Habakkuk 3 - prophecy or history?

[Steve Schwenke]

Light Verses Darkness

All kinds of facts can be provided about light and why light travels so quickly. Men may talk about photon and electron theory and energy loss or change. They may discuss zero mass requiring no energy to cause it to zip along a path. But they can not tell you the effects of velocities in excess of the speed of light.

There was a man who thought he knew how to explain what would occur if the speed of light were surpassed. He had a theory which in his own mind was unshakable. Another man had an opposing theory which he had studied for many years and was convinced he was right. Each of these men was very learned and had much to contribute to their communities. These men often argued their theories at gatherings of persons of their same field of study. Both men became so consumed by their desire to be right they rejected one another and their communities to live in total seclusion. Finally both decided to shut out any light from outside and lived the remainder of their lives in total darkness.

Luke 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

The apostle Paul was not afraid to name names, and directly confront false doctrine:
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Here's a great one:
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Apparently Solomon was right! There is nothing new under the sun. The Apostle Paul had heretics in his day spiritualizing everything, and putting things in the PAST, when they were YET FUTURE!

[1Timothy115]

The apostle Paul was not afraid to name names, and directly confront false doctrine:
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Here's a great one:
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Apparently Solomon was right! There is nothing new under the sun. The Apostle Paul had heretics in his day spiritualizing everything, and putting things in the PAST, when they were YET FUTURE!

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[Covenanter]

I don't know who Ian Day is, me or what tune that is.

I answered all of the issues you brought up. You have not yet answered the issues I have raised about putting Hab. 3 in the past.
I mean, sure, it is a nice poem and all, but is irrelevant to the conversation.

I have answered in principle - as in Psalm 42 Habakkuk is remembering the LORD's faithfulness in the past, & that gives him the reason for his hope through the coming invasion. The allusions to the songs of Moses in Ex. 15 & Deu. 33 make it clear that Habakkuk's song is his remembrance of the past, rather than a prophecy of distant future. We too can learn from Habakkuk's testimony of faith, & trust our God even in suffering.

2:

20

But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

God is sovereign - now - as the kings of Babylon (the invaders prophesied by Habakkuk) were to find as recorded in Daniel.

Ian

[Steve Schwenke]

Well at least I got your name, thank you!

I pointed out some very specific problems. You are giving a very general answer that does not deal with the specific problems I raised. The same is true with the Matthew 24 and Daniel 8 passages. Your view overlooks far too many inconsistencies.

I asked you directly if Hab. 3 is in the PAST, then WHEN and WHERE did those specific events happen?
You have failed to answer those specific questions, and instead rely upon a general overview.
You insist that because one verse has an allusion to the past, then the entire chapter must be past. However, I pointed out how several verses has absolutely no corresponding references in Joshua or Exodus-Leviticus-Numbers-Deuteronomy.
Thus my conclusion - it is a future prophecy, that is in harmony with many other prophetical references (Zech. 12-14, Joel 2, etc. all come to mind.) In fact, I listed several of these other references, and you never commented on those either.

EVERY WORD of God is pure. Prov. 30:5-6.
Thus every word is important and has weight. We cannot overlook the specifics.

[Covenanter]

Steve:
The apostle Paul was not afraid to name names, and directly confront false doctrine:
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: .....

Well at least I got your name, thank you!

Are you inferring that I am doing evil by diagreeing with you - & confronting your false doctrine?

Surely we search the same open Bible, believe the same Lord & Saviour, & preach the same Gospel.

[Steve Schwenke]

I am saying that you are teaching false doctrine, and that you are leading many away from the truth with that false doctrine.
I gave those other verses to that other brother because I see this too many times. He is saying that we should just overlook someone's false doctrine because they "preach the same gospel."
I disagree with that.
You personally have not done me any evil - so no accusation there. I was demonstrating that the Apostle Paul didn't follow what he was exhorting me to do. I believe that we should call a spade a spade, and we should call false doctrine what it is, and that we should confront it directly. This false doctrine changes the dynamics of what we believe, what we teach, and our approach to the ministry. It is not some small miniscule thing that we can overlook, in my view.

It is nothing personal. I have no personal axe to grind. I have no vendetta to carry out against you personally. But I believe strongly that your position is wrong, and will confront you with it, as I feel led to do so.

You still have not answered any of the SPECIFIC issues I brought up. I guess that is because you don't have an answer to them.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Steve Schwenke

[1Timothy115]

Steve and Ian,
You don't have to worry about me being led astray by either of you, I allow the Holy Spirit to lead me, not the Steve or Ian spirit. You two keep right on debating each other until you both reach your conclusions.

I'll stay out of it, sorry for the interruption. I'm more interested in my study of Christ's earthly ministry before His passion. Town by town, miracle by miracle, fulfillment by fulfillment, confirmation by confirmation, and event by event. What a God!

[Invicta]

Not false doctrine, only different interpretations.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Invicta

[Eric Stahl]

Steve and Ian,
You don't have to worry about me being led astray by either of you, I allow the Holy Spirit to lead me, not the Steve or Ian spirit. You two keep right on debating each other until you both reach your conclusions.

I'll stay out of it, sorry for the interruption. I'm more interested in my study of Christ's earthly ministry before His passion. Town by town, miracle by miracle, fulfillment by fulfillment, confirmation by confirmation, and event by event. What a God!

To see the glorified Jesus Christ read Revelation 1:9-18

[Eric Stahl]

Habakkuk 3:11-13, Amos 8:9 Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 13:9-10, Isaiah 16:3, Isaiah 59:10 Joel 3:14-15 You must read these in the King

James to understand. When the earth is as hot as an oven Malachi 4:1 because the sun is 7 fold strength Isaiah 30:25-26 because Isaiah 25:7

the ozone and hydrogen layers are burned up as a scroll and causes the sun to scorch men Revelation 16:8-9. God Will cause a

permanent solar eclipse to protect Israel and judge the kingdom of antichrist on the dark side of the earth. When Jesus comes as

the redeemer Israel will be sitting in darkness Isaiah 60:1-2 During the kingdom age the New Jerusalem will come into the umbra

shadow of the moon and Jesus will be the light over Israel for 1000 years. There are more scriptures that describe the solar eclipse

in the day of the Lord. I understand this is new understanding but God told Daniel that at the end the wise will understand Daniel 12:4,10.

[Invicta]

Habakkuk 3:11-13, Amos 8:9 Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 13:9-10, Isaiah 16:3, Isaiah 59:10 Joel 3:14-15 You must read these in the King

James to understand. When the earth is as hot as an oven Malachi 4:1 because the sun is 7 fold strength Isaiah 30:25-26 because Isaiah 25:7

the ozone and hydrogen layers are burned up as a scroll and causes the sun to scorch men Revelation 16:8-9. God Will cause a

permanent solar eclipse to protect Israel and judge the kingdom of antichrist on the dark side of the earth. When Jesus comes as

the redeemer Israel will be sitting in darkness Isaiah 60:1-2 During the kingdom age the New Jerusalem will come into the umbra

shadow of the moon and Jesus will be the light over Israel for 1000 years. There are more scriptures that describe the solar eclipse

in the day of the Lord. I understand this is new understanding but God told Daniel that at the end the wise will understand Daniel 12:4,10.

Does that mean only you are wise?

[John81]

Does that mean only you are wise?

That is how it comes across every time he posts this.

It seems to me that claiming God gave him special insight to put into a book so "the wise" will read it and finally understand, doesn't go along with the idea the Bible is complete and needs no further revelation.

[Eric Stahl]

Does that mean only you are wise?

No, I am only 1 of the wise. You also understand but you do not accept this understanding yet.

[Eric Stahl]

That is how it comes across every time he posts this.

It seems to me that claiming God gave him special insight to put into a book so "the wise" will read it and finally understand, doesn't go along with the idea the Bible is complete and needs no further revelation.

Read Daniel 12:4,10 God told Daniel at the end when men run to and fro and knowledge is increased the wise will understand the prophecy which God sealed. So, yes there is prophecy to understand now that was sealed.

[Covenanter]

1. I commented on v. 10 on the other thread. You assume that since there was an event in Joshua's day where the sun and moon stood still, that the entire passage is past. Your assumption is incorrect. Yes - that event happened. But that does not mean that Hab. 3 is all PAST - it means that what happened in Joshua's day will happen again. Notice the following references that refer to the SAME EVENT happening in the FUTURE. None of these passages have anything to do with Joshua:
I haven't restricted to Joshua - see my refs to Deu. 33

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
When did God say?

17

Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall n

ot

regard silver; and as for gold, they shall n

ot

delight in it.

18

Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall n

ot

spare children.

19

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ezekiel 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Is there a problem with supernatural cloud coverage? Who was God "putting out?

15

When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the cou

nt

ry shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
I'm sure you've what happened at Calvary.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Just because this happened ONCE in the past does not preclude it from happening again in the future! (see Exodus 10:21!)

2. Your reference to Deut. 33 means nothing. Moses a prophet also (Deut. 18:15). I pointed out that Jude ALSO references Deut 33, and sees it as yet FUTURE. (What was that about understanding the OT through the quotations in the NT???)
God bringing his people out of Egypt into the promised land is typical of bringing all his redeemed people into the NH&NE.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

3. I gave you ONE reference demonstrating that there are times when God's prophecy of the FUTURE is written in the PAST tense. Isaiah 53 is only ONE example. CHeck every single prophecy of Jesus Christ, and you will see this happens more than once. It is a common practice of the Lord to do this.

4. The REAL question about Deut. 33 is "Did this actually happen?" You say it happened with Moses. I say it was PARTIALLY fulfilled with Moses, but Moses with Israel was only the TYPE of what will happen LATER. How do I know this? Well, just show me in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy where God actually met Israel at Seir or Paran. He didn't! He met them at SINAI with the Law.
God was with his people throughout their journey.


5. You continue to refusing explaining what I pointed out. Notice, I never interpreted the passage, I simply believe what is written is what God intended us to KNOW. If it did not all literally happen in the past, then it is a false account.
We KNOW that God cannot lie, so, as the Author of Scripture, God would always give us an accurate account of the past.
Since this is NOT an accurate account of the past, there is only ONE conclusion - it is prophetic of events in the future.

Notice:
Habakkuk 3:5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
When did this happen? Where is the account of GOD being present ON THE EARTH when Joshua went into the Promised Land?
Ten plagues - Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
I have read the book of Joshua through many times, and have never read an account of the mountains being scattered. Can you enlighten me on those references?
See Psalm 114:

1

When Israel we

nt

out of Egypt, the house of Jac

ob

from a people of strange language;

2

Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.

3

The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.

4

The mou

nt

ains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.

5

What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?

6

Ye mou

nt

ains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?

7

Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jac

ob

;

8

Which turned the rock i

nt

o a standing water, the fli

nt

i

nt

o a fou

nt

ain of waters.

Habakkuk 3:8 Was the LORD displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?
Notice the personal pronoun "thy/thine" referring directly to the LORD - not Joshua. Where is the references in the book of Joshua that shows us where the LORD HIMSELF rode upon horses and chariots in anger? I can show you several other passages where it is prophesied of a future event where the Lord rides on a horse and delivers Israel!!! (Isa. 63:1-5, ??? no ref to the Lord riding horses there, nor in Zech. 14 ,
Rev. 19 all come to mind - just for starters!) Before we get too literal,& start on Revelation note:

15

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Habakkuk 3:9

Thy bow was made quite naked,

according

to the oaths of the tribes,

even thy

word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.

When and where did this happen in Joshua's day???

Habakkuk 3:11

The sun

and

moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they we

nt

,

and

at the shining of thy glittering spear.

Did this happen in Joshua's day? Yes!

Does that mean the rest of the passage did? NO!

I have consiste

nt

ly referred to b

ot

h Moses, with the allusion to Deu.33 & Joshua, with his great victory.

We can't pluck one verse out of the e

nt

ire chapter, and then derive our i

nt

erpretation of the passage from ONE VERSE!!! We must take the chapter as an e

nt

ire unit, and derive our understanding of it from the e

nt

ire co

nt

ext!

I have demonstrated that there are

ot

her eve

nt

s referenced in the very same chapter that have n

ot

yet happened. It makes no sense to take one verse out of those many verses, and then throw everything i

nt

o the past.

I have also shown that there are

ot

her references to this same eve

nt

. The co

nt

ext of those

ot

her passages has absolutely N

OT

HING to do with Joshua. Therefore, when we compare Scripture with Scripture, and let the Scriptures stand as they are, without ignoring the co

nt

ext, believing that God actually mea

nt

exactly what He said, we can only conclude that this is prophetic of a future eve

nt

. We can safely make this conclusion since the eve

nt

s recorded in this passage have n

ot

yet literally been fulfilled, and since many

ot

her prophets repeat similar eve

nt

s. It is ONE EVE

NT

, poi

nt

ed out by many prophets!

Now, br

ot

her, you have done the exact same thing in Daniel 8 and Matthew 24. The only way you can throw all of that stuff i

nt

o the past is by ignoring the plain reading of the text (as I have poi

nt

ed out here), and then running off to an

ot

her passage to repeat your ma

nt

ra. Your view has too many holes and inconsistencies in it to be credible.

You are consiste

nt

ly ignoring the co

nt

ext. Habakkuk is remembering God's mighty dealings with Israel in the past, & THAT gives him confidence in his God for the future, even in the face of the prophesied destruction. THAT is a great lesson for us to learn & teach. Psalm 42 gives the same encourageme

nt

. Many

ot

her Psalm teach the same.

I do n

ot

doubt there are prophetic eleme

nt

s in God's historical dealings with his people, also

example(s) and shadow(s) of heavenly things

and also:

all these things happened u

nt

o them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We need to study the Scriptures &

rightly divide the word of truth.

.

In Christ,