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Interpetation of prophecy


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I'm not trying to be argumentative or rude, but I'm interested...

If 70 A.D. is when all was fulfilled, how is this explained (v. 21)?

Matthew 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Was not WW1, WW2, and other wars much worse than what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? The answer of course is yes. Would not this make Jesus a liar?

Respectfully,
No Nicolaitans

WW1 and WW2 were much worse than what happened in Jerusalem in 70AD....BUT the Tribulation, especially the last 3 1/2 years (called the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:7) will be much much worse than both World Wars. In fact, WW1 and WW2 will look mild compared to what is going to happen during those 7 years when God pours out His wrath upon the Christ rejecting world. I believe that there will be a period when people will want to die but will be unable to do so.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Men will also ask that the rocks fall on them to hide them from God's wrath:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Much worse than 70AD and both World Wars combined.
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Re: post 32 – RS

The various refs to the kingdom do not imply a millennial kingdom after the Gospel age & before the eternal NH&NE state. You quote 1 verse from the Kingdom parables, & we need to look at all of these.

Mat. 25 follows on from the general injunction “watch & pray” to teach aspects of Christian living in the Gospel age.

You begin by acknowledging that the letters are concerned with living in the present age, looking forward to our Lord's return, but with no emphasis on future millennial details. That honest appraisal indicates that you have to look for millennial support from the OT & Revelation.

It is perhaps possible to read a millennium in 1 Cor. 15 in bewteen 23 & 24:

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

However the literal reading is that Jesus will put down all rule and all authority and power at his coming. Paul says he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. That means that he is presently reigning. When he comes he will raise the dead & so our last enemy will be destroyed.

You previously raised the question about Jesus reigning over the present mess. That we must consider.

II Tim. 4:1, “I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”


You state - “Two things here: the appearing and the kingdom. Both come later!” The general judgement is to take place when Jesus appears, & then his eternal kingdom is seen. It's not a millennial kingdom with another resurrection, judgment & kingdom.

Mat. 13 has 7 parables:
The sower shows various responses to Gospel preaching of the word.
The tares shows a kingdom populated by children of God & children of Satan, with both growing together until the harvest – resurrection & judgment. Again the Gospel age.
The mustard seed & leaven show the growth & progress of the small & insignificant.
The treasure & the pearl show the tremendous value of our relationship with Christ worth everything.
The drag net teaches that many will be drawn by the Gospel, but not all will be saved. At the judgment, separation will take place.

It is possible to see a kingdom comprising believers & unbelievers, as at present, with a great separation at his appearing and his kingdom. What is not apparent is a future millennium comprising saints & sinners.

Acts 1:6, “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”


RS - After spending three and a half years with Christ, the apostles ask if the kingdom is going to come now to Israel. This is either because they were stupid and didn't listen to Jesus trying to tell them over the course of three and half years that there is no kingdom for Israel (what kind of teacher does that make Jesus out to be?) or they had every right to ask that question because one day there is going to be a wonderful kingdom for Israel. You decide.

Not at all – the concept of a future kingdom for Israel was clearly missing from his teaching, or they would not have asked. He repeats the great commission. When the Holy Spirit is poured out, they understand that membership of his kingdom is dependant on repentance & faith in Christ. The question is not again considered, & as you have acknowledged, absent from their writings.

Acts 3 shows their inspired thinking:
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23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will n
ot
hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.


25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covena
nt
which God made with our fathers, saying u
nt
o Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

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26U
nt
o you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, se
nt
him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Note v. 24 – these days. These Gospel days.

Revelation is for another posting.
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WW1 and WW2 were much worse than what happened in Jerusalem in 70AD....BUT the Tribulation, especially the last 3 1/2 years (called the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:7) will be much much worse than both World Wars. In fact, WW1 and WW2 will look mild compared to what is going to happen during those 7 years when God pours out His wrath upon the Christ rejecting world. I believe that there will be a period when people will want to die but will be unable to do so.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Men will also ask that the rocks fall on them to hide them from God's wrath:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Much worse than 70AD and both World Wars combined.


WQhy don't you take notrice of what the scripture says? It does not say it will be the worst, but there will not be any "SUCH AS."

There was never any treibulkation such as when the city was surrounded by an 'enemy' who was pleading with them to save their city and temple, and those in the city were fighting a civil war with three factions fighting between theirselves, and all the priests were murdered and those who had lately worn the robes and vestments of the priesthood had their bodies thrown naked into the streets and trampled upon. The house of archives holing the Jewish genealogies was burnt down and the sacrifice failed because no one could prove their right to be a priest. No there never was a triobulation SUCH AS that, never.
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Oh. So Jesus just meant that there would never be a time in which all those details would happen ever before or after.

He didn't mean that the Great Tribulation would be the worst period of time in which the world has ever seen?

He didn't mean that the trouble the Jews would go through at 70 A.D. would be the worst they've ever seen, before or after?

He only meant that the situation would be unique, sort of.

That's convenient.

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Oh. So Jesus just meant that there would never be a time in which all those details would happen ever before or after.

He didn't mean that the Great Tribulation would be the worst period of time in which the world has ever seen?

He didn't mean that the trouble the Jews would go through at 70 A.D. would be the worst they've ever seen, before or after?

He only meant that the situation would be unique, sort of.

That's convenient.


Show me where it says, "The Worst", please.
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How come Jesus said this in Matthew 24:22 about the future 7 year tribulation period (speaking of the last 3 1/2 years):

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Apparently this didn't happen in 70AD.....but there will be a future period that will be much worse than 70AD, because Jesus said that "except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh saved: ... " The word "worse" is definitely implied here.

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How come Jesus said this in Matthew 24:22 about the future 7 year tribulation period (speaking of the last 3 1/2 years):

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Apparently this didn't happen in 70AD.....but there will be a future period that will be much worse than 70AD, because Jesus said that "except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh saved: ... " The word "worse" is definitely implied here.


You nailed that one, sister! Good job.
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The bible ought to be interpreted according to the intent of the author. Passages which are written in a literal fashion should be interpreted literally. Passages which are written in poetic form are to be interpreted as poetry which represent a literal truth. Symbolic passages are to be interpreted as symbols of something else real. Otherwise you get seven-headed monsters running around, but for some reason dispensationalists allegorize that one and he ends up looking like nicolai carpathia instead.


The intent of the author??? HHHMMMM, I thought that GOD was the Author! How about looking for HIS intent??? God tells us His intent in the verses listed below!!!
The Bible should be interpretted according to how the Bible tells us how to interpret it. Please give us Scripture to support your "system" of interpretation that you have outlined above!
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Notice that the first thing mentioned here is DOCTRINE.
Notice that we are NEVER told to "symbolize" or "allegorize" ANYTHING.
Notice that this extends to ALL Scripture, including poetry.

The system you gave us simply dismisses the doctrinal content and importance of the largest book in the Bible (Psalms) which has a great deal of prophetic material relating to the Tribulation period, the Millenial Kingdom, the 2nd Coming of Christ, etc.
It also dismisses the single most important chapter describing the Devil (Job 41).

I said it before, and I'll keep saying it until the Lord Jesus Christ returns for us. I CANNOT accept the "Covenant" position because it DENIES THE LITERAL INTERPRETATION of Scripture!!! Your post just proved my point!!! So, thank you for helping my cause! Edited by Steve Schwenke
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The intent of the author??? HHHMMMM, I thought that GOD was the Author! How about looking for HIS intent??? God tells us His intent in the verses listed below!!!
The Bible should be interpretted according to how the Bible tells us how to interpret it. Please give us Scripture to support your "system" of interpretation that you have outlined above!
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Notice that the first thing mentioned here is DOCTRINE.
Notice that we are NEVER told to "symbolize" or "allegorize" ANYTHING.
Notice that this extends to ALL Scripture, including poetry.

The system you gave us simply dismisses the doctrinal content and importance of the largest book in the Bible (Psalms) which has a great deal of prophetic material relating to the Tribulation period, the Millenial Kingdom, the 2nd Coming of Christ, etc.
It also dismisses the single most important chapter describing the Devil (Job 41).

I said it before, and I'll keep saying it until the Lord Jesus Christ returns for us. I CANNOT accept the "Covenant" position because it DENIES THE LITERAL INTERPRETATION of Scripture!!! Your post just proved my point!!! So, thank you for helping my cause!


The whole dispensational theory is an interpretetion based, not on scripture but on the teaching of the Plymouth Brethren of J N Darby and continued and added to by Scofield.
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The whole dispensational theory is an interpretetion based, not on scripture but on the teaching of the Plymouth Brethren of J N Darby and continued and added to by Scofield.


Dispensationalism is just an offshoot of historical PreMillennialism, which has been around since John wrote Revelation. Justin Matyr, Tertullian, Irenaues, Polycarp... all Premillenial. The only real difference is that Dispensationalists take it a little further than PreMills do, but we BOTH believe in a future, literal, earthly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Amillennialism was around before the third century, it wasn't a very strong teaching. Everyone's favorite church father, Origen, who gave us our corrupt Alexandrian texts changed all that of course. PostMillennialism came from Augustine and his City of God book in the fourth century where he taught that Rome was New Jerusalem.

I haven't figured out if you're a Post-Millennial or an A-Millennial, but either way those are your roots.
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Dispensationalism is just an offshoot of historical PreMillennialism, which has been around since John wrote Revelation. Justin Matyr, Tertullian, Irenaues, Polycarp... all Premillenial. The only real difference is that Dispensationalists take it a little further than PreMills do, but we BOTH believe in a future, literal, earthly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Amillennialism was around before the third century, it wasn't a very strong teaching. Everyone's favorite church father, Origen, who gave us our corrupt Alexandrian texts changed all that of course. PostMillennialism came from Augustine and his City of God book in the fourth century where he taught that Rome was New Jerusalem.

I haven't figured out if you're a Post-Millennial or an A-Millennial, but either way those are your roots.


You might want to check into the reasons Spurgeon and virtually all conservative pastors/churches in England rejected Darby and Dispensationalism when they first surfaced.
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Actually Rick, I have said before and Ian has also told you that I am historical PreMillennialist. I would add that dispensationalism has nothing to do with the former.

I once said to a pastor that we cannot all be right, but we can all be wrong. He replied "I'm not wrong." I don't think anyone on here teaches what he did, which I suppose is a type of historic a-milleniamism probaly mixed with a bit of futurism.

Thinking further, I beelieve that dispensationalism is just the opposite fof historicism, which considers the papacy to be the Antichrist, and has done sice the Papacy fully obtained its persecuting powers in about 1260.

Dispensationalism and futureism in general, were invented by papists to counter the claims of baptists. This has had a huge damaging effect on the church, allowing Rome to be accepted by the ecumenical community as a genuine christian church, which without futurist teaching, it never would have.

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You might want to check into the reasons Spurgeon and virtually all conservative pastors/churches in England rejected Darby and Dispensationalism when they first surfaced.


That is correct. His teaching was not accepted apart from his Plymouth Brethren, until the end of the 19th century. Up till then it was widely considered to be a heresy.

I have a confession to make. When I was a child we attended a PB assembly and us children the Sunday School. When I was 15 we moved to London and attended a non denominational church where evangelist Lindsey Glegg was pastor. It was there that I was first challenged with the gospel when a visiting pastor stood in the door as I was leaving and asked "How are you with the Lord?" I could not get past him without and answer, yet I had no answer. I went into the back with him and prayed and genuinely thought I was a Christian. Oh yes I believed, but I didn't trust. I guess I got worse and worse, then some years later I remembered those words I had heard several years before. "How are you with the Lord?" I knew I was lost, then remembered Peter's word when he was sinking, "Lord save me." I called out those words and from then I knew I was safe.



I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore,
Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more,
But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry,
From the waters lifted me, now safe am I.
Refrain
Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
When nothing else could help
Love lifted me!
All my heart to Him I give, ever to Him I’ll cling
In His blessèd presence live, ever His praises sing,
Love so mighty and so true, merits my soul’s best songs,
Faithful, loving service too, to Him belongs.
Refrain
Souls in danger look above, Jesus completely saves,
He will lift you by His love, out of the angry waves.
He’s the Master of the sea, billows His will obey,
He your Savior wants to be, be saved today.
Refrain

I continued in the Brethren, even though my father continually warned me that their teaching on the second coming was wrong. Then I moved to Kent and joined with the Brethren and there I met my wife who was converted at one of their camps.

I was there for 12 years. You may ask why I did not absorb their teachig after all that exposure? Well I asked questions and did not find the answers in the bible. I once attended a meeting on prophecy after which my wife remarked, "He said this would happen and then that would happen and so on, expecting it all to be written in the bible, but it just wasn't there"

We then moved again, and attended various churches and ended up in a Grace Baptist Church. When the pastor resigned we left and eventually joined our present church, and Evangelical Baptist Church. Apart from on here, I have n ever met an Historicist, except for my father, who left me a number of books.
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WQhy don't you take notrice of what the scripture says? It does not say it will be the worst, but there will not be any "SUCH AS."

There was never any treibulkation such as when the city was surrounded by an 'enemy' who was pleading with them to save their city and temple, and those in the city were fighting a civil war with three factions fighting between theirselves, and all the priests were murdered and those who had lately worn the robes and vestments of the priesthood had their bodies thrown naked into the streets and trampled upon. The house of archives holing the Jewish genealogies was burnt down and the sacrifice failed because no one could prove their right to be a priest. No there never was a triobulation SUCH AS that, never.


Hi Invicta,

Thanks for your response. I did take notice of the scripture...here it is again...

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You're correct...it does say "such as"...however, it doesn't stop there. It continues with "was not since the beginning of the world..."

In context, the tribulation that Jesus speaks of is so terrible, there won't be any "such as was not since" before it, and "nor ever shall be"...therefore, it will be the worst tribulation ever. Hence my use of the word "worst". As a preacher, part of my responsibility is to expound upon the scripture. I (nor any preacher that I know of) will only quote scripture for our sermon...without trying to explain it...without telling how it applies to our lives...without explaining what the scripture means...

Jesus is addressing his disciples, and telling them the "signs" that would precede his return. Granted, he is speaking to Jews about things that will happen in Israel; however, the context of verse 21 doesn't confine the tribulation to Israel, Jerusalem, and the Jews only...here's the verse again.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus is saying that the future tribulation will be so bad, that even nothing since the beginning of the world could even compare to it.

Let's think about this..."since the beginning of the world"
  1. There was no nation of Israel...until thousands of years...after the beginning of the world
  2. There wasn't even a Jew...until thousands of years...after the beginning of the world
  3. There wasn't a Jerusalem...until thousands of years...after the beginning of the world

Yet Jesus is saying that the future tribulation will be worse than any tribulation...since the beginning of the world.

I can think of one tribulation that was worse than what happened in 70 A.D. It was such a terrible tribulation than only one family in the whole world survived. It was so terrible that God said that he would never do it again...and it happened after the beginning of the world...but before the establishment of the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Jerusalem...and long before 70 A.D.

Was not the great flood a much more terrible tribulation than what happened in 70 A.D., or is Jesus a liar? Edited by No Nicolaitans
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The whole dispensational theory is an interpretetion based, not on scripture but on the teaching of the Plymouth Brethren of J N Darby and continued and added to by Scofield.

Wrong - dispensationalism has been taught from the beginning of the Church age until present.... Edited by Steve Schwenke
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