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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

What is the meaning here?


John81
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

When Mary Magdelene first saw Christ in the garden he indicated that he had yet to ascend. In other words, if Paradise had indeed been up at that time, then Christ hadn’t been there yet. This would not concur with what he told the thief.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ had testified to exactly where he would spend those three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I believe that that bears repeating. It doesn't matter if people surmise or opine over the meanings of soul, body, spirit and attempt to make them subject to their own vanities. We have 3 declarative statements that expressly and clearly state 3 elements of the being of Jesus, His bod was in the tomb of Joseph. His spirit went to the Father, and He said he would be in paradise that same day, he said he would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. It really doesn't matter if your theology doesn't fit the scenario. If it doesn't, then your theology is in need of change.

Adding Acts 2:27, 31 we have a solid understanding that Jesus was in soul, hell, in body the grave. That is not debatable, that is just plain scripture speaking.

So, onward and forward. For those that are interested, the 2nd part of a Biblical answer of the 3 days and nights.
________________________________________________________________________________________________


As I said previously, what does the OT give us as far as any indicators of where the OT saints awaited?

With this introduction let’s see if the Bible can thoroughly explain where Christ’s soul was during those three days and three nights.
Let’s begin in reverse order and see if the Bible confirms the fact that paradise was, indeed, down in the "heart of the earth." Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testament saints went when they died? An incident in I Samuel reveals one such example.

1 Samuel 28:11
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

There is no question as to the veracity of this passage. The witch at Endor was surprised because it was actually Samuel who came up and not one of her familiar spirits. This was not Samuel’s body, but his soul. His question to Saul indicated the direction of his travel and the consequences of Saul’s request. Samuel was "disquieted." Another passage in Job is also extremely telling.

Job 3:11
Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
Job was speaking of the death of his body at birth and of his "giving up the ghost" or having his spirit return to God. Remember the Holy Ghost is also called the Holy Spirit.

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
Although the bodies of the saints are also said to sleep, in the context of the next verses it is obvious that Job is speaking of more than just his body. These next verses show that Job must be speaking of his soul and that would parallel what Samuel said in the first passage about his being disquieted.


These next three verses indicate with whom Job would have expected to be if he had indeed died at birth. The verses show that he could not have been speaking of his body. That would have been an extraordinary burying place that encompassed "kings and counsellors of the earth" and "princes" who were rich and babies who had died early. This cannot be a reference to the body, but to his soul.

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.


17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
"There" the wicked cease from troubling." The wicked are "there" and can no longer cause trouble. The weary saved are "there" and can be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

There is much more evidence that Christ went down into the "heart of the earth." He had two jobs to do there. At his death Christ had two keys in his possession.

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He had two keys for two separate compartments which will be continued to be proven. When the Old Testament saints died their souls went down (as Samuel) to await their Savior. The lost, however, died and went to hell. Christ had the keys to both places. Keys would fit in gates. Specifically gates with bars.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(The Rock is Jesus, not Peter and I would hope that on this board I would not have to bear the proof of that out, but for the one who can't it, 1 Cor. 10:14; 1 Cor 3:11)

Let’s look at the last part - "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The identity of "it" in this verse is crucial. First of all, "it" is in hell. Hell has locked gates like any prison, but these gates will not prevail over "it." There has never been a time, and never will be a time where the Church is in hell. But the "Rock", the Lord Jesus Christ was there. When one understands that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against " the Rock, it makes perfect sense. There is no question that Christ descended into hell, into the heart of the earth. But he had the key to the gate so he could get out.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Since Christ is compared to Jonah, let’s see if we can learn anything from him.

Jonah 1:17
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

If Christ died, then Jonah died. I don't want to chase after another theme, but I would suggest a thorough reading of the text in Jonah.

Jonah 2:1
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Jonah died. He went from the "fish’s belly" to the "belly of hell." If this is the literal burning hell (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then Jonah’s prayers are similar to those of the "rich man" in hell in Luke, which we will look at shortly. The difference being that Jonah’s prayers are heard and answered. Again, he is an exception to the rule.

Jonah 2:3
For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

This obviously can be interpreted literally, as Jonah was in the ocean, but there is also another application.

Psalm 69:15
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.
The "pit" is under the water as well as under the land beneath our feet. But the earth is covered with more than three-quarters water so the reference is understandable.

Jonah 2:4
Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
Obviously God can see anyone, anywhere, so this casting "out of thy sight" must mean something else. It is a way of saying that the person is cut off from God. It is very much like "My God, my God, why has though forsaken me?" It is said about these idolaters in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 7:15
And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
I believe that this next verse is talking about both Jonah’s soul and body because of the more obvious parallel construction of the verse after it.

Jonah 2:6
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (Acts 2:27,31??!!)
The "bottoms of the mountains" would be where the mountain sits on the ocean’s floor. The whale could have taken his body there, but the next part is something else. Here Jonah says that the "earth with her bars was about me for ever." This is a reference to his soul locked in hell, not his being in a whale. This verse also is similar to those already cited in Acts, and here are other verses that are very similar. Remember "pit" refers to either compartment in the "underworld."

Isaiah 38:17
Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
The "grave" would represent physical death while "death" in that verse would be a reference to the soul. The souls of the dead in the Old Testament resided behind gates and bars whether they were in paradise (Abraham’s bosom) or hell. The Lord has never had any trouble disposing of gates and bars, and his keys utterly destroys their effectiveness.

Isaiah 45:1
Thus saith the LORD...
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Psalm 107:16
For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
Jonah was "busted out" of hell’s prison, but the Lord Jesus Christ had the keys to the gates and just walked out on his own.
Let’s look at another common passage with which we are familiar. We will read all the verses and comment when it is appropriate.

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lazarus died. The Bible doesn’t say what happened to his body, but as he had no one to care for him while alive so I doubt anyone cared for him in death. Possibly those dogs who licked his sores even ate him, as Jezebel was eaten. It was his soul that was carried by angel’s into Abraham’s bosom. But while the body of the dead rich man was pampered and buried, in death his soul was in agony.

Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
This one verse is very telling about the nature of a soul. The lost rich man in a burning hell has eyes with which he can see. He can speak and remember. And he can be in torment. When Samuel appeared to Saul he had all his cognizant abilities and could verbally communicate.
Now this rich man can "see" Abraham and Lazarus. The brethren who want paradise to be in heaven say that this sight is supernatural, in that the rich man can see Abraham and Lazarus across the light years of space, and that they can speak to each other with supernatural voices in order to communicate. The Bible, however, defines its own terms. The words "afar off" are used in two ways. Infrequently the phrase is used metaphorically as in "justice standeth afar off." But in the far majority of the cases it is used to refer to distances on the earth. In fact, there is a verse in Job that is strikingly similar to the verse above.

Job 2:12
And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.
By letting the Bible define itself we must conclude that hell and Abraham’s bosom are in earthly proximity. Close enough to be seen with human eyes, and to communicate with human voices.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
This is one of the verses used to prove that Abraham and Lazarus are is heaven. The "great gulf" being the distance between heaven and hell. But as shown previously "afar off" refers to earthly distances, and sight and a verbal conversation between two men that spans that great distance makes much less sense than just believing the total of the rest of the evidence that indicates that hell and Abraham's bosom (paradise) were in close proximity.

Well, another long post, and as I have learned, most folks don't read long posts, and at best do so superficially.

Unless otherwise asked, I'm gonna sign off on this thread. But suffice it to say, there are many verses that teach a literal hell, it had 2 compartments before the cross, it had 2 classes of people in it and at the death of Jesus he preached there, led one part of it out to glory and left the other there for future judgment. Ephesians 4 attests to this fact, Jude confirms it, 1 Peter says it was so, Jesus said he would go there and yet incredible as it may seem, people who claim to be bible believers reject the plain sense of the scriptures and apply themselves to make the scriptures of no effect.
Instead of believe the plain sense of scripture, they opt for a spiritual lesson that is subject to their own caprices and fail to bring their conclusions under the light of verses that plainly contradict their stance. One glaring example is Covenater. A man who rejects the 1000 year reign of Christ, rejects the triune nature of man, believes that God has predestined men by whim to an eternity in hell, a man who by all means should have been run off this board long ago, yet is permitted to continue to speak as if he is a serious theologian. He is a hack Calvinist and should be exposed as such.
This man states in all seriousness that the captivity led by Jesus captive was satan. Yet the same passage says in 5th grade English that Jesus ascended on high with the captivity!! According to Covenanters conclusion Jesus led satan to Heaven. I wouldn't let such a man teach in my nursery let alone on this board.

God bless,
Calvary.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Calvary, I read all of your long post. I will say, many of the long post, I fail to read.

Agree with much you say as you go from the old to the New.

I just don't get it when so many seemed so set that Jesus did not descend when the bible clearly tells us He did. Its almost as if they believe that had He descended into the earth that would keep Him from being the perfect Savior.

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I have a problem with the belief that paradise was 'in the heart of the earth.'

Nowhere in the Word of God can we find this phrase. We do, however, find that paradise is in the third heaven.

So where did the belief that paradise was in the heart of the Earth come from? Certainly not the Bible.


Read 1 Samuel 28 starting with verse 6 where Saul inquires of the Lord but doesn't get an answer and then goes to a woman in Endor with a familiar spirit to bring "up" Samuel. Look at the dialogue between Saul, the woman and Samuel. Take note to who is ascending out of the earth.

6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Samuel says "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" Where was Samuel prior to being brought up? He was in the heart of the earth and even told Saul that he and his sons would be with him the next day. I believe that Samuel was in paradise in the center of the earth. Jesus even told the thief "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" .... heart of the earth. As Jesus had prophesied prior to His death.

Matthew 12:40 for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Edited by Kleptes
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The sons of God in Job 38 that sang praises at the creation of the Earth were clearly some kind of angelic beings. Why is it so hard then to reason that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were not the same thing?

I read a book by Carl Lackey on angels and he sarcastically asked (you all know I would never be sarcastic :icon_smile: ), "Are we to concluded from Genesis 6 that when Christians marry lost girls they have giants for babies?"


Carl Lackey needs to reread Genesis 6. specifically verse 4.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It says giants first and then say also after that mighty men. So those sons of God didn't bare giants when they married the daughters of men,but rather children, who became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. All of Genesis 6 is talking of the wickedness of man and man alone.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You are right; the giants cannot be the children. Too many read right over the fact that the giants and the mighty men were contemporaries; The mighty men didn't exist later in time and the term "after that" cannot mean later in time because the whole story takes place "in those days". The English word "after" is used other ways than just for "later in time"...For example,.David was "a man after God's own heart" and the animals produced "after his kind". "Giants", in the Word of God are always something feared and considered a formidible force; and "in accordance with" that, the sons of God AKA beleivers "copied" or "conformed" to that warrior type lifestyle when they became mighty men. Their world was "filled with violence" the Bible says. The "giants" were simply tall people and they weren't supernatural beings anymore than the giants the Hebrew spies were afraid of in the land of Canaan. Those were a formidable force too.

World English Dictionary
after (ˈɑːftə) dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif prep 1. following in time; in succession to: after dinner ; time after time 2. following; behind: they entered one after another 3. in pursuit or search of: chasing after a thief ; he's only after money 4. concerning: to inquire after his health 5. considering: after what you have done, you shouldn't complain 6. next in excellence or importance to: he ranked Jonson after Shakespeare 7. in imitation of; in the manner of: a statue after classical models 8.
in accordance with or in conformity to: a man after her own heart
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Unless otherwise asked, I'm gonna sign off on this thread. But suffice it to say, there are many verses that teach a literal hell, it had 2 compartments before the cross, it had 2 classes of people in it and at the death of Jesus he preached there, led one part of it out to glory and left the other there for future judgment. Ephesians 4 attests to this fact, Jude confirms it, 1 Peter says it was so, Jesus said he would go there and yet incredible as it may seem, people who claim to be bible believers reject the plain sense of the scriptures and apply themselves to make the scriptures of no effect.
Instead of believe the plain sense of scripture, they opt for a spiritual lesson that is subject to their own caprices and fail to bring their conclusions under the light of verses that plainly contradict their stance. One glaring example is Covenater. A man who rejects the 1000 year reign of Christ, rejects the triune nature of man, believes that God has predestined men by whim to an eternity in hell, a man who by all means should have been run off this board long ago, yet is permitted to continue to speak as if he is a serious theologian. He is a hack Calvinist and should be exposed as such.
This man states in all seriousness that the captivity led by Jesus captive was satan. Yet the same passage says in 5th grade English that Jesus ascended on high with the captivity!! According to Covenanters conclusion Jesus led satan to Heaven. I wouldn't let such a man teach in my nursery let alone on this board.


Thanks for the accolade :wink Calvary. Now, is your post sound exegesis, or is it largely eisegesis - the practice of the sects to state a teaching & "prove it" by quoting lots of unrelated Scripture?

e.g. you quote from Job to prove your teaching:

Job 3:11
Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
Job was speaking of the death of his body at birth and of his "giving up the ghost" or having his spirit return to God. Remember the Holy Ghost is also called the Holy Spirit.

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
Although the bodies of the saints are also said to sleep, in the context of the next verses it is obvious that Job is speaking of more than just his body. These next verses show that Job must be speaking of his soul and that would parallel what Samuel said in the first passage about his being disquieted.

These next three verses indicate with whom Job would have expected to be if he had indeed died at birth. The verses show that he could not have been speaking of his body. That would have been an extraordinary burying place that encompassed "kings and counsellors of the earth" and "princes" who were rich and babies who had died early. This cannot be a reference to the body, but to his soul.


On the contrary, Job makes his initial understanding very clear. Scripture is progressive in its revelation, & in Job the argument leads to increasing clarification of, among other things, the nature of death.

Job's initial understanding of death is categorically declared in Job 7:
8The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

His understanding of the state of the dead is as if they had not been born:
1018Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
That is why stillborn babies & kings lie together - in the grave, in the earth. Not physically together, but all are dead & buried. They are not conscious of anything. Much better than being gravely ill. Death is seen as the end of suffering.

Job continues to meditate & postulate & wonder if the dead have a future:
1412So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

His understanding increases, & we read that glorious statement in 19:
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Even so, his hope is thus in the Redeemer & the resurrection, not in a conscious afterlife.

Note that Job sees no difference between spirit & soul - he uses them as equivalent:
7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Elihu, while still accusing Job, makes some wonderful Gospel statements:
33:14For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
20So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
22Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Clearly the pit is more than a physical grave, because the (soul of) repentant sinner is delivered from it. We are delivered from the pit of hell. We will only be delivered from the physical grave at the resurrection. In Job 33, pit is not sheol.

We need also to note that sheol has several translations: grave 31, hell 31, pit 3 and that when the NT writers quote the OT, they use hades for sheol. In Acts 2, although hades is translated hell, Peter is quoting Psalm 16, & sheol is not always a place of torment.

A lot of further study would be needed, but Calvary has not proved the point he is making. Whether I have, I leave to others to consider.

I welcome these opportunities to search the Scriptures together - there is so much to learn.
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Psalm 40:1 ¶ «To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.» I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Is this connected?

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Psalm 40:1 ¶ «To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.» I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Is this connected?

Note 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Were David's enemies specifically aiming at his soul, rather than his body? Possibly - to destroy his faith & discredit him as the godly leader of the people. But I think we need to be practical, & to spiritualise such thoughts & apply them to our own situation whatever it may be. Certainly there are many faith-destroying influences around us that would enhance the pleasures of the flesh & the mind. We are not in physical danger as David constantly was. Many of our brethren are in such danger & families suffer when a pastor is imprisoned.

We must therefore believe David's prayers & make them our own. That in no way casts doubt on the word of God in its context.
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
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