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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Video: What's the Big Deal about the King James Version of the Bible? By Sam Gipp


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If I came to you with the ESV and showed you that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried, and rose again, and told you that if you placed your trust in this Jesus in order to be saved, I would be misleading you. The Jesus of the ESV is a liar and not qualified to die for any man's sins.

If you placed your trust in that Jesus of the ESV or the Jesus of any other Alexandrian text translation, you would be just as lost as them man who rejects the Jesus of the KJV.

A liar cannot save you no matter if he did die and come back to life.

A Jesus who is not virgin born cannot save. A Jesus who is not God cannot save.

We must believe in the Jesus of Scripture in order to receive eternal life. Any other Jesus will take us to hell.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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If I came to you with the ESV and showed you that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried, and rose again, and told you that if you placed your trust in this Jesus in order to be saved, I would be misleading you.


So, you say if something that is the truth comes from a less than ideal source that somehow makes it no longer the truth? Your wrong. Balaam was a false teacher that is most likely in hell, yet he spoke the word of God on several occasions. Caiaphas the high priest spoke the word of God in John 11:49-52 though he was a major player in the crucifiction of Christ. The truth remains the truth unless something is added to it or taken away from it that changes it. At what point do you draw the line? If someone was to secretly write "Jesus was a liar" in the back of your copy of the KJV without you knowing would that false statement now written in your bible mean someone couldn't get saved from reading your copy of the KJV? Silly I know, but not much more silly than you claiming the source one hears the gospel from determines whether or not a person is saved rather than simply repentance and faith toward God in the heart through the truth of the gospel itself regardless of the source.
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This is my last comment on this matter, yes, it is possible to be saved without Scripture, I got saved without Scripture and if you tell me that I am not saved because I did not hear Scripture at that time then you are wrong. If you are trying to say that the kids in my Sunday school class are not saved because they did not hear King James Scripture word for word than you are also wrong. Believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and accepting Him saves you and only believing in Jesus Christ and accepting Him saves you, Scripture confirms your salvation. Yes, the KJV is the true Word of God, but like I said earlier, no one is going to stop you and ask you what Bible version you are using.

What a person needs to hear from the plan of salvation is 5 things, 1. I am a sinner 2. The price for sin is death and hell 3. Jesus died to pay that price, He was buried and three days later arose, to give us victory over death. 4. God has a gift, that gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ. 5. To receive His gift you need to believe the last four things and ask Jesus to save you.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:15-18.

There are a lot of churches out there that are ignorant to the fact that they have the wrong Bible, but they know the Gospel, they have just been misguided. You have no right to say that someone is not saved because they were quoted Bible verses that did not come from the King James Bible. That must mean that people before the King James was published are not saved either. It is not our job to question anyone's salvation, but to guide them once they are saved.

Edited by byhisstrength
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So, you say if something that is the truth comes from a less than ideal source that somehow makes it no longer the truth? Your wrong. Balaam was a false teacher that is most likely in hell, yet he spoke the word of God on several occasions. Caiaphas the high priest spoke the word of God in John 11:49-52 though he was a major player in the crucifiction of Christ. The truth remains the truth unless something is added to it or taken away from it that changes it. At what point do you draw the line? If someone was to secretly write "Jesus was a liar" in the back of your copy of the KJV without you knowing would that false statement now written in your bible mean someone couldn't get saved from reading your copy of the KJV? Silly I know, but not much more silly than you claiming the source one hears the gospel from determines whether or not a person is saved rather than simply repentance and faith toward God in the heart through the truth of the gospel itself regardless of the source.
The fact is, the ESV paints Jesus as being a liar, therefore, the statement in that translation that Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day is false. It was not a lying Christ that died, was buried and rose again, but rather a sinless Christ.

One cannot lead another to a saving faith by pointing them to a false Christ.
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This is my last comment on this matter, yes, it is possible to be saved without Scripture, I got saved without Scripture and if you tell me that I am not saved because I did not hear Scripture at that time then you are wrong. If you are trying to say that the kids in my Sunday school class are not saved because they did not hear King James Scripture word for word than you are also wrong. Believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and accepting Him saves you and only believing in Jesus Christ and accepting Him saves you, Scripture confirms your salvation. Yes, the KJV is the true Word of God, but like I said earlier, no one is going to stop you and ask you what Bible version you are using.

What a person needs to hear from the plan of salvation is 5 things, 1. I am a sinner 2. The price for sin is hell 3. Jesus died to pay that price, He was buried and three days later arose, to give us victory over death. 4. God has a gift, that gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ. 5. To receive His gift you need to believe the last four things and ask Jesus to save you.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:15-18.

There are a lot of churches out there that are ignorant to the fact that they have the wrong Bible, but they know the Gospel, they have just been misguided. You have no right to say that someone is not saved because they were quoted Bible verses that did not come from the King James Bible. That must mean that people before the King James was published are not saved either. It is not our job to question anyone's salvation, but to guide them once they are saved.


I guess the Word of God is false then, since it says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. One cannot be saved apart from the Word of God else the Word of God is a lie.
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By the way, the price for our sin is not hell.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. He paid the price for our sins. If one dies and goes to hell, he or she goes to hell with his or her sins already paid for.

The price for our sin is not hell, it is death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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The fact is, the ESV paints Jesus as being a liar, therefore, the statement in that translation that Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day is false. It was not a lying Christ that died, was buried and rose again, but rather a sinless Christ.

One cannot lead another to a saving faith by pointing them to a false Christ.


I think you are being a little extreme about this.
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There is a following of IB "believers" that I have crossed paths with on a few occasions. They believe that if a person was saved in a charismatic, pentecostal or any other denominational church besides their own then they were never saved in the first place. They also teach that if the gospel was NOT preached from the KJV 1611 AV, then it was a false gospel and a false Christ and thus a false conversion and the person was never saved. They use a warped doctrine twisted to suit there own agenda to convince believers that without the work of repentance their salvation is a lie - that it is repentance PLUS faith that saves and not faith alone that saves that then leads to repentance.
They are usually as hard and unforgiving as their doctrine and as un- Christlike as a person can get in character when confronted concerning this false doctrine.

Salvation is simple! Made that way to confound the wise regardless of who preaches it, what bible is used or what church you were in when you were saved - if you preach Christ on the cross - His death and resurrection - man's separation from God through sin - God's reconciliation to man through the FINISHED work of Christ - Christ who took man's sin upon Himself to save those who BELIEVE once and for all ETERNALLY - Grace not works, then you preach the truth and they that hear it have heard the truth.

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If I handed a lost person a Bible that said Christ died on the cross for that man's sin, but that also stated that Christ was a liar (which most Alexandrian Text Translations do), then I have given that man a false gospel... telling him that a lying Christ died on the cross.

That lying Christ had no business going to the cross as he was not qualified to die for my sins or anyone else's sins.

The Bible you teach Christ out of has a lot of bearing as to whether you can lead one to Salvation or not. If the christ of that Bible is a liar, or sinful in any way, that Bible cannot lead one to the Christ that saves because it doesn't portray that Christ.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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I got saved from a TV show and he did not even read Scripture. I got saved because I believed that Jesus died to pay for my sins, that He was buried and resurrected three days later and the only way I can be saved is by Him. I did not hear Scripture to believe that, after I got saved and began reading the Bible that is when everything else fell into place.


I was saved without fully understanding that Christ's death on the Cross was to atone for my sins. Took about 3 years for it to sink in because they don't teach it in Catholic and modern-charismatic churches.

My salvation was genuine that afternoon because I made repentance towards God, asked Him for forgiveness of my sins and put my trust, my faith in Christ Jesus. That day, Wednesday, June 13, 2007, I stopped living for myself and began living to please the Lord. For about 3 years I carried an NIV bible with me and read it cover to cover. But the Holy Spirit went to work on me and in time, through my own studies did I learn that my version was corrupt and that the Received Text was the genuine article to be relied upon. Shortly thereafter, after prompting by the Holy Ghost and lots of prayer I uprooted my family and moved an hour north and joined a Scriptural New Testament Church, an Independent, Fundamental, Soul-Winning, Baptist Church! Praise God!

Shortly before my wondrous salvation, I did not know any genuine Christians nor was I aware that any were living around me. There was nobody to turn to, only the local Christian bookstore and Christian radio and television. The bookstore recommended the NIV and the 700 Club quickly garnered our attention and appreciation. Even with the NIV I soon learned that the goings on at the 700 Club were unscriptural, same with the Catholic Church and later with Calvary Chapel. But boy ohh boy did my sanctification really accelerate with the Kings James Bible and mentoring with the Godly men of our IFB Church and other local church pastors through studying their writings!
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But what if I had a Bible that said Jesus Christ's earthly parent's were named Abraham and Sarah? Why, that changes the whole Gospel. Jesus Christ's parents were not Abraham and Sarah. The Bible records that Jesus' earthly mother was named Mary, and His foster father was named Joseph. By saying Jesus' parents were named Abraham and Sarah, I have presented to you another Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible... even though I said Jesus was born of a virgin, lived 33 years on this Earth, was crucified, buried in a borrowed tomb and rose again the third day. See what happens if just one detail of God's Word is changed into a lie? It destroys the Truth. Truth and lie cannot walk hand in hand, for a lie always defiles truth when accepted as truth. That is why it is important that we know that the gospel we are accepting as truth is the same Gospel that God gave to us....

It is the same with one verse of the Bible making Jesus to be a liar... it perverts the Gospel and turns it into a lie. Truth mixed with error becomes error. One drop of cyanide in a glass of water poisons the entire amount of water, not just a few molecules.

These modern versions present a different Christ once they change one aspect of who He is, and because they do so they are pointing the reader to a false christ and that person cannot be saved believing in the christ that is found in that version.

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But what if I had a Bible that said Jesus Christ's earthly parent's were named Abraham and Sarah? Why, that changes the whole Gospel. Jesus Christ's parents were not Abraham and Sarah. The Bible records that Jesus' earthly mother was named Mary, and His foster father was named Joseph. By saying Jesus' parents were named Abraham and Sarah, I have presented to you another Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible... even though I said Jesus was born of a virgin, lived 33 years on this Earth, was crucified, buried in a borrowed tomb and rose again the third day. See what happens if just one detail of God's Word is changed into a lie? It destroys the Truth. Truth and lie cannot walk hand in hand, for a lie always defiles truth when accepted as truth. That is why it is important that we know that the gospel we are accepting as truth is the same Gospel that God gave to us....

It is the same with one verse of the Bible making Jesus to be a liar... it perverts the Gospel and turns it into a lie. Truth mixed with error becomes error. One drop of cyanide in a glass of water poisons the entire amount of water, not just a few molecules.

These modern versions present a different Christ once they change one aspect of who He is, and because they do so they are pointing the reader to a false christ and that person cannot be saved believing in the christ that is found in that version.


I think I don't stand alone when I say that I and many here see where it is you are coming from, also, what it is that you are trying to say. As much as it grates me to say this, but it is the truth - YOU ARE RIGHT -many (if not all) modern versions take away or add to the truth. We see many turning away from the virgin birth today, turning from grace to works, etc BUT the fact remains that God, Jesus Christ, His Spirit and His Word is greater, will always be greater and has always been greater than man and his attempts to pervert the truth, by this I mean that God's salvation is so simple, so unique, so obvious and so UNIVERSAL that all who call on the name of Jesus can and will be saved, regardless of doctrine or creed or personal understanding of God, His Word or the finished work of Christ. Many in the early church were saved without hearing the complete doctrine, only knowing what He had done - the NT doctrine only came later in the writings of the apostles, mainly Paul. All we do is sow dissent and confusion we we ridicule or demean an individuals salvation and make the saving grace of Christ to no effect. It does not edify the church nor the believer to state that what they have believed to be saving grace is a lie because they had the wrong bible or wrong church or wrong teaching. If a person is truly seeking the truth in Christ we have assurance in His Word that it will be revealed - remember that Jesus Christ is greater than what any person says or writes - what we believe can in no way effect, change or take away from what He has done because HE did it, not us.
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By the way, the price for our sin is not hell.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. He paid the price for our sins. If one dies and goes to hell, he or she goes to hell with his or her sins already paid for.

The price for our sin is not hell, it is death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Sorry, I meant to say death and hell.
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If no one could be born again in Christ without the KJB, or without the texts the KJB stemmed from, then that would mean only a very tiny few would have had the opportunity to come to Christ before the KJB became widespread in use. Even then, those who don't speak English would have been without hope unless someone came to them with a KJB.

What about all those who were born again in Christ before the New Testament was even written?

What about the editions of the KJB which contained printing errors?

There is one Gospel message and it can be shared with or without the written Word.

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Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by what?

The Word of God.

One cannot be saved apart from the Word of God no matter how much one thinks one can be. The Bible does not lie.

Any Bible that presents the saving Christ as being a sinner is presenting a false Christ and should be rejected. It is not of God and God does not support a lie. Nor does He save souls through lies.

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There were people saved before the epistles of the Apostles were written, but how were they saved?

By the Word of God that was preached. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One cannot be saved apart from the Word of God.

And if one changes the Word of God to say something it did not originally say, they are preaching "another Gospel" than that which the Apostles preached. (see Galatians 1:6-9)

Any Bible that presents Christ as having lied, or committed any other sin, is preaching another Christ and cannot be used to lead one to the true Christ. It alwasy points in the wrong direction.

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There were people saved before the epistles of the Apostles were written, but how were they saved?

By the Word of God that was preached. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One cannot be saved apart from the Word of God.

And if one changes the Word of God to say something it did not originally say, they are preaching "another Gospel" than that which the Apostles preached. (see Galatians 1:6-9)

Any Bible that presents Christ as having lied, or committed any other sin, is preaching another Christ and cannot be used to lead one to the true Christ. It alwasy points in the wrong direction.


I think what you need to do is show examples of where a particular bible has in any way stated that Jesus was a sinner, a liar, committed sin, etc. I want to know which bible with quotes etc. I agree that one can not place ones hope in a sinning, lying Christ - He was the perfect sacrifice because He had no sin.

You can not expect us to hold or agree to your above statements without giving us the required evidence to back it up.
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You want examples? Here's one...

In the CEV (Contemporary English Version) John 7:8-10, we read:

Go on to the festival. My time hasn’t yet come, and I am not going.”
Jesus said this and stayed on in Galilee.
Jesus at the Festival of Shelters
After Jesus’ brothers had gone to the festival, he went secretly, without telling anyone.

Notice that Jesus emphatically told His brothers, "I am not going"? But in verse 10, He went anyway. He clearly lied to His brothers.

This lie can be found in many of the modern versions, not just the CEV. They corrupt translations remove the word "yet" from Jesus' statement to His brothers, and in doing so make Him to be a liar.

Here's another from the CEV.... Matthew 5:22:

But I promise you that if you are angry with someone, you will have to stand trial.

This Jesus tells the reader that if he or she is angry with someone, he or she will have to stand trial. This same Jesus got angry with people. So He Himself is just as you or me, a sinner awaiting judgment before God.

Again, the CEV is not the only modern version that removes "without a cause" from this verse.

I encourage you to read the book "Look What's Missing" by David Daniels. In it, he examines texts from several different translations.

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I am well aware that many translations are in error, have words or entire texts missing and misrepresent Jesus and many other doctrines. But let me throw something your way.

I am an unsaved person angry with God. I slander God to my friends by saying:

You know this Jesus everyone is going on about. Can you believe the rubbish they say, that this guy died for you. That if you believe this, this rubbish that you are bad and going to burn and need this guy to save you. Man, this guy was just like everyone else, turned grape juice into wine, beat all those poor blokes in the temple, a drunkard and a bully, what a lot of rubbish - this guy died to save us - what a lie!

Yet the friend decides for some reason in his heart that this is the truth and believes on this "drunkard and bullying" Jesus his friend just told him about - does his friend's statement about Jesus being a drunkard and a bully make the power and grace of God any less powerful or true? Can any mans lie make God a liar?

Again, how can any unsaved person ever know these two verse you just quoted? That comes through diligent study and time spent in fellowship with mature believers. They believe on the saving Grace of Christ who died and rose again and have never even heard of John 7:8-10 (CEV). I have been saved for 29 yrs and an IFB for over ten and have never heard of this. Salvation Grace is milk for babes, what you are talking about is meat for those mature in faith and sound doctrine and I firmly believe that it does not take away a persons salvation what version of the Word the gospel was preached unless someone was preaching the following:

You must believe on the lying Jesus (John 7:8-10 (CEV)) who was sinner (Mat 5:22 (CEV)) who died on the cross a sinner and a liar so that you may saved. An imperfect sacrifice that was raised from the dead to reconcile man unto God.

I think I can say with confidence that even idiots like BH, KC, CD and others like them can't even get the salvation message wrong because God made it so simple.
Jesus = cross = death = sacrifice = resurrection = salvation = grace

Oh, quick edit - I also sadly believe that the idiots that wrote the CEV are more than likely not even aware of these two points you posted and I would stake my life that most of the babes that read it and preach from it don't even have the sense nor the doctrinal understanding to pick it up - it's not our place to call them unsaved - it's our responsibility to gently guide them to the truth - the KJB - and boy can that be hard!

Edited by 2Tim215
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If a man is believing a lie, then that man is mislead.

The man saying that Jesus was a drunkard and a bully is a liar, and the man that believed that lie is deceived into believing in a false Christ, one that is a drunkard and a liar.

Sorry, your analogy doesn't work, Tim. It is still a false Christ being presented and a false Christ being followed.

Doesn't matter if I don't tell the potential convert that the CEV places Jesus as a liar, if I am telling him or her that Jesus died, was buried and rose again and that the CEV I hold in my hand tells you this and much more about this Jesus, then I am presenting the lying Jesus of the CEV's John 7:8 without even mentioning John 7:8.

In other words, the Jesus of the CEV's 1 Corinthians 15:1- 5 is the same Jesus as its John 7:8-10, Matthew 5:22, etc..

And that Jesus is a lying sinner. Sadly, that same Jesus of the CEV can be found in the majority of the modern versions translated from the corrupt Alexandrian texts.

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
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        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
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      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
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      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
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      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
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      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
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      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
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      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
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      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
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      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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