What is the meaning here?

[Brother Rick]

You're grasping at straws, SFIC. "To day" doesn't mean "today"?

[Brother Rick]

They were saved the same way we were, 'Grace,' not obedience.

I can go with that. No one gets to Heaven outside of the grace of God in one way or another. That's why I don't like the term "the dispensation of Grace." God's grace is in every dispensation!

They were saved by obedience to what?

Whatever God happened to tell them at the time. Just like we're told to trust Christ, they were told things as well.

One thing I do know: they were not told to trust Christ as we are today. You will not find a single example of someone in the Old Testament preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the atonement of Calvary, a very common theme in the New Testament. The twelve closest men to Christ, the twelve apostles, didn't even understand the idea of the blood atonement - something you must understand to be saved today according to I Corinthians 15.

Luke 18:31-34, "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

I don't claim to be an expert at explaining how people were "saved" in the Old Testament, but it's very clear that it's not identical to how it is today. I've heard good explanations that it was by faith, and others that it was a combination of faith and works. But there is absolutely no Scriptural evidence to prove that they were saved by "looking forward to the cross." How could people hundreds of years before Christ be saved by “looking forward to the cross” and yet John, Peter, and James didn’t “get it?” Edited December 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

Really?
Not every person who calls on the Lord Jesus Christ understands all the details at that moment in time.


Yes, really. Your intent was to plead ignorance for people and yet they can be saved. My direct quote from Luke 18 demonstrates that the disciples did not understand the elements of the gospel as declared by Paul as essential to salvation, i.e The death, burial and resurrection of Christ. My context was clear. Your reply was to my context, so again, you are in grave error if you believe someone can be saved without understanding the death burial and resurrection of Christ. I don't believe you would agree with that, I just think you need to have better reading comprehension. Ok? No one could be saved in the NT sense with no understanding of the details of the gospel which Paul outlines in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No one.

You don't know my intent.

My direct quote from Luke 18 demonstrates that the disciples did not understand the elements of the gospel as declared by Paul as essential to salvation,

Yes sir, you are correct, The disciples did not understand the elements of the Gospel until later; and I already alluded to that fact. But the fact remains: those disciples had believed On Jesus Christ.........Here are a couple of verses for you......
Matthew16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Did Peter know all about the death, the burial, and the resurrection at this point? But was he not a believer? and wasn't his faith In the PERSON of the Lord Jesus Christ? Tell me; was Peter a lost man when he said the words above? When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that person will continue to learn more of the TRUTHS in God's Word and if He is truly born again He will accept those truths...BUT* when he hears questionable things like "angels marrying humans", he will SEEK the truth of that matter instead of just swallowing everything hook line and sinker

[Brother Rick]

I agree that people were saved by faith in Christ while He was on the Earth according to the examples you've given, HS. It's very clear all throughout John that people were saved by believing on Jesus. Everyone that believed in Jesus before the cross also believed on him after the cross according to the gospel in I Cor. 15.

However, are you saying that people can be saved today without an understanding that Jesus paid the penalty for their sins on the cross, HS? The reason why I say that is because they were saved without an understanding of the death, burial, and resurrection before the cross.

The only way to say that people were saved the same way before the cross as they were saved after the cross is to say that people today do not need to understand the gospel of I Cor. 15 to be saved - because they did not understand it before Calvary!

Edited December 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Calvary]

You don't know my intent.

Yes sir, you are correct, The disciples did not understand the elements of the Gospel until later; and I already alluded to that fact. But the fact remains: those disciples had believed On Jesus Christ.........Here are a couple of verses for you......
Matthew16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Did Peter know all about the death, the burial, and the resurrection at this point? But was he not a believer? and wasn't his faith In the PERSON of the Lord Jesus Christ? Tell me; was Peter a lost man when he said the words above? When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that person will continue to learn more of the TRUTHS in God's Word and if He is truly born again He will accept those truths...BUT* when he hears questionable things like "angels marrying humans", he will SEEK the truth of that matter instead of just swallowing everything hook line and sinker

Actually I can ascertain your intent very well based upon the context of what we were talking about. It's called simple conversation.

Salvation in the NT isn't belief in a person, it faith that the finished work of Jesus on Calvary is sufficient to bear my sin debt. Peter declared a truth of OT implications in Matthew 16, he is not declaring his own personal faith in the finished work of Christ as it had not been yet finished. The real issue is continuing to read into passages such as you quoted some NT doctrine that had not been revealed at that time, and further complicating your comprehensive skills is making a historical register a doctrine. What Matthew 16 says is historically true as to what Peter said, it bears nothing on what Peter believed at that point, the same Peter that later denied the Christ, the same Peter that later when he heard that Jesus would die at the hands of sinners exclaimed God forbid! I mean really, God forbid that Jesus be my sin bearer?
Peter certainly was a believer in Matthew 16, but as to what he believed is a best very debatable. Peter in Matthew 16 was a full law observing, pork abstaining, beard wearing robe having Jew. Later he received the Holy Spirit, but in Matthew 16, nope.
Heartstrings, you continue to compound issues and bundle them into part and parcel, but we are really talking about at least 5 or 6 different things now on this thread.

1. Sons of God
2. Angels as sons of God.
3. Angels cohabitation with men (I didn't go there)
4. OT salvation as contrasted with NT salvation.
5. Location of Paradise.
6. Did Jesus go to hell and preach.
7. What is required for NT salvation.

Most of this is due to your bouncing around as you understand the next issue and trying to preempt an argument. But at least you see they are tied together somehow.

Let's just continue to be kind to one another.

God bless,
Calvary

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Sorry, my bad. I should have looked it up instead relying in memory. But don't it mean the same thing brother?

Not necessarily. It can mean "to the day".

And is not a day with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day? Edited December 14, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Brother Rick]

1. Sons of God
2. Angels as sons of God.
3. Angels cohabitation with men (I didn't go there)
4. OT salvation as contrasted with NT salvation.
5. Location of Paradise.
6. Did Jesus go to hell and preach.
7. What is required for NT salvation.

This thread is great! It should definitly win the thread of the year award!

[Brother Rick]

And is not a day with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day?

That's a stretch that would give a Preterist a hernia! (Just playing with you Ian, I know you're reading this... ) Edited December 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Calvary]

Not necessarily. It can mean "to the day".

And is not a day with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day?

So no comment on Psalms 63 or Ephesians 4? That might help explain a lot. Jesus said to day, but it could only make sense if Ephesians 4 is thrown in as a cross ref. And an understanding of the triune nature of Jesus. His body went int the ground, his spirit returned unto the Father (into thy hands i commend...) and his soul? Ahhh, now we have some more talking to do don't we?

[Calvary]

Standing firm, can you show me an OT verse where an Israelite had an heavenly hope as you suggested in your reply to heart?
Luke 1 gives a very detailed expectation for the Jew.

Look:

Luke 1
⁶⁷And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
⁶⁸Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
⁶⁹And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
⁷⁰As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
⁷¹That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
⁷²To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
⁷³The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
⁷⁴That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

Consider the context:

¹⁰Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
¹¹Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
¹²Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.(Isaiah)

Or:

²⁷And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
²⁸And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.(Ezekiel 34)

Israel hoped for the land of milk and honey, not heaven or a Savior that would pardon as much as a physical deliver from their enemies. That is their messiah. I can not find a heavenly hope for Israel in the OT, unless of course folks go making spiritual applications while preaching. But Canaan is not heaven my friend, neither is the Red Sea Hell.

Israel had no such hope as you have. No Jew was waiting for a Messiah that would die for his sins and bring them to glory.

God bless,
Calvary

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[Brother Rick]

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Amen brother, he was looking for a King and His Kingdom... but not a King and His cross.

[Covenanter]

Standing firm, can you show me an OT verse where an Israelite had an heavenly hope as you suggested in your reply to heart?

Exodus 3:⁶Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Isaiah 57:¹The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
²He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Psalm 73:²³Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
²⁴Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
²⁵Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
²⁶My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

Israel had no such hope as you have. No Jew was waiting for a Messiah that would die for his sins and bring them to glory.

Isaiah 53:⁴Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
⁵But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
⁶All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[Covenanter]

Israel had no such hope as you have. No Jew was waiting for a Messiah that would die for his sins and bring them to glory.

Jesus could plainly teach from the OT Scriptures:

Luke 2:³⁴And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
³⁵(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

24:²⁵Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
²⁶Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
²⁷And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
....
⁴⁴And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
⁴⁵Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
⁴⁶And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
⁴⁷And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The Jews may not have had that hope - but we can read what God was revealing through the prophets. Our understanding should not be as unbelieving Jews, but with the mind of Christ.

[Calvary]

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Amazing what a little context can do for you. You seemed to over look verses 8 and 9.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

This city you claim is heaven is not. Have you considered Ezekiel 40-48? Hmm. That's a lot of scripture to pass over and make no connection to Hebrews 11:10.
The New Jerusalem has 12 gates all with names on them, and none of them are Abraham. He is not connected with New Jerusalem. The inhabitants of that city are said to be "THE LAMB"S WIFE". Abraham was never a part of that wife any more than John the Baptist.

Watch:

Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

How many measures was New Jerusalem? Things different are not the same.

I don't expect an answer. You still haven't looked at Psalms 63, or answered the questions I asked you about who was the captivity, who led them, when, where where they, and where did they go?
That's why this thread is so confabulated and confusing, you guys jump around from topic to topic without ever discussing the last post. Worse then JW's. lol But I'm having fun. It's like teaching in the nursery. And I like kids.

God bless,
Calvary