What is the meaning here?

[Brother Rick]

Since when does 'heart of the earth' translate to 'paradise'?

God's Word tells us where paradise is, in the third heaven. Are you saying that the third heaven is in the heart of the earth?

Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Then the verse Calvary quoted shows you that He went to the heart of the Earth for the next three days. So obviously at the time Paradise was in the heart of the Earth, but now it's not. Just like there was a time when Abraham was in the heart of the Earth, that is Paradise, with a great gulf between him and the lost in Hell according to Luke 16.

Paradise is no longer in the heart of the Earth, but it was at one time. You are correct in the sense that now it is in the third Heaven, but it wasn't before Christ led captivity captive. Remember when the bodies of the saints arose around the time of Calvary? A lot of unusual things happened following Calvary, and one of them was the entire population of Paradise being moved to Heaven.

They were resting in Paradise, waiting for the Messiah.

The price had finally been paid for them, they could go home. Edited December 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That is NT salvation in a precise and clear form. One must hear the gospel before they can believe. That is where you assume that a son of God in the OT has believed what you beleive. That is not only ludicrous, it is impossible.

Revisiting 1 Peter 1:10-11, OT prophets did not understand any salvation that was by faith alone in the completed sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Revelation 19 gives us the correct Bible with Bible view, and tells us that Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, This does not prove that they knew that this was the Spirit of Christ, but is only a declaration of Peter that it was actually so. It simply declares that they were speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it says nothing more and your skewered reasoning concludes the exact opposite of what the text is teaching! Peter says in verse 8 that his audience (NT Christians) has believed on Jesus and that they rejoice for that. Then he JUXTAPOSES their faith and salvation with that of the ones who verily gave the prophecies. He states in clear terms that we (NT Christians ) have received the END OF OUR FAITH, THE SALVATION OF OUR SOULS! Peter further declares that the OT prophet preached a grace that would come to us, though they possessed it not, and he says the prophet could not distinguish the difference between the 2 comings of Christ, His Advent and His Second Coming. There is nothing to indicate that the prophet had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and your fixating upon a phrase in the text to the exclusion of the context has served only to present yourself with a pretext.

I repeat, again, your free dealing with context has led you into an erroneous conclusion.

Looking at the Ephesians 1 again - then compare to John 1:12, which you are fond of quoting. In order to become a son of God one must receive the Lord Jesus. No OT saint ever received a Savior that had not yet died for his sins. Paul equates receiving the gospel with believing the simple components of the message, 1, that Jesus died for your sins, according to the scriptures, that 2, he was buried and 3, he rose again. Paul says that by believing THAT message one could be saved and stand. Your insistence that in the OT there were sons of God in the sense of John 1, or 1 John is very poor reasoning. 1 Peter is stating that these OT prophets could not distinguish the significance of the sufferings of Christ or the glory to follow. His sufferings were the cross, his glory is not yet been fulfilled. The simple question is if one could not grasp the significance of the sufferings of Christ how does one believe on that for salvation? It is none other than Paul that declares that a belief on that gospel message is essential for salvation. Yet you have people saved that do not meet the requirements of NT salvation having not heard this message, therefore having not believed what is required and yet you commend to them ignorance while being saved. You stated that many folks get saved without understanding the gospel. The Bible says that you are dead wrong on that assertion. No one could be saved in the NT sense without having heard the message of the gospel and believing that message.

God bless,
Calvary

Really?

Not every person who calls on the Lord Jesus Christ understands all the details at that moment in time.

[heartstrings]

Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Then the verse Calvary quoted shows you that He went to the heart of the Earth for the next three days. So obviously at the time Paradise was in the heart of the Earth, but now it's not. Just like there was a time when Abraham was in the heart of the Earth, that is Paradise, with a great gulf between him and the lost in Hell according to Luke 16.

Paradise is no longer in the heart of the Earth, but it was at one time. You are correct in the sense that now it is in the third Heaven, but it wasn't before Christ led captivity captive. Remember when the bodies of the saints arose around the time of Calvary? A lot of unusual things happened following Calvary, and one of them was the entire population of Paradise being moved to Heaven.

They were resting in Paradise, waiting for the Messiah.

The price had finally been paid for them, they could go home.

These "saints" you speak of being in "Paradise" before it was moved:: how did they merit being there? Why weren't they in Hell with the rich man who was mentioned in Luke 16? Specifically, why was Abraham in Paradise instead of Hell? Edited December 14, 2011 by heartstrings

[Brother Rick]

Ha! This thread has the potential to go everywhere!

They were saved the same way we are: obedience.

Rom. 6:17, "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

I John 3:23, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Now I know that you know that I think there's a little more to it than just that, but I'll leave it there for now. :D

Edited December 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I agree, they were not the fallen angels. Jude clearly tells us that the fallen angels are reserved unto the day of judgment in chains of darkness.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Then the verse Calvary quoted shows you that He went to the heart of the Earth for the next three days. So obviously at the time Paradise was in the heart of the Earth, but now it's not. Just like there was a time when Abraham was in the heart of the Earth, that is Paradise, with a great gulf between him and the lost in Hell according to Luke 16.

Paradise is no longer in the heart of the Earth, but it was at one time. You are correct in the sense that now it is in the third Heaven, but it wasn't before Christ led captivity captive. Remember when the bodies of the saints arose around the time of Calvary? A lot of unusual things happened following Calvary, and one of them was the entire population of Paradise being moved to Heaven.

They were resting in Paradise, waiting for the Messiah.

The price had finally been paid for them, they could go home.

No, Scripture does not show that paradise was in the heart of the earth. It nowhere implies it. According to Luke 16, the souls were resting in Abraham's Bosom. There is no mention in the Word of God of souls resting in paradise.

Why add to Scripture? Edited December 14, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[heartstrings]

Ha! This thread has the potential to go everywhere!

They were saved the same way we are: obedience.

Rom. 6:17, "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

I John 3:23, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Now I know that you know that I think there's a little more to it than just that, but I'll leave it there for now.

They were saved by obedience to what?

[heartstrings]

No, Scripture does not show that paradise was in the heart of the earth. It nowhere implies it. According to Luke 16, the souls were resting in Abraham's Bosom. There is no mention in the Word of God of souls resting in paradise.

Why add to Scripture?

The Bible says that the son of man would be "three days and three nights" in the "heart of the earth".(Matthew 12:40) Just before Jesus died, He told the thief on the cross "THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in 'paradise'". So if Jesus was going straight to the "heart of the earth" and that very day He would be in "Paradise", where must we conclude that "Paradise" was?

[Calvary]

No, Scripture does not show that paradise was in the heart of the earth. It nowhere implies it. According to Luke 16, the souls were resting in Abraham's Bosom. There is no mention in the Word of God of souls resting in paradise.

Why add to Scripture?

⁸Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
⁹(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Who is the captivity? Where were they led from? Who led them? When? Where did He lead them?

Answer that and ....

²²And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
²³And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

²⁶And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Edited December 14, 2011 by Calvary

[JerryNumbers]

Ha! This thread has the potential to go everywhere!

They were saved the same way we are: obedience.

Rom. 6:17, "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

I John 3:23, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Now I know that you know that I think there's a little more to it than just that, but I'll leave it there for now.

They were saved the same way we were, 'Grace,' not obedience.

[JerryNumbers]

Seems someone is putting the cart before the horse, no one entered heaven until Jesus, He was the 1st fruit, & of course those that finally got there were behind Him.

[Calvary]

Really?
Not every person who calls on the Lord Jesus Christ understands all the details at that moment in time.


Yes, really. Your intent was to plead ignorance for people and yet they can be saved. My direct quote from Luke 18 demonstrates that the disciples did not understand the elements of the gospel as declared by Paul as essential to salvation, i.e The death, burial and resurrection of Christ. My context was clear. Your reply was to my context, so again, you are in grave error if you believe someone can be saved without understanding the death burial and resurrection of Christ. I don't believe you would agree with that, I just think you need to have better reading comprehension. Ok? No one could be saved in the NT sense with no understanding of the details of the gospel which Paul outlines in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No one.

[Calvary]

Seems someone is putting the cart before the horse, no one entered heaven until Jesus, He was the 1st fruit, & of course those that finally got there were behind Him.

I think Moses was there. And Elijah was clearly taken to glory. Enoch made it. I think that there were many in heaven before the Lord, because it was God the Father that looked forward to the cross, (Romans 3:25) not individuals as is so often falsely taught.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The Bible says that the son of man would be "three days and three nights" in the "heart of the earth".(Matthew 12:40) Just before Jesus died, He told the thief on the cross "THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in 'paradise'". So if Jesus was going straight to the "heart of the earth" and that very day He would be in "Paradise", where must we conclude that "Paradise" was?

Not sure what Bible version you quoted there, but the King James does not say "This day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

What it says is:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

To day can mean to the day, not necessarily the present 24 hour period one is living in.
The
If, in the heart of the earth, one was living in paradise, (a garden of exceptional beauty and life) why would anyone want to leave such a place? The patriarchs of old never spoke of longing to be buried in the heart of the earth, no, they longed for the heavenly.

Paradise is in the third heaven, just where it has always been. Edited December 14, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[heartstrings]

Not sure what Bible version you quoted there, but the King James does not say "This day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

What it says is:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

To day can mean to the day, not necessarily the present 24 hour period one is living in.
The
If, in the heart of the earth, one was living in paradise, (a garden of exceptional beauty and life) why would anyone want to leave such a place? The patriarchs of old never spoke of longing to be buried in the heart of the earth, no, they longed for the heavenly.

Paradise is in the third heaven, just where it has always been.

Sorry, my bad. I should have looked it up instead relying in memory. But don't it mean the same thing brother?