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Men and Women appart


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If one questions man-made interpretations, traditions and the 'status quo' he is running well. Twisting a King James Bible and trying to make one word mean another is no different from using an NIV. Absolutely no different. You end up with junk like "angels cohabited with women" and "Noah's son Ham brought the curse of slavery on Black people" and "Noah's son committed a homosexual act on his father" and the list goes on ( all taught in my IFB church) and you're labeled a rebel and a troublemaker or a "goat" if you even think of disagreeing with a wacky interpretation. If you want to keep the status quo and avoid conflict, just don't be audacious enough to really study your KIng James Bible and Heaven forbid never question anyone...that is a crime. Then, when someone comes along and ventures to introduce some seriously dangerous doctrine, they can do so without any opposition because everyone FEARS "God's anointed". Now I'll go to my room.

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Have you read anything about the early church understanding of elders? Have you read any of Eusebius or Bede? What is the idea you get when you see the term in Scripture, and read it in context with other Scriptures?
No. No. I don't actually know the term from Scripture... only from the Baptists. As far as I know from Greek the words that might relate are bishop, deacon or pastor... but in your church it seems that elders choose the pastors so there is a double office or some kind of thing like that.

You might want to do some more reading on this. "Elders" is just a general term which seems to refer to "older, respected men" in the church, some of whom might be serving as pastors/bishops, deacons, or whatever else.


No. There are clearly two meanings of the word "church" in Scripture: 1: a local gathering of believers (not just Baptists) and 2: all believers around the world who belong to Christ (his "Church") The instructions to Timothy and Titus (two pastors) as well as the instructions to the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, etc., are obviously for their local assemblies...how they should be governed, the kinds of people who qualify for leadership, what the roles of women are to be in those assemblies. These passages are not addressing the "church in general," but local assemblies which meet regularly to observe the Lord's Day, Lord's Table, etc. So, these are the patterns given in Scripture for how a local body of believers is to be governed, shepherded, etc. (Of course, there are references to the "general church" in these epistles as well, but the guidelines for deacons, pastors, etc., are obviously for local bodies.)
I don't understand... I though all the New Testament was meant for us to learn from it... not just the local Churches in the Early Church. You yourself have mentioned that the guidelines for deacons/pastors was meant for today. Do you mean women can teach men outside of the Early Christians church?


Let me try to clarify. There is a difference in purpose between the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the epistles (or letters) from Paul to the early churches. The purpose of the gospels is to reveal the Messiah--his history, his miracles, his death, resurrection, etc. The purpose of the Acts is to narrate events that happened in relation to the birth and growth of the Church after Christ returned to heaven, and to detail the apostles' part in those events. The epistles, or letters to individual churches and pastors, detail specific admonitions relating to how "life in the church" should look, and how "life in the home" should look. If I am wondering where to look in order to find out how God wants his church to be organized and led, I'm not going to look in the gospels, or the Old Testament prophets, or in the Hebrew history books. I'm going to look in the epistles, which actually address the subject in detail. In these epistles, it is stated in no uncertain terms that the woman's role in the local church is not a teaching role, but a learning, supporting, serving role, except when it comes to children and other women. It's not obscure or hard to understand; it's right there in black and white. And nothing else in all of Scripture, Old or New Testament, contradicts this teaching, or even gives me a reason to look deeper into the issue.

I'm sure it happens differently in every church when it comes down to details, since the details aren’t really spelled out in Scripture. This process is happening right now in the church in which I grew up. I'll try to describe it for you. A pulpit committee is formed by the congregation for the purpose of dedicating themselves to looking for a new pastor. Any member of the congregation may submit nominations (from among the local church group, or from outside the group) to the pulpit committee. Also, the committee makes contact with various sources (like universities, other churches, etc.) to see if there is anyone who is looking for a pastorate that might be a good fit for this congregation. All nominations are vetted...That is, the pulpit committee searches out references for each name, conducts interviews, looks into the men’s backgrounds, etc. During this time, some nominees may choose to remove their names. At this point (at the church I referenced), there are three men whose names remain in nomination. The pulpit committee is getting ready to announce their findings to the congregation and continue the process of determining who would best fit the office of pastor. These proceedings occur slowly, carefully, and with unity in the church body.
I assume this already pressuposes that the community knows what to look for or else they would be just "pulling straws"... right?
Does this imply that people can get chosen even if they do not want to be in that list? What do you mean with "some nominees may choose"? Does that mean that some others may not?

Yes, the community knows the qualifications listed in I Timothy 3 and other places.
No, I believe I said that the nominees may choose to remove their names from consideration. What I mean by that is this: Let's say that a man gets nominated, and he does not think that God is calling him to be a pastor. He would then remove his name from the list of possible candidates. Hope that clears it up for you.
What does it mean by unity? Everybody has to agree?

No, just that a spirit of unity characterizes the whole process. People aren't "lobbying" for their choice, and candidates aren't "running" like a politician would. A body of believers can be unified in spirit yet not agree 100% on everything. An essential quality of that unity is allowing others the freedom to disagree, just as I want others to give me that freedom. I'm not sure what percentage of a church has to agree in the vote for a new pastor....It is probably different for every church. In the church I now attend, the vote was actually unanimous when it came to appointing the pastor we now have. He is much loved by everyone.

I would imagine I mean the same thing when I say “teaching” as you do when you use the word. In Scripture, in the local church context, “teaching” means formally instructing the assembled body of believers in the word. The Bible says that a woman is not to teach in this context, but is to sit in silence.
I believe in God and I am a man, and you have been teaching me a lot... does this mean you are wrong?

I am merely sharing what Baptists believe on a discussion board. This conversation is not within the context of a local body of believers. We are sharing things together on a casual level as we interact...You are both informing me about some things and learning from my perspective, and I am both learning from and informing you. No one person is "the teacher," and no one person is "the learner." This interaction is completely different than what Paul is describing in his pastoral epistles.

Is it not always good to affirm what God has affirmed? God has clearly laid out the pattern for church governance; his authority, not man’s, is behind that pattern. (Maybe I don't understand your question here.)
You mention God's authority is implied but as far as you mentioned the only permission is given by the congregation. Do you assume that what the congregation chooses must be God's Will?

Yes, because this is the way he has designed the process to work (as described in the epistles).

You have never seen a congregation choosing a bad pastor?

Not in any Baptist church of which I've been a member. Undoubtedly, this has happened before. In that case, there are measures taken (written in the church consitution after the pattern described in Scripture) to remove the man from the pastorate after it is clear to everyone that the man doesn't meet the correct qualifications. There was once a situation (when I was a member of a Nazarene congregation) when the pastor disqualified himself from ministry by not meeting the qualifications laid out in Scripture. Our congregation sorrowfully removed him when he would not repent. Edited by Annie
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Yes. that's the verse I quoted a few posts back.

A Bishop is......a bishop..... a pastor is a pastor...things that are different are not the same. You keep saying the bishop is a pastor. the King James don't say it brotherman. Now before you jump on what you don't agree on here's where we DO agree:::
The other verse you and I quoted (1 Timothy 2:12) should answer the OP's question for all of it....a woman is not to usurp authority over the man, no matter what a "bishop: or "pastor" is.


Actually, the only time the word "pastor" occurs in the bible, as far as I can find, is:

Jer 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

Hardly enough to build a doctrine upon.
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You say a mother is to instruct her children but you prevent her from teaching them. How is that compatible?
How about people with cognitive disabilities?
Do you assume men always know more than women, or that women cannot teach men even if they know more than them?
I am not arguing with Him, I am arguing with you... I trust God ... not men. And as St Paul said:
2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
1 Tess. 5:21
Critically examine everything, hold on to the good.

How am I preventing a mother from teaching her children?

What about people with cognitive disabilities?

I didn't assume anything about teaching, I posted what God says about the matter. If you don't like what God said, then you need to address Him about that.
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So basically you are saying that at a designated point in time your knowledge curve surpasses your mother's and that's when you become a man?
I didn't imply that she was the leader of a church, I mentioned the fact that it was a deaconess. I am not assuming these passages as literal, I am questioning whether we as Christians understand them correctly according to the same standards we apply to the rest of the Scriptures.

Thank you all very much.
One in Christ,
D


It’s so difficult for me to follow/discuss a lot of questions so I’ll stick to this one. There is a time when a boy becomes a man. That timing may be different from boy to boy. Mothers are not lacking in wisdom after the boy becomes a man. As a man I have sought out my mother’s wisdom over the years for many things. I have not sought out her wisdom for how I am to respond to God’s word and how should apply to me as a man.

This young man’s knowledge may or may not have exceeded the mother’s own knowledge however; the boy (now man) is expected to seek God through God’s word and I think I can demonstrate why men must be taught by men.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

As a man I sought after Godly things as they pertained to a man. 1 Corinthians 13 presents an important aspect of a man. Men have trouble with love toward others. A man has to be instructed by God’s word to love his wife. Your mother can’t instruct you in how to recognize this weakness, how as a man to be aware of it, and how to apply God’s truth to overcome it. A mother or a woman doesn’t have this knowledge because she is not a man. Neither is the woman Sunday school teacher able to help you other than to say, “You need to speak with your dad, a deacon, or the pastor.” Men have severe blind spots and many times don’t realize they are missing a wife’s need or how they are missing a need of family. Ephesians 5:21-33 makes it clear men have a problem in the love area. The majority of the text is to men. I hope I’ve made sense.

To be a man wholly I/we can not receive instruction from a woman, even his own mother. The new man must receive wisdom from other men who understand the weaknesses of the flesh and how to apply Bible truth and victory over our nature.

I've never participated in a church service where a woman lead. Also, I'm not saying women should teach women in the church other than Sunday school and in strictly women’s groups. The scriptures are clear as others have pointed out. God didn’t make the woman to take on the responsibility of leading the church.
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It’s so difficult for me to follow/discuss a lot of questions so I’ll stick to this one. There is a time when a boy becomes a man. That timing may be different from boy to boy. Mothers are not lacking in wisdom after the boy becomes a man. As a man I have sought out my mother’s wisdom over the years for many things. I have not sought out her wisdom for how I am to respond to God’s word and how should apply to me as a man.

This young man’s knowledge may or may not have exceeded the mother’s own knowledge however; the boy (now man) is expected to seek God through God’s word and I think I can demonstrate why men must be taught by men.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

As a man I sought after Godly things as they pertained to a man. 1 Corinthians 13 presents an important aspect of a man. Men have trouble with love toward others. A man has to be instructed by God’s word to love his wife. Your mother can’t instruct you in how to recognize this weakness, how as a man to be aware of it, and how to apply God’s truth to overcome it. A mother or a woman doesn’t have this knowledge because she is not a man. Neither is the woman Sunday school teacher able to help you other than to say, “You need to speak with your dad, a deacon, or the pastor.” Men have severe blind spots and many times don’t realize they are missing a wife’s need or how they are missing a need of family. Ephesians 5:21-33 makes it clear men have a problem in the love area. The majority of the text is to men. I hope I’ve made sense.

To be a man wholly I/we can not receive instruction from a woman, even his own mother. The new man must receive wisdom from other men who understand the weaknesses of the flesh and how to apply Bible truth and victory over our nature.

I've never participated in a church service where a woman lead. Also, I'm not saying women should teach women in the church other than Sunday school and in strictly women’s groups. The scriptures are clear as others have pointed out. God didn’t make the woman to take on the responsibility of leading the church.


I never have either.

But as a young boy we had women teachers, teaching classes that had both boys & girls. Yet as I understand it women can teach children of both sexes.

I suppose its hard to find a church today that does not have a woman in a prominent position within the church. Many women are just not happy with the role God has given them, thus they seek that which they should not, trying to boss the men.
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Wow... a lot of people... thanks for the contributions by the way.
I apologize for not quoting each and everyone as if I would my post would probably be too big to fit...
I will address the arguments and questions each by post (some people may get separate replies I'm sorry)

@salyan
I think I understood most of what you meant, although it still strikes me as odd that if the office of elder and pastor are the same, why is there a distinction of their roles for Baptists? Or maybe I misunderstood the whole differentiation.
I also have other questions about the differentiation you make between men and child but maybe they are unimportant. I am 26 years old. I do read the Bible everyday and I study it carefully, but that doesn't mean I don't ask my girlfriend for her understanding of some passages, especially because we are from different churches and I want to build a family where we are both "rowing in the same direction"... (towards God) I do so also because she has studied theology and can help me understand from an exegetical point of view. I don't see it as she taking authority away from me or anything like that. I also see that some Baptists here in Germany don't allow women to serve as pastors but allow them to be missionaries which for me seems a double standard. Is that how Independent Baptists see it?

@Annie,
Please see previous comment... as I think it also speaks to what you said. Strange though that you did not answer the whole question... People with disabilities? I'd also like to add the question of cases where the husband goes against the commandments or sins... Have you experienced that?

@swathdiver
I think it's not the translation that we were discussing as in the KJV and several other translations (even the Vulgate) do not translate it as a literal deaconess, but as a servant. It was regarding the original Greek word.

@Jerry80871892
Thank you very much for the links. I will have to read that tomorrow (its already 2AM) and will get back to you if I have any question.

@heartstrings
Hi...
I don't think you've been talking to me but thanks for the understanding. I am quite the skeptic and a lot of people don't understand why. If you have anything particular that you would like to ask me please go ahead.

@Annie,
I don't believe that the word "elder" has any gender associated to it. And if it is such a broad word for you why do you use it associated to an office?
What kind of reading do you mean? I don't have a lot of money... maybe you could point out a good resource for this?

I understand what you mean... although I do not believe it to be the correct interpretation. Can I ask an honest question? Do women vote on who the next Pastor will be?

Why would people that were not called be nominated at all?

I understand. Thank you.

Why is the situation so different? I am not accusing you of doing anything bad. I thank you that you are teaching me so much. I did not know a lot of what you said.

I am not sure that the epistles describe a voting system... but I get your main point. I wouldn't say I agree with it completely... but it makes sense.

Your last testimony would be good to start more questions... but I have already so many on my plate. It will have to suffice for now.

@John81,
In the same phrase you said that women were supposed to teach only other women and then that they were supposed to teach their children, but it also raised the question to their male children.
About people with cognitive disabilities I meant to ask if the same standard applies to them. Should a woman refrain from teaching a man with cognitive disabilities?
As I didn't see any scriptural passage in your post I assumed you were interpreting Scripture, which might not be the same as you posting what God said or did not say.

@1Tim115
I apologize if this sounds insensitive but do you mean that what mothers teach us are "childish" things?
Why does talking to a woman about what she needs seem less reasonable? Are we supposed to "shove" love to our wives? What about being charitable? I always though it was God who made us "whole" and not what other men teach. Would you care to share how did you get that understanding?
Also, I did not purport to say that women should lead the church. I don't even assume men lead the Church. As far as I know the Church is lead by the Holy Spirit... not men. I asked about offices in the Baptist Church. But I guess my question was ill conceived...

Thank you everyone.
One in Christ,
D

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@1Tim115
I apologize if this sounds insensitive but do you mean that what mothers teach us are "childish" things?
Not at all, there is a time when God requires we seek to worship him "in spirit and in truth" as an individual taking responsibility for ourselves in seeking to grow closer.
Why does talking to a woman about what she needs seem less reasonable?
Sure it would be reasonable and if you read deeply into the Ephesians reference you can see it set forth.
Are we supposed to "shove" love to our wives?
Love doesn't come easy to the nature of men, again see Ehesians chapter 5.
What about being charitable?
I believe God teaches it in the Bible, how about you?
I always though it was God who made us "whole" and not what other men teach. Would you care to share how did you get that understanding?
To be a man wholly I/we can not receive instruction from a woman, even his own mother. The new man must receive wisdom from other men who understand the weaknesses of the flesh and how to apply Bible truth and victory over our nature.

We wouldn't want to reject the wisdom of the counselors...
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Proverbs 12:8 A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.

...just of few of many that deal with wisdom, knowledge, and instruction. It's all about Godly men pointing me to Bible truth.


Also, I did not purport to say that women should lead the church. I don't even assume men lead the Church. As far as I know the Church is lead by the Holy Spirit... not men.

Yes, and God uses Spirit filled men to undersheperd the local flock...
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
...baby Christians are of course on a path toward full growth which, includes me.

I asked about offices in the Baptist Church. But I guess my question was ill conceived...
Yes you did. In an effort to give a fair, honest, and full reply from scripture about the office of a pastor (bisop-husband of one wife, masculine noun) for you, you placed a few question marks in your reply. Maybe they were errors on your part?

Possibly you lost your place, like I said I would if I tried to discuss multiple questions. Here are yours...





...however, if you have no further questions about this and I've answered this question for you I'll move on.

Thank you everyone.
One in Christ,
D
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Not at all, there is a time when God requires we seek to worship him "in spirit and in truth" as an individual taking responsibility for ourselves in seeking to grow closer.

You do know that there are people who die before reaching adulthood or that live a long life as mentally disabled right?
If I believe in Jesus as my Lord and God and repent from Sin, what else am I supposed to do?

Sure it would be reasonable and if you read deeply into the Ephesians reference you can see it set forth.

My understanding of Ephesians is that it talks of the "why" but it doesn't specify the "how". As far as I know women are different and feel loved by different kinds of actions, so I usually ask them before trying to force them doing something they do not like.(Example... my bad sense of humour)

Love doesn't come easy to the nature of men, again see Ehesians chapter 5.

I did not mean that it is...

I believe God teaches it in the Bible, how about you?

Charitable can mean going hiking to one person or giving money to another... that was what I was talking about.

To be a man wholly I/we can not receive instruction from a woman, even his own mother. The new man must receive wisdom from other men who understand the weaknesses of the flesh and how to apply Bible truth and victory over our nature.

We wouldn't want to reject the wisdom of the counselors...
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Proverbs 12:8 A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.

...just of few of many that deal with wisdom, knowledge, and instruction. It's all about Godly men pointing me to Bible truth.

The passages you showed did not say that you should learn from men... but from the Bible. So if a man points to the Bible it is somehow different than if a woman points to the Bible?

Yes, and God uses Spirit filled men to undersheperd the local flock...
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
...baby Christians are of course on a path toward full growth which, includes me.

Welll... we do know that some of those were also females (at the very least the prophets)... why do you assume that all of them must be men from that Passage? I don't think that passage defends the men only offices. Or the leading of the Church by men. It talks about edifying the body of Christ... not leading it. Right?

Yes you did. In an effort to give a fair, honest, and full reply from scripture about the office of a pastor (bisop-husband of one wife, masculine noun) for you, you placed a few question marks in your reply. Maybe they were errors on your part?

Possibly you lost your place, like I said I would if I tried to discuss multiple questions. Here are yours...

...however, if you have no further questions about this and I've answered this question for you I'll move on.

I just think that I assumed some things from your descriptions that maybe I shouldn't have. Probably the most pressing question that comes to mind is "so what?" but I don't want to seem rude.
I mean... my girlfriend obviously believes she is already saved. Even if I tell her that she is not following God's Word would that change anything? I cannot "make" her "unsaved"...
This applies to pretty much every other thing that one considers to be sin. I myself am a sinner and have sinned every day of my life... Who am I to tell someone they have misunderstood the Scripture? I question everything because by only Faith is in Christ... not my understanding of Him or if my relationship to Him is as good or better than some other. Who am I to judge? "The Lord is my judge"...
One in Christ,
D
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@John81,
In the same phrase you said that women were supposed to teach only other women and then that they were supposed to teach their children, but it also raised the question to their male children.
About people with cognitive disabilities I meant to ask if the same standard applies to them. Should a woman refrain from teaching a man with cognitive disabilities?
As I didn't see any scriptural passage in your post I assumed you were interpreting Scripture, which might not be the same as you posting what God said or did not say.


Women are not to teach men, Scripture doesn't say they are not t teach children, and it's clear they are to teach their own children.

Whether a man has cognitive disabilities or not isn't a factor, Scripture is clear that women are not to teach men.

Verses applying to this have been posted several times, why continue posting them over and over again? Read First Timothy.
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Women are not to teach men, Scripture doesn't say they are not t teach children, and it's clear they are to teach their own children.

Whether a man has cognitive disabilities or not isn't a factor, Scripture is clear that women are not to teach men.

Verses applying to this have been posted several times, why continue posting them over and over again? Read First Timothy.

That is because they were interpreted under different assumptions. I want to understand what is it that tells us to read it literaly...
Jesus also says that if my hand is the cause of sin I should cut it out... but I haven't... or maybe I should?
It's not because I am stubborn it is because it doesn't make sense to me. I am asking for help...
One in Christ,
D
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That is because they were interpreted under different assumptions. I want to understand what is it that tells us to read it literaly...
Jesus also says that if my hand is the cause of sin I should cut it out... but I haven't... or maybe I should?
It's not because I am stubborn it is because it doesn't make sense to me. I am asking for help...
One in Christ,
D

Context. Under the context of what Jesus was saying it's clear that He was pointing out that even losing body parts in this life is preferable to having all our body parts suffering eternal torment in hell.

In the case of the verses related to women teachers, pastors and such, the context is of direct instruction for the same. The verses are very clear that only men are to lead in the church, only men are to teach other men. This is the direct instruction of God for how the church is to be governed and run.
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Context. Under the context of what Jesus was saying it's clear that He was pointing out that even losing body parts in this life is preferable to having all our body parts suffering eternal torment in hell.

In the case of the verses related to women teachers, pastors and such, the context is of direct instruction for the same. The verses are very clear that only men are to lead in the church, only men are to teach other men. This is the direct instruction of God for how the church is to be governed and run.

Jesus doesn't say "losing" he actually says "cut it off". How do you know one is a direct instruction and the other one is not?
One in Christ,
D
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Jesus doesn't say "losing" he actually says "cut it off". How do you know one is a direct instruction and the other one is not?
One in Christ,
D

You seem to like repetition in all these posts. As I said, context. Elsewhere you rebuked a member for his lack of proper English grammar in posting. From what you posted there, that would leave us to believe you understand basic English concepts, such as context.

As I pointed out in another thread, unless or until you are born again in Christ, these other issues are of little matter. If you gain some understanding of this matter but are yet lost when you die or Christ returns, you will spend eternity in hell.
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