Interpetation of prophecy

[Steve Schwenke]

Would somebody who believes that all prophecy is literal, please tell me how all of the following verses have, or will be, fulfilled?


Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Sure - the Bible interprets it for us!
Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Da 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Da 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

[Brother Rick]

I felt like I made myself clear in other posts, but I guess not. It's not that I don't care about church history and what the heroes of the faith taught, believed, and practiced. I believe it is important to study church history, I own and have studied many books (including Shaff’s History of the Christian Church and Creeds of Christendom) - it's just that it is all secondary to what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures are the final authority, not history, a man, or a creed.

Let me illustrate. Here are a group of men that are teaching the truth. One man is a liar, the other man is murdering adulterer, another is a drunk who's had family problems, and the last one is a man who struggles with keeping his temper in check. Should I ignore what they have to say? Are they going to be wrong on everything? If I base my decision solely on the above facts I should ignore them. Problem is, their names are Abraham, David, Noah, and Peter. The guy who you thought was the worst one was the man after God's own heart.

Please do not overreact to this and start claiming that Rick thinks a person's character doesn't matter. That's not what I said. I'm simply trying to illustrate that the most important thing is what the Scriptures teach, and everything else is secondary. I believe what I believe because I believe it's what the Scriptures teach. If some rotten guy in the past taught it too I don't care.

[Invicta]

Sure - the Bible interprets it for us!
Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Da 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Da 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Exactly. It was symbolic, but scripture interprets the symbols in this case, but the part I particularly wanted you to consider, was the last clause: ; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. How do you interpret that? Edited January 23, 2012 by Invicta

[Steve Schwenke]

Exactly. It was symbolic, but scripture interprets the symbols in this case, but the part I particularly wanted you to consider, was the last clause: ; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. How do you interpret that?

Yes - I knew you were going here.
Does the Bible use Symbolism?
Yes.
Does the Bible instruct us to invent our own interpretations to the symbolism?
NOT ONCE.
The Bible always interprets itself.
I noticed that you said, "IN THIS CASE" but you should recognize that it is ALWAYS the case.
The Lord Jesus Christ gave us parables in Matthew 13 - and then he interpretted them FOR US later on.
The Lord gave a dream to Pharaoh, but then had Joseph interpret it later on.
The Lord gave Nebuchadnezzar a dream in Daniel 2, but then had Daniel interpret it.
The example you gave came with an interpretation!

There is absolutely no authority given to us anywhere in Scripture to impose our OWN interpretation on a text just because we don't think it could literally happen. If it IS symbolic, then the Lord will provide HIS OWN INTERPRETATION for us in the text so that we don't become confused.
If there is no interpretation given, then we are to assume it is to be taken literally.

A better question to your "problem" in Daniel 8:10 is this: "Has this yet happened literally?"
If not, then it is yet future. The fact that the Lord gives us a literal interpretation to the first part of the chapter later indicates that there will be a literal fulfillment to v. 10. Your inability to accept that or believe that makes no difference to the Lord.
I don't have to provide any "interpretation" to it - all I have to do is believe it.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Invicta]

With all due respects, brother, that is not an answer.

Before I say any more, I apologise to any on the site to whom I have been rude or disrespectful. I do get carried away sometimes and I will try not to do it again. I know if I do, someone will bring up theis post to remind me.

OK. The points you referrred earlier were symbolic, which were divinely interpreted. I agree with that.

Henry Grattan Guinness, in his short book, The Key To The Apocolypse, gives seven divinely interpreted prophecies which he says, and I agree with him, are the key to interpreting those which are not interpreted. Scripture uses the same symbols throughout to represent the same literal truths. The dispensationalists that I have spoken to deny that and say that a symbol is used for one purpose, only once.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

That verse is loved by dispenationalists, but dispensationalism was the private interpretation of J N Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism. Before that the historic interpretation was general, not private.

[Steve Schwenke]

With all due respects, brother, that is not an answer.

Before I say any more, I apologise to any on the site to whom I have been rude or disrespectful. I do get carried away sometimes and I will try not to do it again. I know if I do, someone will bring up theis post to remind me.

OK. The points you referrred earlier were symbolic, which were divinely interpreted. I agree with that.

Henry Grattan Guinness, in his short book, The Key To The Apocolypse, gives seven divinely interpreted prophecies which he says, and I agree with him, are the key to interpreting those which are not interpreted. Scripture uses the same symbols throughout to represent the same literal truths. The dispensationalists that I have spoken to deny that and say that a symbol is used for one purpose, only once.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

That verse is loved by dispenationalists, but dispensationalism was the private interpretation of J N Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism. Before that the historic interpretation was general, not private.

You are extremely mistaken in your history. I repeat, I have several books here on my shelf that trace the history of dispensationalism back to the Apostolic Age. Maybe Darby can get credit for systematizing it, but then again, there are many flavors of dispensationalism that don't always agree with each other. So let's drop this lame "Darbyism" bunk.

Secondly, I don't know who you have been talking to but you are WOEFULLY MISINFORMED on the symbolism that is interpretted in Scripture. Why don't spend some time reading OUR material, instead of reading what somebody who disagrees with us says about our material?

Why not read Clarence Larkin's material for yourself, and see what he says? (NOTE: I don't agree with everything by Larkin, but a good chunk of it).

The problem with the Allegorical Method is that those who use this confuse the plain teaching of Scripture, invent their own interpretations that cause contradictions, overlook important elements of each text, and try to force things to apply to certain people groups that don't apply.
The most BASIC issue is the distinction between Israel and the NT Church. If someone can't see the distinction between those two groups, they introduce confusion into the interpretation of Scripture.

My answer was sound - it goes to the heart of the issue.

[Eric Stahl]

What is truly literal?

1. Accepting that Jesus is prophesying the signs leading up to the destruction which he has just prophesied, or
2. rejecting the idea that Jesus is actually talking about the AD 70 destruction because we do not think some of the details lterally happened at the time.

Mat. 24 is framed by this generation:

23:

36

Verily I say u

nt

o you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

24:

34

Verily I say u

nt

o you, This generation shall n

ot

pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Postulating a future generation of Jews - who clearly had nothing to do with the actual rejection of their Messiah - is not a literal interpretation.

I know we need to face the literal difficulties of 24:27-31 but in the obvious literal context of the AD 70 destruction we must seek to understand what would occur at the time.

The generation that will see all these signs was the generation that saw Israel push leaves as the fig tree.
We are seeing the signs of Matthew 24:7 happen now as birth pains.

To No Nicolaitans

Your opinions are important. We all get frustrated and tired. None of us has enough time.

[Covenanter]

Sorry for the delay -
Monday - funeral of a tennis club member I've known for 25 years, & meeting a retired missionary friend for:
Tuesday - funeral of a retired missionary (to Burma) aged 95 - we've known him for 30 years & he has preached for us - he was a member of times - a faithful Anglican.
I wasn't officiating at the funerals but both were occasions for useful conversations. Also a retired missionary (to India) came to Southall for the funeral & we saw a lot of her & helped her to meet up with her converts & friends.
Today we saw her off at the Hearthrow Airport coach station - which is designed to prevent motorists dropping off coach passengers. I had to leave my car at a terminal drop-off only - leaving my wife to be impounded - & walk to the coach station. Happily I got back to the car before the officials. PTL.
Then on to lead a lunch-time Bible study & prayer group. We met a new Punjabi lady who had been unable to get to the missionary's funeral, whose sister had died recently. We studied Habakkuk, whose situation was like ours today, surrounded by wickedness & in danger of God's judgment - Live by faith; whatever our circumstances, remember God's faithful dealings in the past, rejoice in the God of our salvation.
Next stop the hospital gym & a heart rehab exercise group.

[Covenanter]

Exactly. It was symbolic, but scripture interprets the symbols in this case, but the part I particularly wanted you to consider, was the last clause: ; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. How do you interpret that?

Steve:
A better question to your "problem" in Daniel 8:10 is this: "Has this yet happened literally?"
If not, then it is yet future. The fact that the Lord gives us a literal interpretation to the first part of the chapter later indicates that there will be a literal fulfillment to v. 10. Your inability to accept that or believe that makes no difference to the Lord.
I don't have to provide any "interpretation" to it - all I have to do is believe it.

I agree with both that the fulfillment is explained in Scripture.

What are stars in prophecy? Joseph's brothers knew - themselves! While stars falling could be a reference to shooting stars - meteorites - they are not dramatic. No, falling stars represent the tribes of Israel & their leaders.

The fulfillment of the goat prophecy is detailed in Dan. 11, with such accuracy relating to the activities of Antiochus Epiphanes, that the moderists claim that Daniel was a pseudo- history, written after the events.

There is no Scriptural warrant (in the interests of "literalism") to isolate a sentence in a prophecy with a clear Biblical & historical fulfillment, & look for an "end times" fulfillment.

This happened:

10

And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11

Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Covenanter

[Steve Schwenke]

No it did not happen, Covenanter.
1. You limited the interpretation of "stars" to ONE passage, when several other passages contradict what you said.
2. You insist on inserting your private interpretation of "stars" into Daniel 8, so that you don't have to deal with a future fulfillment.
3. v. 11 has been "fulfilled" a number of times - but not in the context of Daniel 8; therefore it has NOT been literally fulfilled with all of the other specific prophecies of the chapter. It is inappropriate to look at ONE verse out of an entire passage and deem the prophecy "fulfilled" when there are some specific things in passage that have not yet been literally fulfilled.
4. The rest of Daniel 8 is NOT SYMBOLIC, so then why would anyone take their leave to make ONE VERSE out of the entire passage "symbolic" when the rest of it is clearly NOT symbolic? The symbolism that IS there was interpretted for us (i.e. the ram and the goat and the horns.)
In other words, the "symbolic" elements of the passage need no guesswork because the LORD HIMSELF gave us the interpretation of those "symbols." There is absolutely no Scriptural precedent for us to insert our opinion of what is "symbollic" and what is not.
If there is a "symbol" the Lord Himself reveals it for us.
If the Lord does not reveal it to us, then we are to assume that God was smart enough to actually mean what He said!

Now, let's look at those "stars" for a moment, and interpret them Scripturally!
Judges 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (sounds like a repeat of Daniel 8:10 to me!!!)
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (The context is the resurrection body - see also Daniel 12:3)
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Daniel 8:10 again!!!)
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (Here, the "star" is a person - or created being - like an angel)
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Obviously, there are dozens of passages in the Bible where the word "star" is a reference to the little blinking lights we see up in the sky at night. But those passages are OBVIOUS. These other passages, similar to the ones I have listed OBVIOUSLY indicate something different.
How do we know this? By following the SCRIPTURAL MANDATE of I Cor. 2.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Goodness gracious! If you make "stars" the 12 tribes of Israel, you end up with a mess. Now plenty of these verses here that I have listed clearly indicate that "STARS" are oftentimes a reference to angels. The repetition of the prophecy in Daniel 8 in Matthew 24 and again in Revelation 6 clearly indicates that the Daniel 8 prophecy was NOT fulfilled at the time of Christ or at the time of the Apostle John's Revelation. Hence it is yet FUTURE.

[Brother Rick]

Old Testament prophecy can bounce around, take for instance this passage:

Ezekiel 28:1-19, 1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Okay so He's talking to a human, the king of Tyrus.

3Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

What? That's no human, that's Satan.

4With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Oh wait, nevermind, God is talking to the human again.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

That seems odd.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Okay, that can still work for the king of Tyrus, other than verse 3. But things are about to get weird now.

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Nope, that's no human there. He's speaking to Satan, and referring back to when he was Lucifer.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Definitely Lucifer.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And not the black cat Lucifer from Cinderella either, this is Lucifer the former cherub. I don't think the king of Tyre was ever a Cherub.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Still more Lucifer.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Well that's interesting isn't it? Almost like a specific person in the future that will rise to great prominence and leadership, but will be Satan incarnate. Nah, that’s just crazy futurist stuff.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The last two verses can go either way.

The point is this: Old Testament prophesies can jump around, and this is a very, very clear example of it. There's no reason to believe the same thing didn't happen in the Daniel 8 passage.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Replies in blue.

Sure it is, if only we can see that not everything in Matthew 24 was LITERALLY fulfilled in 70 AD. The verses you post simply mean this: The generation that sees these things BEGIN will see them END. It will all come to pass quickly - within the same generation of people.
Must we insist that Jesus is speaking so literally that if we do not see the events exactly as he says, he must be prophesying a totally different event from the declared destruction of the temple? Jesus commonly speaks in OT language, often figuratively, so that real events are spoken in figures. e.g. Hab. 2: ¹⁰Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul. ¹¹For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.
Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

I quote Habakkuk as his song is a very pictorial remembrance of the deliverance from Egypt through to the settling in the promised land - including Joshua's victory over the Amorites: Hab. 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation...
Josh. 10:13 the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. .
God does not need Eric's permanent eclipse - read the Scriptures.

The same generation that sees this "great tribulation" will ALSO see the return of the Lord.

Did this happen in 70 AD?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Put the verse in context:
Mat. 24:¹⁵When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
¹⁶Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Note the way Luke refers to that event:
21:²⁰And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
²¹Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
²²For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The abomination refers to the Roman armies, with their eagle standards:
Lev. 11:13 these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
Mat. 24:²⁸For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

If it did, then why does John prophesy of it again?
Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
I believe there is evidence that John wrote before the destruction - read the opening chapter.

Notice here that the 2nd Coming of Christ is tied into these prophecies - it is all part and parcel of the same events, i.e. the "great tribulation" culminated by the return of the Lord.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Note the context - don't believe the false claims to be Messiah - there will be no doubt when he comes.
24:²³Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
²⁴For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
²⁵Behold, I have told you before.
²⁶Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
²⁷For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I do not need to explain that in some way Jesus came like lightning in AD 70 & was visible to all. There were many Messiah claims by Jews in Jerusalem & around. Acts records some of them. Jesus did not come like lightning then - but he will.

When did this happen?
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

As Moses - & Habakkuk - show, God moved heaven & earth to bring his people out of Egypt into the promised land. Now he is moving heaven & earth to end the old covenant with all its degraded trappings. Scripture was written before the destruction, so doesn't record the darkening of the sun then, but does record the darkening at mid-day over Calvary. We need not doubt Jesus, or put his prophecy into the distant future. Stars are tribes of Israel.

And if this has already been fulfilled, then again, why does John prophecy this as future?
Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

The interpretation of Revelation requires an overall consideration before we look at specific details. We are considering the Olivet prophecy.

In your zeal to demand that "this generation" means the generation alive at Jesus' first coming, you simply overlooked the preceding verse. Notice:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Notice that it says ALL these things - which includes ALL things, i.e. the return of Jesus Christ.
Did that happen in 70 A.D.???
The answer is a resounding NO.

The resounding answer is "yes." The Jerusalem Christians saw what was happening as the Romans surrounded the city & withdrew. They took the opportunity, as advised by their Lord, to flee the city. Read the details of the prophecy in terms of OT prophecy, as referring to the AD 70 destruction.

Where will you flee to when you see all these things? Surely ever closer to your Saviour. We are safe in him. And where will the Jews flee? Now - only to their Messiah. Not into the mountains, away from their permanent eclipse into the burning heat of the sun, & the supposed nuclear war?

The exegesis problem is not a simple AD 70 understanding, but an imposed end-times scenario that refuses to believe Jesus' temple destruction prophecy that opens the chapter.

A future tribulation scenario makes nonsense of Jesus' prophecy, & meaningless to the generation who heard it - and acted on it.

This only leaves us with ONE possible answer - this is all ONE prophecy and it is yet future!
Read it again!

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

Ok - I am out of here....this is a senseless discussion. I contend that the Scriptures mean EXACTLY what they say. "Close enough" is not good enough in my book.
All of you covenant theologians do the same thing. You twist scripture to make it say what you want it to say, so that you don't have to worry about any future fulfillment. The "eagles" representing Rome? Really? Give me a break! There is nothing in the Scripture that would suggest such a thing. Going to Leviticus and pulling a verse out of context (the list of unclean animals!!!) to prove that "eagles" represent Rome is about as absurd as Bill Clinton's "definition of is" statement.

GOD DEFINES HIS OWN TERMS QUITE CLEARLY, and has no need for anyone to impose their "definitions" of any alleged "symbols." When God says that the "eagles" will gather, then He means that there will be so much CARNAGE out there that the eagles will literally gather.
Good grief! If Matthew 24 is fulfilled by Rome in 70 AD, then WHEN AND WHERE did Jesus return to earth??? Or was that all symbolic also? So REvelation 19 with Jesus on a white horse is all symbolic too?
Hey I have an idea - why don't we just throw the whole Book out, since we all have to GUESS at what it means???

No sir! Not me. I believe that God was SO SMART that He wrote a Book that I could understand, believe, and live. I don't have to GUESS at any "symbols." I think that God thinks that we are so DUMB that we would foul it up for sure, if He wrote it that way. So He wrote it in such a way that HE interprets it FOR US.

Brother, can't you see that you IMPOSED your "interpretation" into Matthew 24?
Did Jesus say Rome? No.
Did Jesus ever say that "eagles" represent Rome? No.
So then where do you get the audacity to IMPOSE your private interpretation into the text?

I didn't do that with Daniel 8. I gave you Scripture - and plenty of it - to show you what those "stars" were. And you just skipped right over that like a JW dodging I Timothy 3:16 in a KJV Bible. The STARS there were ANGELS according to the BIBLICAL definition of it. I didn't go to any secular history book, and pull some weird verse out of LEviticus. I gave you several verses throughout the Bible that all pointed to the same thing.

And you can take your "evidence" of John writing before 70 AD, and throw it in the trash can. It has been commonly accepted amongst conservative scholars for several hundred years now that John wrote in the 90's. Only the most liberal "scholars" dispute that, and the only reason they dispute it is to advance their own view on the Scripture. There is no hidden agenda in a 90 AD date.

PS - not everything in Habakkuk 3 happened in Joshua. Verses 3, 8, 12 make a direct reference to THE LORD HIMSELF being there and "rescuing" Israel. Huh, I didn't think Israel needed "rescuing" in Joshua's day - they were the conquerors!!!

Nope, putting it all in the past overlooks far too many issues. Habakkuk 3 is FUTURE. Joshua was the PICTURE.

So, I take my leave of you.

[Invicta]

Stars refer to people in Genesis. They refer to people in Revelation.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

[Brother Rick]

Don't leave yet, Steve! We're only at post #119, I usuaully hang around till at least post #150! :ROFL: