Much of this comes not only from selfish and greedy sinful nature, but also from wayward seminaries with ungrounded or even unsaved professors teaching the ways of the world more than the ways of God.
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How about the other side of the picture. I have approached many "missionary" organizations in the past and because I don't go to a church as the closest IFB church that I trust is over 950 kms away and they only have 20-30 people on a good Sunday, I am not an "acceptable" candidate for missions work. I have been to most of the churches here in my town and their doctrine is so far off I usually end up walking out during the service.I do not have a trust fund, I do not believe in asking for money and God hasn't supplied as yet so I have stopped trying. Many a young man has been called and short of God Himself depositing money into their bank account are unable to afford to study or enter the ministry. Many churches these days I find are tight fisted with their funds and will usually only assist those who have been involved in the church for some time. You can't really blame them though as many have abused the trust placed in them over the years.

I agree that SFIC is a bit strong in his view concerning "deputation" and "begging" for assistance, but is he wrong concerning the faith issue? Not in my opinion. Too many pastors, missionaries and others doing church work are in it for the wrong reasons and are not called and shouldn't be doing it. They cause more harm than good. So if God doesn't provide then you can be sure that you shouldn't be there because if He has called you He WILL make a way. He didn't make a way for me so I have to believe that my "calling" was my desire and not His will for me. This is just my opinion from my own personal experience. So without some form of making it known that God has called a young man into the ministry how else are they to proceed?

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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