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Men and Women appart


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Where did "husband" come into question?

Bishop
Origin:
before 900; Middle English; Old English bisc ( e ) op < Vulgar Latin *ebiscopus, for Late Latin episcopus < Greek epískopos overseer, equivalent to epi- epi- + skopós watcher; see scope

Pastor
Origin:
1325–75; < Latin pāstor shepherd, literally, feeder, equivalent to pās-, base of pāscere to put to pasture, feed + -tor -tor; replacing Middle English pastour < Anglo-French

Elder
Origin:
before 900; Middle English; Old English eldra, comparative of eald old


The word "elder" in the King James was translated from the Greek word." Prebuteros"; the exact same word used for the "elder brother" in Luke 15, and for the "elders"(plural) in James 5:14 where they called for the "elders" of the church so if "elders" meant "pastors", how many 'pastors' did that church have? James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: I guess they called for the junior and senior pastors huh?


The OP asked about women in the pastorate. As Jerry said..."A pastor is to be a man, a woman cannot be the husband of one wife, so that in itself rules out women being pastor of a New Testament Church."
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1Ti 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Tit 1:6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

A pastor is to be a man, a woman cannot be the husband of one wife, so that in itself rules out women being pastor of a New Testament Church.

And of course there is this verse.
(1
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Yes. that's the verse I quoted a few posts back.

A Bishop is......a bishop..... a pastor is a pastor...things that are different are not the same. You keep saying the bishop is a pastor. the King James don't say it brotherman. Now before you jump on what you don't agree on here's where we DO agree:::
The other verse you and I quoted (1 Timothy 2:12) should answer the OP's question for all of it....a woman is not to usurp authority over the man, no matter what a "bishop: or "pastor" is.
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dskysmine, you are asking some good questions. Because Scripture so clearly prohibits women from holding the pastor/shepherd role within a local church, I believe that women should not seek those kinds of leadership positions. Does that mean that your girlfriend's master's in theolgy is useless? Not at all! If you read Titus 2, you will see how useful women can be in teaching and counseling other women. I have a ministry like that, and it is very fulfilling to serve within the role God has graciously given me.

Here are some Scriptures which deal with your question:

Genesis 2: The woman was clearly created to help the man, not the other way round.
Ephesians 5: The hierarchy is clearly spelled out here: the man/husband is head of the woman, and Christ is the head of the man, and God the Father is the head of Christ.
I Timothy 2: A woman is not to teach in church, but to remain in silence during the teaching time.

If you read carefully through the New Testament, you'll begin to see the theme developing along these lines; these passages are just scratching the surface of the issue.
Titus 2: A woman is commanded to teach and mentor other women in the church.

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As here everyone addresses the same subject I will not quote each and every one and reply to each, but I will reply to the arguments.
First of all there is a question of Literary interpretation. As someone discussed, the Bible speaks about bishopry and deacony in the verses you mentioned.
While the first does not exist in the Baptist Churches, the second does (as far as I understood from what you described). There's also the question that in KJV version (which seems the one most of you use) there is a mention of a female deaconess by Paul himself (I think we all know what I am talking about), while it does also say that a deacon has to be the husband of one wife (to be discussed further).
As for authority, I always assumed that pastors did not have authority in the Baptist Churches, but maybe someone would care to explain to me what authority has a pastor in a Baptist Church and from whom is it given?
As for "teaching", I find it hard to believe that every Baptist assumes that women cannot teach anything to men, as after all, we all had mothers....
One in Christ,
D

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As here everyone addresses the same subject I will not quote each and every one and reply to each, but I will reply to the arguments.
First of all there is a question of Literary interpretation. As someone discussed, the Bible speaks about bishopry and deacony in the verses you mentioned.
While the first does not exist in the Baptist Churches, the second does (as far as I understood from what you described). There's also the question that in KJV version (which seems the one most of you use) there is a mention of a female deaconess by Paul himself (I think we all know what I am talking about), while it does also say that a deacon has to be the husband of one wife (to be discussed further).
As for authority, I always assumed that pastors did not have authority in the Baptist Churches, but maybe someone would care to explain to me what authority has a pastor in a Baptist Church and from whom is it given?
As for "teaching", I find it hard to believe that every Baptist assumes that women cannot teach anything to men, as after all, we all had mothers....
One in Christ,
D

Romans 16
Just a word of caution against making a practice of faith or creating a doctrine from one scripture reference. I learned a great deal from my mother but, when a boy reaches manhood she cannot assume the responsibility of teaching spiritual things from the Bible. The same with Sunday School teachers, they can be and are Godly women. It does not line up with the preponderance of scripture as shown above for a woman to teach a man.

Edited to add: One woman who aided Paul and possibly led women at a previous church would not support having a woman or any woman becoming the leader of a church. Paul didn't say, "Brethern, here is your new bishop, pastor, or deacon." He only said to receive her and assist her in business needs. Edited by 1Tim115
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Romans 16
Just a word of caution against making a practice of faith or creating a doctrine from one scripture reference. I learned a great deal from my mother but, when a boy reaches manhood she cannot assume the responsibility of teaching spiritual things from the Bible. The same with Sunday School teachers, they can be and are Godly women. It does not line up with the preponderance of scripture as shown above for a woman to teach a man.

Edited to add: One woman who aided Paul and possibly led women at a previous church would not support having a woman or any woman becoming the leader of a church. Paul didn't say, "Brethern, here is your new bishop, pastor, or deacon." He only said to receive her and assist her in business needs.

That is correct. There is no "deaconess".

Scripture is very clear that no woman is to hold any position of pastor, elder, deacon, or any position teaching men or having authority over men.

As Annie has pointed out, women are called upon to teach and learn from one another, as well as to instruct and raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

God has assigned specific duties and tasks to men only and has given other duties and tasks to women.

It's not up to us, God's creation, to argue with Him over how He has established things. We are to trust God and obey Him. If we are Christians, obeying God should be something we desire.
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As here everyone addresses the same subject I will not quote each and every one and reply to each, but I will reply to the arguments.
First of all there is a question of Literary interpretation. As someone discussed, the Bible speaks about bishopry and deacony in the verses you mentioned.
While the first does not exist in the Baptist Churches, the second does (as far as I understood from what you described). There's also the question that in KJV version (which seems the one most of you use) there is a mention of a female deaconess by Paul himself (I think we all know what I am talking about), while it does also say that a deacon has to be the husband of one wife (to be discussed further).
As for authority, I always assumed that pastors did not have authority in the Baptist Churches, but maybe someone would care to explain to me what authority has a pastor in a Baptist Church and from whom is it given?
As for "teaching", I find it hard to believe that every Baptist assumes that women cannot teach anything to men, as after all, we all had mothers....
One in Christ,
D

Actually, the "bishopry" does exist in the Baptist church. The title we have for it is "pastor," which helps people to avoid confusion of this role with the modern "bishop" of the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican churches. Baptist church polity is as follows. The church is led/shepherded by the pastor (what the KJV calls the bishop). His role is to preach and teach and to care for his flock. He is assisted in some cases by a pastoral staff, which, depending on the size of the church, might be full-time, paid positions or simply laymen who assist the pastor in assigned areas, such as hospital visits, leading a youth group, etc. Also assisting the pastor and congregation are deacons, which are elected by the congregation for terms of determined length. Baptists consider the biblical term "elders" to be roughly synonymous with these kinds of older, experienced men in the church who assist with its oversight. All of these positions, including the senior pastor, are determined by the congregation. For example, when a church is without a pastor for some reason, a "pulpit committee" is formed from members of the congregation to seek out a new pastor. Names are gathered and sorted, various men are considered, and eventually the entire congregation votes to install or not install a candidate.

This is how it works in an independent Baptist church; perhaps in a church affiliated with a Baptist denomination it may look a little different. But generally, Baptist churches are self-governing, in that they choose their own leaders, after the pattern of the early, New Testament churches. The pastor's authority to preach, teach, and shepherd the flock comes from God himself, and is affirmed by the congregation.

Some Baptist churches do have deaconesses, or unmarried female assistants to deacons. If you study the meaning of the term "deacon," you will realize that this is not a teaching role, but a serving role. There is no biblical prohibition for women to serve in their churches. (To my knowledge, the term "deaconess" does not appear in Scripture; correct me if I am wrong. I am not KJVO.)

Yes, we all had mothers who taught us. But we are talking of roles in the church, not in the family. God in his grace has said much about both, and it seems very clear in Scripture that women are not to teach men in the church. Again, application of this principle will vary. (At what age does one become a "man"? etc.) Edited by Annie
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Romans 16
Just a word of caution against making a practice of faith or creating a doctrine from one scripture reference. I learned a great deal from my mother but, when a boy reaches manhood she cannot assume the responsibility of teaching spiritual things from the Bible. The same with Sunday School teachers, they can be and are Godly women. It does not line up with the preponderance of scripture as shown above for a woman to teach a man.

Edited to add: One woman who aided Paul and possibly led women at a previous church would not support having a woman or any woman becoming the leader of a church. Paul didn't say, "Brethern, here is your new bishop, pastor, or deacon." He only said to receive her and assist her in business needs.

So basically you are saying that at a designated point in time your knowledge curve surpasses your mother's and that's when you become a man?
I didn't imply that she was the leader of a church, I mentioned the fact that it was a deaconess. I am not assuming these passages as literal, I am questioning whether we as Christians understand them correctly according to the same standards we apply to the rest of the Scriptures.


That is correct. There is no "deaconess".

Scripture is very clear that no woman is to hold any position of pastor, elder, deacon, or any position teaching men or having authority over men.

As Annie has pointed out, women are called upon to teach and learn from one another, as well as to instruct and raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

God has assigned specific duties and tasks to men only and has given other duties and tasks to women.

It's not up to us, God's creation, to argue with Him over how He has established things. We are to trust God and obey Him. If we are Christians, obeying God should be something we desire.

You say a mother is to instruct her children but you prevent her from teaching them. How is that compatible?
How about people with cognitive disabilities?
Do you assume men always know more than women, or that women cannot teach men even if they know more than them?
I am not arguing with Him, I am arguing with you... I trust God ... not men. And as St Paul said:
2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
1 Tess. 5:21
Critically examine everything, hold on to the good.

Actually, the "bishopry" does exist in the Baptist church. The title we have for it is "pastor," which helps people to avoid confusion of this role with the modern "bishop" of the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican churches. Baptist church polity is as follows. The church is led/shepherded by the pastor (what the KJV calls the bishop). His role is to preach and teach and to care for his flock. He is assisted in some cases by a pastoral staff, which, depending on the size of the church, might be full-time, paid positions or simply laymen who assist the pastor in assigned areas, such as hospital visits, leading a youth group, etc. Also assisting the pastor and congregation are deacons, which are elected by the congregation for terms of determined length. Baptists consider the biblical term "elders" to be roughly synonymous with these kinds of older, experienced men in the church who assist with its oversight. All of these positions, including the senior pastor, are determined by the congregation. For example, when a church is without a pastor for some reason, a "pulpit committee" is formed from members of the congregation to seek out a new pastor. Names are gathered and sorted, various men are considered, and eventually the entire congregation votes to install or not install a candidate.

This is how it works in an independent Baptist church; perhaps in a church affiliated with a Baptist denomination it may look a little different. But generally, Baptist churches are self-governing, in that they choose their own leaders, after the pattern of the early, New Testament churches. The pastor's authority to preach, teach, and shepherd the flock comes from God himself, and is affirmed by the congregation.

Some Baptist churches do have deaconesses, or unmarried female assistants to deacons. If you study the meaning of the term "deacon," you will realize that this is not a teaching role, but a serving role. There is no biblical prohibition for women to serve in their churches. (To my knowledge, the term "deaconess" does not appear in Scripture; correct me if I am wrong. I am not KJVO.)

Yes, we all had mothers, who taught us. But we are talking of church roles, not family roles. God in his grace has said much about both, and it seems very clear in Scripture that women are not to teach men in the church. Again, application of this principle will vary. (At what age does one become a "man"? etc.)

You dropped a Scriptural Office just because you didn't want to be "confused" with the other religions and denominations?... I though Baptists were supposed to follow the Scripture closely.
Why do elders have to be male?
When you say "in the church" you mean exclusively the building where Baptists meet? If not, please explain...
I didn't understand the process for the "election" of the pastor. "Names are gathered" seems like as vague expression as "things happen". Who are the candidates? How do they become candidates?
What do you mean with "teaching"? Humans can learn in a multitude of ways.
I don't understand the "authority" part as well... If God gives the authority, why does the congregation need to affirm it? Were there not prophets that disagreed with Israel and their ways?

Thank you all very much.
One in Christ,
D
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You dropped a Scriptural Office just because you didn't want to be "confused" with the other religions and denominations?... I though Baptists were supposed to follow the Scripture closely.
No, perhaps I need to clarify. We did not drop it exclusively for that reason. The terms "bishop" and "pastor" seem to be used interchangeably in Scripture (and in early church history...in Eusebius, for example). The roles of the "bishop" and "pastor" are the same: to oversee and shepherd their local churches. Over time, the term "pastor" became commonly used in certain Protestant circles, and the term "bishop" was retained by the Roman Catholics and Protestant churches which borrow heavily from Catholic tradition. I merely commented (or meant to, anyway) that the term "pastor" is useful for identifying Baptists (as well as other denominations) as different than those churches.
Why do elders have to be male?
Have you read anything about the early church understanding of elders? Have you read any of Eusebius or Bede? What is the idea you get when you see the term in Scripture, and read it in context with other Scriptures?
When you say "in the church" you mean exclusively the building where Baptists meet? If not, please explain...
No. There are clearly two meanings of the word "church" in Scripture: 1: a local gathering of believers (not just Baptists) and 2: all believers around the world who belong to Christ (his "Church") The instructions to Timothy and Titus (two pastors) as well as the instructions to the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, etc., are obviously for their local assemblies...how they should be governed, the kinds of people who qualify for leadership, what the roles of women are to be in those assemblies. These passages are not addressing the "church in general," but local assemblies which meet regularly to observe the Lord's Day, Lord's Table, etc. So, these are the patterns given in Scripture for how a local body of believers is to be governed, shepherded, etc. (Of course, there are references to the "general church" in these epistles as well, but the guidelines for deacons, pastors, etc., are obviously for local bodies.)
I didn't understand the process for the "election" of the pastor. "Names are gathered" seems like as vague expression as "things happen". Who are the candidates? How do they become candidates?
I'm sure it happens differently in every church when it comes down to details, since the details aren’t really spelled out in Scripture. This process is happening right now in the church in which I grew up. I'll try to describe it for you. A pulpit committee is formed by the congregation for the purpose of dedicating themselves to looking for a new pastor. Any member of the congregation may submit nominations (from among the local church group, or from outside the group) to the pulpit committee. Also, the committee makes contact with various sources (like universities, other churches, etc.) to see if there is anyone who is looking for a pastorate that might be a good fit for this congregation. All nominations are vetted...That is, the pulpit committee searches out references for each name, conducts interviews, looks into the men’s backgrounds, etc. During this time, some nominees may choose to remove their names. At this point (at the church I referenced), there are three men whose names remain in nomination. The pulpit committee is getting ready to announce their findings to the congregation and continue the process of determining who would best fit the office of pastor. These proceedings occur slowly, carefully, and with unity in the church body.
What do you mean with "teaching"? Humans can learn in a multitude of ways.
I would imagine I mean the same thing when I say “teaching” as you do when you use the word. In Scripture, in the local church context, “teaching” means formally instructing the assembled body of believers in the word. The Bible says that a woman is not to teach in this context, but is to sit in silence.
I don't understand the "authority" part as well... If God gives the authority, why does the congregation need to affirm it? Were there not prophets that disagreed with Israel and their ways?
Is it not always good to affirm what God has affirmed? God has clearly laid out the pattern for church governance; his authority, not man’s, is behind that pattern. (Maybe I don't understand your question here.) Edited by Annie
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So basically you are saying that at a designated point in time your knowledge curve surpasses your mother's and that's when you become a man?
I didn't imply that she was the leader of a church, I mentioned the fact that it was a deaconess. I am not assuming these passages as literal, I am questioning whether we as Christians understand them correctly according to the same standards we apply to the rest of the Scriptures.

You say a mother is to instruct her children but you prevent her from teaching them. How is that compatible? How about people with cognitive disabilities? Do you assume men always know more than women, or that women cannot teach men even if they know more than them?

You dropped a Scriptural Office just because you didn't want to be "confused" with the other religions and denominations?... I though Baptists were supposed to follow the Scripture closely. Why do elders have to be male? When you say "in the church" you mean exclusively the building where Baptists meet? If not, please explain... I didn't understand the process for the "election" of the pastor. "Names are gathered" seems like as vague expression as "things happen". Who are the candidates? How do they become candidates?
What do you mean with "teaching"? Humans can learn in a multitude of ways.
I don't understand the "authority" part as well... If God gives the authority, why does the congregation need to affirm it? Were there not prophets that disagreed with Israel and their ways?


Wow, you have a lot of detailed questions! You’ve received a lot of good answers thus far. Please understand though, D, that some of what you are asking refers to events that we don’t necessarily have clear instructions in Scripture for. By this, I’m referring to the practices used to call a pastor. Some churches are planted by a missionary/pastor – he then remains as the shepherd of that congregation. Some churches are planted by a missionary church planter who then turns the congregation over to a pastor. Sometimes churches lose a pastor and need a new overseer – that’s when the process of electing a pastor might come into play. And due to the fact that these IFB churches are INDEPENDENT – no two will work the same way. So you are not going to get answers that go across the board, as you could from a denominational church.

Most everyone I know would believe that a man must be called of God to be a pastor. We wouldn’t choose a man to be a pastor who does not believe that God has called him to that service, and who does not meet the Scriptural qualifications. Past that, the process used to discover who God would have serve as pastor to a particular church may vary. ‘Names are gathered’ means that the church, church men, or a committee (depending on how that particular church works) will seek out the names of various men that are called to be pastors but not yet serving in that role – maybe they’re in training, or serving as a junior pastor in another church. Maybe they are already known by those searching, or they might be recommended by mutual friends. Those ‘seeking names’ will find out if the doctrine of these men agree with the doctrine of the church (because, again, although we should all believe the same thing – we are human and we don’t!), if the candidate is interested in serving at the new church, if they’re qualified to serve according to Scripture, and probably some other information that I don’t know about! J The men may then be asked to come and preach at the church & meet the people, and the church family – with MUCH PRAYER – will (or should) seek God’s leading on who He would have to be their next pastor. They would then vote – looking for a unanimous decision – on who to call, trusting that God has led them individually and as a congregation to the right man. That’s how it might look in one church, but again – these details of calling a pastor are not necessarily delineated in Scripture. Scripture gives us the qualifications of a pastor and instructs us to seek God in prayer for His leading.

We have not dropped any Scriptural office – simply chosen not to use a controversial name. I believe that there are two offices in the church – pastor/bishop/overseer/elder/shepherd and deacon. As you can see, the first office has many name – describing its many roles – but is only one office. If a congregation is large enough to need several pastors, there must, to keep things being done decently and in order, be a senior pastor. Perhaps that is what the Jerusalem church would have called a bishop. (Some churches may choose to use the terms pastor & elders instead of senior pastor & pastors – I’m not personally familiar with any such, so I can’t comment on them.)

As the office of elder is synonymous with that of pastor, the elders must be male for the same reason the pastor must be. “For I suffer not a women to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.” It is not because we are inferior creatures that cannot hear the Spirit of God teaching us Himself – such a false idea would be disproved by the verse that states that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female. It is not because women are incapable of preparing or delivering sermons – men and women both possess strengths and weaknesses in this area. God has simply placed the man in the position of spiritual authority. In 1 Timothy 2, He relates this instruction to the original order of creation. God has created the man to be the spiritual head in the home and the church, and the woman to let him be! The men need to obey God and lead – and the women need to obey God and submit to that leadership.

Now, we are not suggesting here that all men will be pastors/deacons in the church – regardless of capability or cognitive ability! God calls and equips those He would have lead. But, in accordance with His Word (for He will never contradict His Word – He cannot lie!), He will only call and equip those that meet His requirements. (1 Timothy 3) The church needs to be sure not to accept counterfeit callings – people who might say they are called to preach but don’t meet those requirements. Based on the Word of God, I believe this included any women. That’s not a very popular statement nowadays – but God’s Word doesn’t change to accommodate feminism! ;)

Mothers have authority to teach their children in the home, but they do not have authority to lead men in the church. When children have grown to become men, they are rarely in the home and do not get taught by their parents in quite the same fashion (I’m not saying they do not continue to learn from their parents, or that they should not respect their counsel, but it’s not the same as when they were small.). And what if a mother were to take a teaching role in the church that included teaching men? Her own grown sons may be part of that class – but so would other men. Even if it were alright for her to teach her own sons in the context of this position of church authority, it would not be appropriate for her to teach other men. Such a situation would thus not work.

I’ve saved my favorite question for last! I love the reference to Phoebe. “I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, a servant(diaconon) of the church which is at Cenchrea.” (Rom. 16:1) This is my desire – to be a servant of the church which is at… my town! J The word diaconeon is translated into English as servant. Deacon comes from the same root – thus some church think that female deacons – or servants of the church – are acceptable. However, Paul is not ascribing any authority to Phoebe in this passage – merely honoring her by mentioning the extreme level of service she gave her local congregation. When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see from Acts & Timothy that deacons are appointed as sub-officers in the church to take care of the practical jobs that need to bed done. We see from Titus that a women is not to have authority over the men in the church body – so much for holding church office! We see again from Timothy that a deacon must be the husband of one wife – and we even have specific qualifications given for his wife! Phoebe was not a deaconess in the modern sense of the word – she was a diaconeon – a servant of the church, but not one maintaining an official office or position.

(I see Annie beat me to respond - guess I'm duplicating some of her responses. Hopefully we are in agreement! ;)) Edited by salyan
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You say a mother is to instruct her children but you prevent her from teaching them. How is that compatible? How about people with cognitive disabilities? Do you assume men always know more than women, or that women cannot teach men even if they know more than them?

I'm sorry...I don't mean to pile on, but I must have missed this question before. No one is suggesting that a woman cannot teach her children, especially since Scripture says just the opposite. Her role within the home is a teaching role. But her role in the context of the local assembly of believers is a supportive, serving role, not a teaching role.

The authority for teaching is not based on superior cognitive ability or surpassing knowledge. It's based on Scripture alone. God has given the authority to teach in the church to men. It's not a matter of anyone being "superior," but of everyone living out their God-given roles in the church and home.

Here is a scenario to (maybe) help you understand...Let's say that I'm the vice president of XYZ corporation, and that several department heads in that corporation report to me and are responsible to follow the directives I send their way. I am "under" the president and "over" everyone else. Would I, the vice president of XYZ corporation, with all of my knowledge, administrative skills, and winning personality, be received very well if one day I decided to start giving directives to the local McDonald's fast food restaurant employees, and expected all of those employees to start reporting to me when those directives were carried out? No, because that's not my role at McDonald's. My role at McDonald's is "customer." Different place, different role.

My roles at home are "wife" and "mother." My roles at church are "learner" and "servant" when it comes to the general assembly and "teacher" when it comes to children and the "younger women" (Titus 2). Edited by Annie
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It's good to see Daniel and others like him searching for the truth. However, using corrupt translations leads to adopting corrupt doctrines and heresy. It is common knowledge for post-moderns/modern-charismatics/liberals to make Phoebe a Deacon and that's because their translation was rotton to the core from the very beginning in Alexandria, Egypt and made worse by the Godless socialists, Wescott and Hortt which all modern translations base their texts on the works of these two men. Same for lady preachers and all the other heresies that the evangelicals have adopted.

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Wow, you have a lot of detailed questions! You’ve received a lot of good answers thus far. Please understand though, D, that some of what you are asking refers to events that we don’t necessarily have clear instructions in Scripture for. By this, I’m referring to the practices used to call a pastor. Some churches are planted by a missionary/pastor – he then remains as the shepherd of that congregation. Some churches are planted by a missionary church planter who then turns the congregation over to a pastor. Sometimes churches lose a pastor and need a new overseer – that’s when the process of electing a pastor might come into play. And due to the fact that these IFB churches are INDEPENDENT – no two will work the same way. So you are not going to get answers that go across the board, as you could from a denominational church.

Most everyone I know would believe that a man must be called of God to be a pastor. We wouldn’t choose a man to be a pastor who does not believe that God has called him to that service, and who does not meet the Scriptural qualifications. Past that, the process used to discover who God would have serve as pastor to a particular church may vary. ‘Names are gathered’ means that the church, church men, or a committee (depending on how that particular church works) will seek out the names of various men that are called to be pastors but not yet serving in that role – maybe they’re in training, or serving as a junior pastor in another church. Maybe they are already known by those searching, or they might be recommended by mutual friends. Those ‘seeking names’ will find out if the doctrine of these men agree with the doctrine of the church (because, again, although we should all believe the same thing – we are human and we don’t!), if the candidate is interested in serving at the new church, if they’re qualified to serve according to Scripture, and probably some other information that I don’t know about! J The men may then be asked to come and preach at the church & meet the people, and the church family – with MUCH PRAYER – will (or should) seek God’s leading on who He would have to be their next pastor. They would then vote – looking for a unanimous decision – on who to call, trusting that God has led them individually and as a congregation to the right man. That’s how it might look in one church, but again – these details of calling a pastor are not necessarily delineated in Scripture. Scripture gives us the qualifications of a pastor and instructs us to seek God in prayer for His leading.

We have not dropped any Scriptural office – simply chosen not to use a controversial name. I believe that there are two offices in the church – pastor/bishop/overseer/elder/shepherd and deacon. As you can see, the first office has many name – describing its many roles – but is only one office. If a congregation is large enough to need several pastors, there must, to keep things being done decently and in order, be a senior pastor. Perhaps that is what the Jerusalem church would have called a bishop. (Some churches may choose to use the terms pastor & elders instead of senior pastor & pastors – I’m not personally familiar with any such, so I can’t comment on them.)

As the office of elder is synonymous with that of pastor, the elders must be male for the same reason the pastor must be. “For I suffer not a women to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.” It is not because we are inferior creatures that cannot hear the Spirit of God teaching us Himself – such a false idea would be disproved by the verse that states that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female. It is not because women are incapable of preparing or delivering sermons – men and women both possess strengths and weaknesses in this area. God has simply placed the man in the position of spiritual authority. In 1 Timothy 2, He relates this instruction to the original order of creation. God has created the man to be the spiritual head in the home and the church, and the woman to let him be! The men need to obey God and lead – and the women need to obey God and submit to that leadership.

Now, we are not suggesting here that all men will be pastors/deacons in the church – regardless of capability or cognitive ability! God calls and equips those He would have lead. But, in accordance with His Word (for He will never contradict His Word – He cannot lie!), He will only call and equip those that meet His requirements. (1 Timothy 3) The church needs to be sure not to accept counterfeit callings – people who might say they are called to preach but don’t meet those requirements. Based on the Word of God, I believe this included any women. That’s not a very popular statement nowadays – but God’s Word doesn’t change to accommodate feminism! ;)

Mothers have authority to teach their children in the home, but they do not have authority to lead men in the church. When children have grown to become men, they are rarely in the home and do not get taught by their parents in quite the same fashion (I’m not saying they do not continue to learn from their parents, or that they should not respect their counsel, but it’s not the same as when they were small.). And what if a mother were to take a teaching role in the church that included teaching men? Her own grown sons may be part of that class – but so would other men. Even if it were alright for her to teach her own sons in the context of this position of church authority, it would not be appropriate for her to teach other men. Such a situation would thus not work.

I’ve saved my favorite question for last! I love the reference to Phoebe. “I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, a servant(diaconon) of the church which is at Cenchrea.” (Rom. 16:1) This is my desire – to be a servant of the church which is at… my town! J The word diaconeon is translated into English as servant. Deacon comes from the same root – thus some church think that female deacons – or servants of the church – are acceptable. However, Paul is not ascribing any authority to Phoebe in this passage – merely honoring her by mentioning the extreme level of service she gave her local congregation. When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see from Acts & Timothy that deacons are appointed as sub-officers in the church to take care of the practical jobs that need to bed done. We see from Titus that a women is not to have authority over the men in the church body – so much for holding church office! We see again from Timothy that a deacon must be the husband of one wife – and we even have specific qualifications given for his wife! Phoebe was not a deaconess in the modern sense of the word – she was a diaconeon – a servant of the church, but not one maintaining an official office or position.

(I see Annie beat me to respond - guess I'm duplicating some of her responses. Hope we agree! ;))



If that is true, how many "pastors" did this church have?
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: James 5:14
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No, perhaps I need to clarify. We did not drop it exclusively for that reason. The terms "bishop" and "pastor" seem to be used interchangeably in Scripture (and in early church history...in Eusebius, for example). The roles of the "bishop" and "pastor" are the same: to oversee and shepherd their local churches. Over time, the term "pastor" became commonly used in certain Protestant circles, and the term "bishop" was retained by the Roman Catholics and Protestant churches which borrow heavily from Catholic tradition. I merely commented (or meant to, anyway) that the term "pastor" is useful for identifying Baptists (as well as other denominations) as different than those churches.

Ok. Point taken. I did not know they were used interchangeably.

Have you read anything about the early church understanding of elders? Have you read any of Eusebius or Bede? What is the idea you get when you see the term in Scripture, and read it in context with other Scriptures?

No. No. I don't actually know the term from Scripture... only from the Baptists. As far as I know from Greek the words that might relate are bishop, deacon or pastor... but in your church it seems that elders choose the pastors so there is a double office or some kind of thing like that.

No. There are clearly two meanings of the word "church" in Scripture: 1: a local gathering of believers (not just Baptists) and 2: all believers around the world who belong to Christ (his "Church") The instructions to Timothy and Titus (two pastors) as well as the instructions to the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, etc., are obviously for their local assemblies...how they should be governed, the kinds of people who qualify for leadership, what the roles of women are to be in those assemblies. These passages are not addressing the "church in general," but local assemblies which meet regularly to observe the Lord's Day, Lord's Table, etc. So, these are the patterns given in Scripture for how a local body of believers is to be governed, shepherded, etc. (Of course, there are references to the "general church" in these epistles as well, but the guidelines for deacons, pastors, etc., are obviously for local bodies.)

I don't understand... I though all the New Testament was meant for us to learn from it... not just the local Churches in the Early Church. You yourself have mentioned that the guidelines for deacons/pastors was meant for today. Do you mean women can teach men outside of the Early Christians church?

I'm sure it happens differently in every church when it comes down to details, since the details aren’t really spelled out in Scripture. This process is happening right now in the church in which I grew up. I'll try to describe it for you. A pulpit committee is formed by the congregation for the purpose of dedicating themselves to looking for a new pastor. Any member of the congregation may submit nominations (from among the local church group, or from outside the group) to the pulpit committee. Also, the committee makes contact with various sources (like universities, other churches, etc.) to see if there is anyone who is looking for a pastorate that might be a good fit for this congregation. All nominations are vetted...That is, the pulpit committee searches out references for each name, conducts interviews, looks into the men’s backgrounds, etc. During this time, some nominees may choose to remove their names. At this point (at the church I referenced), there are three men whose names remain in nomination. The pulpit committee is getting ready to announce their findings to the congregation and continue the process of determining who would best fit the office of pastor. These proceedings occur slowly, carefully, and with unity in the church body.

I assume this already pressuposes that the community knows what to look for or else they would be just "pulling straws"... right?
Does this imply that people can get chosen even if they do not want to be in that list? What do you mean with "some nominees may choose"? Does that mean that some others may not?
What does it mean by unity? Everybody has to agree?

I would imagine I mean the same thing when I say “teaching” as you do when you use the word. In Scripture, in the local church context, “teaching” means formally instructing the assembled body of believers in the word. The Bible says that a woman is not to teach in this context, but is to sit in silence.

I believe in God and I am a man, and you have been teaching me a lot... does this mean you are wrong?

Is it not always good to affirm what God has affirmed? God has clearly laid out the pattern for church governance; his authority, not man’s, is behind that pattern. (Maybe I don't understand your question here.)

You mention God's authority is implied but as far as you mentioned the only permission is given by the congregation. Do you assume that what the congregation chooses must be God's Will?
You have never seen a congregation choosing a bad pastor?
One in Christ,
D
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The local New Testament Church is the authority, the pastor is its under-Shepard, Jesus is still its head, & the local church is to use the Bible as its guide.

The verses given on who is qualified to be a pastor is very clear, if any verse hints at the thought a woman can be pastor, them it contradict the very clear scriptures I have given thus makes God contradict Himself, God never contradicts Himself, so go with the Scriptures are very clear & to the point.

Several articles on this subject right here.

And there's several articles on the History of Baptist Churches right here that will answer some of the questions.

That is if your really wanting questions answered, I say this only because much of the time those with such questions as you have are wanting much more than to ask questions, they want a soap box to stand on to proclaim their false teachings while trying to tear ours down. I hope that is not the case with you, being as I am not all knowing as my Lord is I cannot tell when a person is doing this, that is util they post something that gives them away.

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