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The Gap (Daniel 11:33-35)


LindaR

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You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.

Not at all. Adam had a choice to make and God knew before the foundation of the world what choice Adam would make.
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  • IFB

But having a choice means that Adam could have chosen differently. What then?
Foreknowledge is not predestination.
So, what was God's plan for Adam if Adam had chosen right?
What was God's plan if Israel had obeyed the Law?
What was God's plan if Saul had not disobeyed? (King Saul in the OT)
What was God's plan if Israel had repented at the preaching of Jeremiah?

God gives us free-will. Thus, the Lord knows what to do in either case. There is a "Plan A" - the plan where we do what is right and pleasing to Him. This is His perfect will. This is what God wants.
However, if we sin, then catastrophic results come. This is not God's will, but God will let us choose, and bear the blessings or consequences of our actions. Plan A - God's blessings. Plan B - God's chastisement.
It has always been that way, and will continue to be that way until Revelation 21.

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  • IFB

But having a choice means that Adam could have chosen differently. What then?
Foreknowledge is not predestination.
So, what was God's plan for Adam if Adam had chosen right?
What was God's plan if Israel had obeyed the Law?
What was God's plan if Saul had not disobeyed? (King Saul in the OT)
What was God's plan if Israel had repented at the preaching of Jeremiah?

God gives us free-will. Thus, the Lord knows what to do in either case. There is a "Plan A" - the plan where we do what is right and pleasing to Him. This is His perfect will. This is what God wants.
However, if we sin, then catastrophic results come. This is not God's will, but God will let us choose, and bear the blessings or consequences of our actions. Plan A - God's blessings. Plan B - God's chastisement.
It has always been that way, and will continue to be that way until Revelation 21.

Are you saying that God doesn't know what's going to happen tomorrow, that God doesn't know what both of us will be doing or saying at 8 a.m., Sunday, February 19, 2012?

One couldn't say God had foreknowledge of anything if His foreknowledge could be wrong! How could God ever be wrong? How can God not know what choice each and every person on the planet will make each and every micro-second?

God knew everything about the world and made His plan regarding the world before the foundation of the world. The fact God knew I would be making this post doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. The choice was mine yet God knew what choice I would make before I did, before I was even born.
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God predestined to allow the fall. Adam was the only man who had an innocent neutral free will, the rest of us are born with a sinful and therefore not free nature. In Adam we all chose sin. The fall was an example of where man's free choice leads given the temptation and without God's intervention - sin. So God did predestine to allow the fall (He could have easily prevented it) but He did not make Adam do it. Adam did it by his own free will. It is because free will does not lead to God; only His grace does.

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Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

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You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.


I think that Martin Luther put it better than that. He said Adam was given free will and adam sinned and through Adam we have all sinned. Our free will is only to sin. You will find that, not the exact words, in his Bondage of the Will.
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  • IFB

Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

What I mentioned, has nothing to do with Calvinism or predestination and does not effect free will.

God knows the beginning from the end. God knew everything that would occur with His creation before He ever created it. God knew every choice every human would ever have and God knew what choice each would make each time even before the foundation of the world.

Knowing all this, God knew exactly what He planned to do with regards to salvation (and all things) from beginning to end, and didn't need nor does He now need any contingency plans.
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Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.



So Paul was teaching a "Christianised version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy" when he said we were predestined?

.
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From an actual witch's post on pagan theology:

The other tree is the Tree of Knowledge. This is associated with Satan and Death and is the tree that Adam and Eve ate from, causing them to be banished and marked. The secret to the Tree of Knowledge is the knowledge that you don’t have to give your soul to anyone. You can own it yourself. You have Free Will.

In Pagan religions, we can serve the Gods (or choose not to) while retaining full ownership and control of our free will and our souls. When I serve Lord Hermes, I am not giving up myself to Him. He is not choosing my actions for me and I don’t blindly do as He asks. I am still responsible for my actions, even those done in His service. (See Serving the Gods)

This is a fundamental difference between the Pagan religions and the Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic followers strive to give their will, their soul, to their God. The believe strongly that their will is never theirs and cannot ever be their own. They must give it to either one deity or another.

Pagans see it as a choice between giving their soul to a God (or number of Gods, though that would make life extremely difficult) or keep it for themselves. Most choose to keep it themselves. They choose the path of Free Will, not (any) God’s Will.
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  • IFB

Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

Predestination is taught in Scripture, but it is not taught as Augustine and Calvin taught it. Scriptural predestination is NOT fatalism...or as Bro. Steve pointed out "the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy."

God planned man’s salvation before the creation:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination doesn’t mean that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. Scripture states that God wants all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestined TO than WHO is predestined.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination assures eternal salvation.
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Pagan fatalism teaches that an impersonal unmovable force (fate) determines the course of life. Everything happens without a purpose and there's nothing we can do about it. Enjoy the ride if anything enjoyable comes your way. Otherwise you're out of luck.

Pagan free will teaches that we are gods and can choose to serve a lesser god or force or idea or something in order to get what we want. The purpose is to gratify self, whether in a hedonistic or pious or other way. The Christian version of this is that you can gain salvation by praying sincere enough and having a faith good enough to get into Heaven.

The Bible teaches that God is in control and can choose what to allow to happen and what to bring about. He is free to do as He pleases. Because He is characterized by love, He has an ultimate good purpose for everything He does and allows. Faith and repentance are gifts He gives to His children who are born of His Spirit. It is by His grace that I believe; it is not my doing. The purpose of my life is to gaze upon His beauty and to worship (enjoy) Him for who He is. Outward expressions of this include preaching the gospel in word and deed and many other things. Any other motive for doing anything is sin.

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  • IFB

It's funny how infidels after having for hundreds of years declared that man doesn't have free will, now say that Christians are the ones without free will. In reality it's sad, they don't know what to believe, they are lost, blind and cannot see. The Lord says they are proud, knowing-nothing and foolish.

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IF all things are predestined exactly how they will take place, or even IF God's for knowledge is such that there is no room for free will that would change God's way of handling something, would someone please explain to me Isaiah 38 and 2 Kings 20?

2Ki 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
2Ki 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
2Ki 20:4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
2Ki 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
2Ki 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

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The thread has moved seriously :ot:
I have listened carefully to the OP & am amazed at the arguments put forward -arguments that are essentially anti-Scriptural & anti-Jewish, justifying 2,000 years of persecution, & display a pagan fatalism that no "calvinist" would recognise.

32
And such as do wickedly against the covena
nt
shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34
Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appoi
nt
ed.


As I understand it from intertestamental history, Daniel's prophecy is so accurate with regard to the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes & subsequently Herod, & the struggle of the Maccabees, that they have accused him of recording that history rather than prophesying it. Inserting 2,000 years of predestined persecution. Bear in mind the Jews have not got that KJV colon to reassure them that their 2,000 years of suffering is the will of God.

No. Up to the time of Jesus, the history of the nation is a cycle of obedient faith, departure from the faith, punishment for that disobedience, normally by invasion, and the call to repentance, & subsequent restoration. The intertestamental period saw a rise of a strict, Pharisaical legalism, & cooperation with the occupying powers, that left the faithful in the minority.

The Jewish leaders evidenced this by not following the Magi to Bethlehem, by refusing to acknowledge John as "Elijah" & so submit to his baptism, etc. They knew the events of Zecharias at the temple, & of the Messiah's birth at Bethlehem, yet insisted that Jesus was from Nazareth. (John 7, & the superscription.) Some of those who following Jesus were persecuted in his lifetime. (John 9)

During the Acts period, & particularly during the second half of the 70th week, many thousands of Jews repented & turned to their Messiah. By the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem many thousands of Jews there are which believe. In Acts we can see Jews being converted around the world, but sadly we can also see their rejection by their fellows, so that they become members of the Christian community, rather than a "Messianic Jewish" community. In that situation, they are disowned by the Jews, & marry within the Christian community, & so their "Jewishness" is lost within a generation.

Paul, in 2 Thes 2, writes that the prophesied destruction is delayed the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The obvious understanding of that - something Paul could tell the Thessalonians - is that the Christians would be taken from Jerusalem before the destruction. (See Mat. 24) We see the same in Rev. 7, where the believing Jews are sealed before the destruction.
Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.
....
9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, cl
ot
hed with white r
ob
es, and palms in their hands;
10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and u
nt
o the Lamb.


Daniel is not writing about 2,000+ years of Jewish persecution decreed by God, but encouraging the Jews to believe & continue faithful through persecution. When Messiah comes, the wise do understand, & believe in Jesus as Lord, God & Saviour. Persecution comes to all Christians, regardless of ethnicity, because we now stand against a corrupt world.

We do not need to interpret a colon in Scripture, but to read the words. Paul says it so clearly:
3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each
ot
her aboundeth;

4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgme
nt
of God, that ye may be cou
nt
ed worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know n
ot
God, and that
ob
ey n
ot
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10
When he shall come to be glorified in his sai
nt
s, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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For the Jews, as for all the nations, these days are Gospel days. The Gospel preached at & after Pentecost still rings true. Free forgiveness & full salvation. The self-curse of the Jews is cancelled by the Gospel:

Then answered all the people, and said,
His blood be on us, and on our children.


Repe
nt
, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39
For
the promise is u
nt
o you, and to your children
, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


Note also: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up u
nt
o you of your brethren, like u
nt
o me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say u
nt
o you.

23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will n
ot
hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covena
nt
which God made with our fathers, saying u
nt
o Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26
U
nt
o you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, se
nt
him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


It is a dreadful lie to negate the glorious Gospel promises by a colon. Today's Gospel is for the Jews, as well as every nation.
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