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The Gap (Daniel 11:33-35)


LindaR

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Also for Rick.


No matter you cut it, there is still a "gap." If in fact the preterist view is correct, how do we get from 33 AD to 70 AD without a GAP???? Ian says it is a "continuation of time."
It is nothing of the sort. The text of Daniel 9 says NOTHING about a "continuation of time." It says it would be 70 weeks. 33 AD to 70 AD is more than a "week" no matter how you cut it.

THERE IS A GAP no matter what side you take on this!

Please refer to Dan. 9. The point you are making completely misses the fact that Gabriel says nothing about events during the 68th week, when, if the crucifixion takes place after 69 weeks & before the 70th week Jesus ministry is taking place. Everything is ready for Messiah to begin his ministry after threescore and two weeks. The building, etc, takes place during those 7 & 62 weeks, & all is set for Messiah's ministry of redemption - beginning with his baptism & anointing by the Holy Spirit, even the prophecy that after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. Further, that cutting off is the final effective sacrifice so Gabriel can say: in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

A lot of things happen after threescore and two weeks but after threescore and two weeks does not necessarily mean during the 70th week. Obviously the formal sacrifices are finished when Messiah is cut off, even though they continue for a generation. Also Jesus shall confirm the covenant with many for one week which is during his earthly ministry & during the early apostolic preaching. The 70th week ends around the time of Stephen & Cornelius. Stephen declares the unbelieving Jews uncircumcised, while Peter welcomes the uncircumcised Cornelius by the Gospel.

Are the other prophesied events necessarily during the 70th week? They takes place after threescore and two weeks, & is a consequence of the rejection of the Messiah, but not necessarily during the 70th week.
the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and u
nt
o the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jesus prophesied that against this generation. Those who reject the wonderful salvation declared in v. 24 will suffer the prophesied desolation.

No need for a gap, the saving work was finished, the Gospel proclaimed, the old covenant rituals ended. God graciously allowed a full generation to live under the sound of the Gospel before he carried out the sentence.
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Let’s not change the subject: we've already been through all of that, Romans 9 and 11 make it clear that God is not through with Israel as a nation.

Rick - the whole point of the thread - & the video link - is the predestined persecution of the Jews during the GAP in God's dealings with Israel during the so-called "church age." Many days so far nearly 2,000 years of persecution resulting from a colon, and without Jesus reassurance.
: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil,
many
days.



33
These things I have spoken u
nt
o you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Israel as a people are blessed, not Israel as a nation. Show me otherwise from the NT.
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Appeal to man....
Maybe all the men who are trying the "historical" argument to disprove dispensationalism are wrong.
Maybe Spurgeon was wrong on this point.

Here is the inconsistency. Those who promote this "historical" argument against dispensationalism are left with this preterist/allegorical system that was promoted and used by the ancient HERETICS such as Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, and Augustine. Therefore, based on your own criteria, we should dismiss your theory.

But where does this leave us? Does this "historical" argument really answer the questions?

NO!

WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?


Darby was an Irish high church man. These days he would be called an Anglo Catholic. he was or pretended to be an extreme Calvinist. He once wrote that a tract he wrote in oxford, defending the Calvinist view was the only tract that made him money. B.W. Newton thought it was too extreme and a modest defence of Calvinism would have been better. That would suggest to me that Darby was either not a Calvinst or had not developed his dispensationalist theories as you cannot believe the Doctrines of Grace and Dispensationalism as they are diametrically opposed. Although some try. Darby picked up a Jesuit teaching and developed it. Dispensationalism has never been a baptist teaching. B.W. Newton thought that Darby was sent to Oxford to spy on the evangelicals by the papists, and said that he had read nothing in Darby's writings that a papist could not have written. Newton became a Baptist, Darby became the pope of the Brethren.

What saith the scriptures? or we may add, what don't they say?

Well they certainly do not, in Daniel 9, mention an antichrist, do not mention a gap, do not say a covenant will be made, nor a covenant will be broken.
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Ah, ah, ah, not so fast.

Let's look again at Dan. 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

In the middle of the week you have the sacrifice stopping and the abomination of desolation occurring. They happen at the same time! You can't do anything about it, it’s right there in the text and it’s very clear that they happen together.

Now if you're right, then Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, the animal sacrifices become of no effect, and then we wait another 40 years for the abomination of desolation to happen in 70 A.D. Not only does this not work when you consider every week is supposed to be seven years long, but these events happen in the middle of the week together. That could mean your week would be very long. In fact, if we’re to take the Scripture as how they are written, and force your system of interpretation upon them, then that would mean the middle of the week would consist of a 40 year period. That would mean the entire week would have to be seven periods of 40 years equaling 280 years! This is why you force the abomination of desolation out of the text because it doesn't fit your system. Too bad brother, it's right there and it is part of the week whether you like it or not.

Here's the other alternative:

The 70th week is separated in the text from the other 69 weeks because it is unique. All 70 weeks tie in directly to Israel and her accepting the Messiah, and verse 24 describes what will happen to the nation once all 70 weeks are complete. Daniel has just finished praying one of the most sincere and heartfelt prayers about his nation ever recorded in Scripture. He is begging for forgiveness for his Israel, and God answers by sending Gabriel with a message about the future of his people. Gabriel tells Daniel about the 70 weeks of years and what will happen to his nation in stunning detail.

After 69 weeks the Messiah will be cut off. After describing the events before the 70th week begins, the end of verse 26 mentions a very interesting character and speaks of the 70 A.D. destruction. This character is "the prince that shall come." The people of this prince will destroy Jerusalem, and we see from history those people are Romans. The coming prince (where have I heard that before?) therefore is Roman as well, and he is spoken of in the next verse.

This coming prince confirms the covenant with the nation of Israel and many other people. In the middle of the week he stops the sacrifices and commits the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus (Matthew 24) and Paul (II Thess. 2:4). He is the little horn, the Beast, and the Antichrist, the head of the Babylon of Revelation. His position as head of Rome was revealed in the first century to Bible believers (II Thess. 2:3) and Christians have been calling the head of pagan Rome and religious Rome antichrist ever since. Just as there are many devils and one Devil, so too are there many antichrists and one Antichrist. The future Antichrist will top them all and when he is revealed to be the son of perdition (double application II Thess. 2:3 again). He'll do it by walking into the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (Rev. 11) along with an image of the Beast that actually speaks (Rev. 13), and will declare himself to be God. If a Jew understands anything it's that you don't worship an image, and the ones who can will flee to the place prepared for them in the wilderness by God (Matthew 24, Rev 12).

This week is a seven year period, just like all the rest, and it has to do with the nation of Israel, just like all the other weeks do. To recap, it has the prince that shall come confirming a covenant with many people, the sacrifices will stop when he breaks the covenant (Is. 28:14-15, 18; 33:8, Ps. 55:20-21), and lastly he commits the abomination of desolation in the temple by declaring himself to be God (II Thess. 2:3-12). The book of Revelation tells the rest of the story.

The 70th week is separated from the other weeks in the passage because it is very unique and ties in directly to the Second Advent. Jesus said His Second Coming could happen at any time, and so too this week could begin at any time as well - neither are set in stone, but he said that the generation that sees the beginning of these things will see the end of them as well. The reason the week has not happened is because Israel as a nation repeatedly rejected her Messiah after His crucifixion and became partially blinded to the gospel while God worked with the Gentiles (Rom. 9, 11, Acts 7, 13:46, 28:28). For the events that are described to happen after the 70 weeks to occur, Israel must accept her Messiah. The Tribulation events of Matthew 24 and Revelation all happen within these 7 years and are part and parcel to bringing Israel back to God. Signs and wonders were God's standard operating procedure for dealing with Israel during the Old Testament as well as the time of Christ and the apostles, and it will be the same way again during the Tribulation.


Daniel 9:24-27, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”


Ps. 55:20, “He hath put forth his hands against such as be at peace with him: he hath broken his covenant.
21) The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.


II Thess. 2:3-12, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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A very interesting interpretation but involves a lot of misinterpreting scripture.

Earlier I posted scriptures to show that the 69 weeks expired with the baptism of Jesus. If anyone posted scripture to show I was wrong, I missed it.

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A very interesting interpretation but involves a lot of misinterpreting scripture.

Earlier I posted scriptures to show that the 69 weeks expired with the baptism of Jesus. If anyone posted scripture to show I was wrong, I missed it.


You must have missed this then from an earlier post:

"Let's look again at Dan. 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

In the middle of the week you have the sacrifice stopping and the abomination of desolation occurring. They happen at the same time! You can't do anything about it, it’s right there in the text and it’s very clear that they happen together.

Now if you're right, then Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, the animal sacrifices become of no effect, and then we wait another 40 years for the abomination of desolation to happen in 70 A.D. Not only does this not work when you consider every week is supposed to be seven years long, but these events happen in the middle of the week together. That could mean your week would be very long. In fact, if we’re to take the Scripture as how they are written, and force your system of interpretation upon them, then that would mean the middle of the week would consist of a 40 year period. That would mean the entire week would have to be seven periods of 40 years equaling 280 years! This is why you force the abomination of desolation out of the text because it doesn't fit your system. Too bad brother, it's right there and it is part of the week whether you like it or not."
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It is clear from Dan. 9 that everything happens AFTER the 69th week, during or after the 70th week. Only the rebuilding takes place during the previous 69 weeks.

It is also clear that THE covenant is confirmed, not made & NOT broken. That is the blood of the everlasting covenant AKA the new covenant in Jesus' blood. He confirmed the covenant by his ministry & the Apostolic Gospel.

In the middle of week 70, after the 69th week Jesus refers to the abomination, which Luke asserts is the besieging armies:

15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee i
nt
o the mou
nt
ains:


20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mou
nt
ains;


Jesus had every right to implement the prophesied destruction in the middle of the 70th week when the Jews rejected & crucified him. Also at the end of the 70th week when the Jewish leaders formally rejected the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. He graciously did not, though the judgment of that generation became inevitable, apart from national repentance - as occurred with Nineveh. In fact there was large-scale repentance of many thousands of Jews, & their presence delayed the destruction - as in the days of Lot. See also Rev. 7, & the sealing of the 144,000, & 2 Thes. 2, where the destruction is delayed by the "withholders" presumably the presence of the Jerusalem church.

Jonah was angry with God for not implementing his 40 day destruction message. Likewise YOU accuse God of making a false prophecy because he graciously delays judgment. In any case, it still was to take place AFTER 69 weeks. Rather than admit your misinterpretation, you invent a totally different scenario. You have to interpret - why don't you believe what is written, with the NT explaining & fulfilling the OT.
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The "and" separates it. It is a result of the Jews rejecting Christ's sacrifice. You still haven't shown that the 69 weeks could have ended at any other time than Christ's baptism when He was declared "My Son", "The lamb of God", "The Messias" He said, "The time is fulfilled" and "I am He." What other scripture proof do you need.

He was the "Most Holy" which was to be annointed.

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I do believe what was written. The abomination of desolation takes place during the 70th week.

You keep trying to take it out of there.

The OP claims that a colon means a gap - 2,000 years & counting.

I can claim that a comma separates the end of sacrifices from the abomination.
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The "and" separates it. It is a result of the Jews rejecting Christ's sacrifice. You still haven't shown that the 69 weeks could have ended at any other time than Christ's baptism when He was declared "My Son", "The lamb of God", "The Messias" He said, "The time is fulfilled" and "I am He." What other scripture proof do you need.

He was the "Most Holy" which was to be annointed.


"...he shall make it desolate" refers BACK to the previous statement within the same sentence of the sacrifices being stopped at the middle of the week.

The abomination of desolation is still in the 70th week no matter how hard you try to pull it out.

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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The abomination of desolation was said by Christ to be the armies surrounding Jerusalem, however YOU try to pull out of it.

Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

These days of vengence were God's vengence on the Jews for crucifying their messiah. This completed our Lord's quote in Luke 4, Jesus said the first part of the quote was fulfilled at that time.

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We've already discussed the Olivet discourse several times, and the point is not what the abomination of desolation is, the point is when it is. The Bible says it happens during the 70th week, and that's all there is to it.

Now how do you explain it being in the 70th week and yet happening 40 years after Christ died which was in the middle of the week?

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We've already discussed the Olivet discourse several times, and the point is not what the abomination of desolation is, the point is when it is. The Bible says it happens during the 70th week, and that's all there is to it.

Now how do you explain it being in the 70th week and yet happening 40 years after Christ died which was in the middle of the week?


Jesus said it would be at the time when they saw the armies surrounded Jerusalem. They saw that in AD66, and the christians fled in accordance with Christ's command, "When you see.....,"
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Appeal to man....
Maybe all the men who are trying the "historical" argument to disprove dispensationalism are wrong.
Maybe Spurgeon was wrong on this point.

Here is the inconsistency. Those who promote this "historical" argument against dispensationalism are left with this preterist/allegorical system that was promoted and used by the ancient HERETICS such as Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, and Augustine. Therefore, based on your own criteria, we should dismiss your theory.

But where does this leave us? Does this "historical" argument really answer the questions?

NO!

WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?

I've not put forth a theory so you can't dismiss it.

Spurgeon was alive when Darby started spreading dispensationalism and Spurgeon noted that it was a new teaching, was unbiblical, and even stated that if Darby were not such a gifted speaker his ideas would have been seen as nutty everyone.

I mentioned Spurgeon only because you first mentioned some others and disclaimed them because they were not Baptist.

As to "what saith the Scripture", the Scripture says there will be 70 weeks. Scripture does not say there will be 69 weeks followed by numerous weeks that won't be counted until eventually we reach a week we'll call the 70th week.
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