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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Eagles - Mat. 24:28


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  • Advanced Member

The passage in question is:

23
Then if any man shall say u
nt
o you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it n
ot
.

24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25
Behold, I have told you before.

26
Wherefore if they shall say u
nt
o you, Behold, he is in the desert; go n
ot
forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it n
ot
.

27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even u
nt
o the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


The general context is the destruction of the temple that occurred in AD 70, with allusions to the second coming of the Lord.

The specific context is the rise of false Christs & false prophets. We see some of these in Acts, some of whom were rejected by the Jewish leaders themselves. (Acts 5:36-7) That gives a general warning not to follow anyone claiming to be Christ. There will be absolutely no doubt, just as we have no doubt about a flash of lightning - everyone sees it at once.

I do not think we need concern ourselves with whether the birds are eagles or vultures, just as we need not argue about a great fish, or whale - vultures are more likely as they flock & feed on carrion, whereas eagles catch their own prey.

Jesus may simply be saying that when you see a flock of eagles on the ground, you will find a carcase, with no further significance. But he is talking about the coming of the Son of man.

Jesus' warnings include the command to flee the doomed city. The city was doomed when the Romans laid siege, so the Roman armies surrounding the city is clear warning, & a reasonable understand of "eagles" as they had eagle standards.

What do commentators say?

Chuck Smith:
Now there is a lot of problem on the interpretation of what Jesus meant, by "wherever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together", and the interpretations fight each other and are indirect opposition to each other. The one interpretation is that the carcass refers to all of the dead bodies that will be in the Valley of Megiddo after that great slaughter in the war there. And where God invites, in Revelation chapter seventeen, the birds of the air to come feast upon the kings, and the chief captains, and men and so forth. And that it will be the vultures that will come into the Valley of Megiddo to devour all of these slain bodies that are there.
And someone even had a rumor that vultures were multiplying very rapidly in Israel, and that all the vultures were laying four and five eggs, instead of the usual two and all, which is all a bunch of poppycock. But people get those stories going, and then they have a way of embellishing them and enlarging them. Now that's one interpretation.

The other interpretation --and let me say the word is "eagle", not vulture. And the other interpretation is so different from the first, and they say the carcass is really the body of Christ, and the eagles are the saints. So you see how diverse the interpretations of this particular verse actually are.
Now I for one am not willing to get into the dispute of which interpretation is right. There are many things that I have filed in my file up here in my brain that says wait for further information before you make a solid decision or commitment. This is one of those areas. I really don't know which interpretation is right, and I am really open. I don't know, and I confess, I don't know. I can see the problems with either interpretation. I can see the validity for both interpretations, and I personally do not know which interpretation is correct, and thus you're free. I've given you both interpretations to choose whichever one fits your schema best, and you can go with it.


Matthew Henry
2. Some understand these verses of the coming of the Son of man to destroy Jerusalem, Mal. 3:1, 2, 5. So much was there of an extraordinary display of divine power and justice in that event, that it is called the coming of Christ.
Now here are two things intimated concerning it.
(1.) That to the most it would be as unexpected as a flash of lightning, which indeed gives warning of the clap of thunder which follows, but is itself surprising. The seducers say, Lo, here is Christ to deliver us; or there is one, a creature of their own fancies; but ere they are aware, the wrath of the Lamb, the true Christ, will arrest them, and they shall not escape.

(2.) That it might be as justly expected as that the eagle should fly to the carcases; though they put far from them the evil day, yet the desolation will come as certainly as the birds of prey to a dead carcase, that lies exposed in the open field. [1.] The Jews were so corrupt and degenerate, so vile and vicious, that they were become a carcase, obnoxious to the righteous judgment of God; they were also so factious and seditious, and every way so provoking to the Romans, that they had made themselves obnoxious to their resentments, and an inviting prey to them. [2.] The Romans were as an eagle, and the ensign of their armies was an eagle. The army of the Chaldeans is said to fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat, Hab. 1:8. The ruin of the New-Testament Babylon is represented by a call to the birds of prey to come and feast upon the slain, Rev. 19:17, 18. Notorious malefactors have their eyes eaten out by the young eagles (Prov. 30:17); the Jews were hung up in chains, Jer. 7:33; 16:4. [3.] The Jews can no more preserve themselves from the Romans than the carcase can secure itself from the eagles. [4.] The destruction shall find out the Jews wherever they are, as the eagle scents the prey. Note, When a people do by their sin make themselves carcases, putrid and loathsome, nothing can be expected but that God should send eagles among them, to devour and destroy them.
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Huh - no Scripture references, just the thoughts of men.....
That doesn't cut the mustard with me!
In Matthew 13, Jesus Christ gave us several parables, and then defined the terms for the parables.
In many other places, by comparing Scripture with Scripture - doing a word study - we can come to reasonable conclusions about how God uses a particular word in the Bible.
If in fact, the Lord intended for us to understand the "eagles" in Matthew 24, then why in the world did He not give us other references that would lead us to that conclusion? Are we now dependent upon other men to tell us that the Romans had eagles on their standards? Must we go to the educated elite to tell us what the passage means?
No, we don't. That is what God hates - Nicolaitanism. People telling other people what the Bible really means. The Bible doesn't really mean "eagles," God really meant to say the "Romans" but wanted to keep everyone guessing, so He said "eagles" instead.
The simple, basic, average person just picking up a New Testament and reading through Matthew would never get the idea that the "eagle" was "Rome." Never. Somebody has to TELL you that. But the Bible does not indicate anywhere within its own pages that "eagles" and "Rome" are the same thing. Never.

So your theory does not fit the literal reading of the passage. It denies simple 5th grade logic. It denies simple basic Scriptural study.
Eagle = E-A-G-L-E
Romans = R-O-M-A-N-S
They are never equated to each other anywhere in Scripture, unless we READ IT INTO THE PASSAGE, but then that would fall under the heading of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, now wouldn't it???

I could care less about what the next 50 commentaries say - I want to know what the Scriptures say on the topic. Give me 5 good, solid passages that conclusively prove that the "eagle" of Matthew 24 means the Romans.

When you can do that, I will humbly apologize, and rethink my position.
But when you come out quoting commentators, and not giving any Scripture, it only goes to show how weak your position really is!

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The eagles will come from America on the other end of the earth to take the women and children safely back to America during the time of judgment by fire in the sixth seal judgment. The soldiers of the eagle will still be in Israel when Jesus comes as the lightning in Matthew 24:27-30

Isaiah 5:16–30 KJV
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign ( an eagle) to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey,(at the carcuse) and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

Revelation 12:13–14 KJV
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3).

Mid tribulation
Revelation 12:13–14 KJV
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,(to the other end of the earth) into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war.

Matthew 24:27–30 KJV
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase(prey) is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Zechariah 14:3–6KJV
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

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Huh - no Scripture references, just the thoughts of men.....


My post was largely a Scripture reference.

The disp - Chuck Smith - did not offer a Scripture to support the two interpretations he considered. Matthew Henry quoted much Scripture.

God likens himself to an eagle, e.g:
Exo. 19:
4
Ye have seen what I did u
nt
o the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you u
nt
o myself.


Deu. 32:
11
As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
12
So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

That is a rather different picture to the destructive, destroying eagles of prophecy (including Mat. 24 & Luke 17 (?), & the carrion birds of Eze. 39 & Rev. 19), but close in thought to Isaiah 40 & Rev. 12.
31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mou
nt
up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and n
ot
be weary; and they shall walk, and n
ot
fai
nt
.


14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly i
nt
o the wilderness, i
nt
o her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpe
nt
.


Context is obviously important.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Eric - your interpretations are very imaginative, but you had to insert "eagle" into the Isaiah reference. I don't think it is really there.

Ian - your post was largely a "scripture reference?"
OK - you quoted the Matthew 24 passage. You made a reference to Acts 5, which had nothing to do with the eagles or Rome.
And then you quoted a few commentators.

Nope, that is NOT "scripture references."
Then you come back and say that the "eagle" in other passages is the Lord (and I agree with your assessment of those particular passages!) Yes, context IS important, but we should be able to see the definition IN THE PASSAGE. There is no indication IN MATTHEW 24 that the "eagle" is Rome, UNLESS you read it into the passage, i.e. private interpretation.

I am looking for a definitive statement similar to Luke 8:5,11, or a defined parable like Jeremiah 18:1-10 or Jeremiah 24. These are visions and parables that God gave to Jeremiah, but GOD DEFINES THE PARABLE in the passage.

Come on, now Ian! It really is not that difficult. If the Lord Jesus Christ meant for us to understand the "eagle" in Matt. 24 as "Rome," HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO. The fact that He didn't tells us that the "eagle" means "eagle!"

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I had a passing thought. I notice that in each of the OT references and the Rev. reference the eagle signifies the saving and preserving power of God. Saving and preserving of His people and His Church.

Why would the Matt. reference be any different?

Something like..."...for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Even in the midst of the death and carnage, "...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

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Don't forget, Eric says he has been given special revelation to share with the rest of us and the wise will believe it.


Believe it? I have a hard enough time reading it! Brother Eric, you need to post in bigger text!
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Ian - your post was largely a "scripture reference?"
OK - you quoted the Matthew 24 passage. You made a reference to Acts 5, which had nothing to do with the eagles or Rome.
And then you quoted a few commentators.

Nope, that is NOT "scripture references."
Matthew Henry is a widely respected commentator, who referred to many Scriptures in the passage cited. However, in some cases we understand prophecy by its fulfilment. Jesus does not mention "Rome" in his Olivet prophecy, but we all accept that the destruction of the temple, & the city, was by Rome in AD 70. The question comes down down to, "is Jesus alluding to the destruction he is prophesying when he prophesies wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Or is he giving a biology lesson."


Then you come back and say that the "eagle" in other passages is the Lord (and I agree with your assessment of those particular passages!) Yes, context IS important, but we should be able to see the definition IN THE PASSAGE. There is no indication IN MATTHEW 24 that the "eagle" is Rome, UNLESS you read it into the passage, i.e. private interpretation.
NOT "private interpretation" but recognising the fulfilment of the prophecy. I do not think the Jerusalem Christians would have insisted that Jesus' warning were all "end times" when they saw what was happening.

I am looking for a definitive statement similar to Luke 8:5,11, or a defined parable like Jeremiah 18:1-10 or Jeremiah 24. These are visions and parables that God gave to Jeremiah, but GOD DEFINES THE PARABLE in the passage.

Come on, now Ian! It really is not that difficult. If the Lord Jesus Christ meant for us to understand the "eagle" in Matt. 24 as "Rome," HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO. The fact that He didn't tells us that the "eagle" means "eagle!"
You've made your point & I've made mine. We know eagles eat carrion, & we know Rome destroyed Jerusalem according to Jesus prophecy. The fact that Scripture was almost complete, & does not record the prophesied destruction does not mean that we should not believe the historical records.
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The eagles will come from America on the other end of the earth to take the women and children safely back to America during the time of judgment by fire in the sixth seal judgment. The soldiers of the eagle will still be in Israel when Jesus comes as the lightning in Matthew 24:27-30

Isaiah 5:16–30 KJV
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign ( an eagle) to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey,(at the carcuse) and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

Revelation 12:13–14 KJV
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3).

Mid tribulation
Revelation 12:13–14 KJV
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,(to the other end of the earth) into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30. God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war.

Matthew 24:27–30 KJV
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase(prey) is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Zechariah 14:3–6KJV
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:


Israel is only carried away once before the devil is cast to the earth. John described (who) did it in Revelation 12:14, and Isaiah told us (where) Israel is taken as prey safely when the heavens are darkened over Israel.

Sorry Rick I tryed to make the print bigger. Edited by Eric Stahl
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Eric - your interpretations are very imaginative, but you had to insert "eagle" into the Isaiah reference. I don't think it is really there.

Ian - your post was largely a "scripture reference?"
OK - you quoted the Matthew 24 passage. You made a reference to Acts 5, which had nothing to do with the eagles or Rome.
And then you quoted a few commentators.

Nope, that is NOT "scripture references."
Then you come back and say that the "eagle" in other passages is the Lord (and I agree with your assessment of those particular passages!) Yes, context IS important, but we should be able to see the definition IN THE PASSAGE. There is no indication IN MATTHEW 24 that the "eagle" is Rome, UNLESS you read it into the passage, i.e. private interpretation.

I am looking for a definitive statement similar to Luke 8:5,11, or a defined parable like Jeremiah 18:1-10 or Jeremiah 24. These are visions and parables that God gave to Jeremiah, but GOD DEFINES THE PARABLE in the passage.

Come on, now Ian! It really is not that difficult. If the Lord Jesus Christ meant for us to understand the "eagle" in Matt. 24 as "Rome," HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO. The fact that He didn't tells us that the "eagle" means "eagle!"


Steve,
John told us who would carry away Israel before the devil is cast down. Isaiah 5:24-30 tells us where they are carried too when the heavens are darkened over Israel or the sixth seal.
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Eric, thanks for making the text bigger. I doubt it's a giant eagle that does what you say it does, probably more likely to be a 747 (John wouldn't know what to call that afterall so it's likely that he'd call it an eagle).

The Bible says that they are taken to a "place prepared for them in the wilderness." I have a hard time thinking that's America. My best guess it that it's Selah Petra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra

The Sixth Seal is Armageddon. The description of it ties in directly with Matthew 24, the Seventh Trumpet events, Rev. 14, and 19. They're all the same.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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Eric, thanks for making the text bigger. I doubt it's a giant eagle that does what you say it does, probably more likely to be a 747 (John wouldn't know what to call that afterall so it's likely that he'd call it an eagle).



Where is that "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon, you could have used it here. You're in for it now. Edited by 1Tim115
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Eric, thanks for making the text bigger. I doubt it's a giant eagle that does what you say it does, probably more likely to be a 747 (John wouldn't know what to call that afterall so it's likely that he'd call it an eagle).

The Bible says that they are taken to a "place prepared for them in the wilderness." I have a hard time thinking that's America. My best guess it that it's Selah Petra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra

The Sixth Seal is Armageddon. The description of it ties in directly with Matthew 24, the Seventh Trumpet events, Rev. 14, and 19. They're all the same.


Rick the Jews that are carried away go to the other end of the earth from Israel Isaiah 5:24-30.

The Jews that flee down the valley caused by the the Lord splitting the mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:1-5) will go to the river ford on the Arnon River which is on the Jordan side of the dead sea Isaiah 16:1-5. When the devil cause the antichrist to send a flood of soldiers after the flee Jews, God will cause the mount of Olives to swallow the the antichrist men like the Red Sea swallowed the Egyptians Revelations 12:15-17.
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Oh wow. Eagles are airplanes. That's biblical.



Imaginations seem to be running amok here, especially who those who say they take scripture literally.



Until you can come up with a real argument go back to your sandbox. You guys are like those little moles; no matter how many times you get smacked down you keep popping up. We're getting tired of blowing up your systems. :)


Eric,

Interesting thoughts. If Is. 5:26 is a Second Advent passage, it could just as easily be Christ coming to them from the end of the Earth, not the ensign. The One who is lifting up the ensign is the one who is coming from the end of the earth, it's not the ensign coming from the end of the earth. Besides, the Jews are taken to a place prepared for them in the wilderness. The wilderness in the Bible would be where the patriarchs wandered, that certainly wasn't America! It would tie into Esau's stomping ground, Edom, which is where Selah Petra is located.

Is. 5:26, "And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:" Edited by Rick Schworer
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