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What is the meaning here?


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So, back on the topic.....The Bible says that Jesus preached to "the spirits in prison" Which spirits? The spirits which were disobedient. When were they disobedient? "WHEN the ark was preparing" When was the ark preparing? "In the days of Noah" . Who was alive during the time the ark was preparing? We have at least two(2) named individuals who were living "in those days": Their names were Methuselah and Lamech(and no doubt there were many more). These two men are also mentioned as the ancestors of Christ: they were believers....When Jesus died on the cross, and before "many of the dead arose" from the graves, these two men were not in "Heaven": so where were they? Before we answer that, go back to Genesis 6:

In Genesis 6, who did God say was "perfect in his generations" and "walked with God"? It never mentions Methuselah and Lamech even though they were beleivers who were ALIVE and breathing during the 120 years "when the ark was preparing".(did I mention that already?) What were these guys doing during this time while Noah was getting the ark ready? They must have been being "disobedient". Does it mention what they were doing? Yes it actually does. it says "they took them wives of all" and evidently God wasn't happy about that. In Genesis 5 it says they were living for hundreds of years "begatting" and in Genesis 6 it explains what all that "begatting" resulted in. They and their progeny became "mighty men" by sheer numbers of offspring, and so becoming very powerful. When you "marry" and "begat" for several hundred years, how many generations would be "gendered" during your lifetime? And when you practice "GIVING" in marriage", how many political alliances can you make? And if you live long enough to see your family procreate for hundreds of years, how powerful a nation would you amass politically, economically and militarily?

So Instead of "walking with God" as their grandson/son Noah was doing, these two men(at least) were living for self and the world. That's the 'gist' of the "sons of God" story as I perceive it. The "angels cohabiting with women" story(as my former pastor called it) is sensational and exciting but I find no backing for it in the KIng James Bible. An awful lot of folks just believe it as gospel because Dr. Bottlestopper or whoever said it, Many basically just accept it without even bothering to dig in and study it for themselves. Back to the subject, In my opinion, until proven otherwise, is that Jesus was preaching to these "sons of God" of Genesis 5 and 6.

Well presented!
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Within the pages of the bible there is so many that if the verse does not fit what they want to believe, they try to make it say something else. You best believe Luke 16, & not explain it away.

Right.
Lazarus and he rich man were real persons and the rich man is burning in Hell.
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Gonna take a stab at some more study. @ Covenanter, you sir are a boor. You were insulting and I honestly have serious questions about your ability to read with comprehension. I am anti KJB? Wow, that's all I can say. If you came away from my post thinking I am anti KJB you clearly can't read very well.

So, the 3 days and nights of Jesus after His death. That might help clear some issues up. I am seeing the thread weave it's way to this subject, and it would be helpful in finding the answers to what did Jesus preach, to whom did he preach, when did he preach, where was Jesus, what is paradise, where is paradise, etc...

The Bible says we are 3 parts. Body, soul and spirit. (many verses I'll print out here, many I won't, I'll just take your word for it that you read them) 1 Thess. 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 both indicate the nature of man. Both mention soul AND spirit, and these verses do NOT equate them as synonymous, as many OT verse might.

According to the Bible his body, soul, and spirit each went to different places. His body was placed into the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea.

Matthew 27:57
When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Vs. 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
There is His body. Any disagreement? Good.

His spirit returned to God the Father.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
There is His spirit. Any disagreement? Good.

Now lets look at some statements about the whereabouts of His soul. Here we may not find total agreement.

Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Christ told the thief who believed on him, that he and Christ would be in paradise together that day. This must be a reference to Christ’s soul, as we already know the whereabouts of his body and spirit.

Paul mentions being caught up to paradise but this was of course after the resurrection of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

When Mary Magdelene first saw Christ in the garden he indicated that he had yet to ascend. In other words, if Paradise had indeed been up at that time, then Christ hadn’t been there yet. This would not concur with what he told the thief.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ had testified to exactly where he would spend those three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I think that thus far, so good.

Some folks teach that the "heart of the earth" was merely the grave. And that the verse in Matthew is a ref to His body, not His soul. You have to change other scriptures to fit that mindset. In fact our friend Covenanter completely ignored the next 2 verses I'm going to quote since they didn't fit his theology.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I think that these are definitive verses that clearly state that Jesus' soul went to hell, His body rose from the grave. NEITHER, makes the juxtaposition of a comparison. His souls didn't stay in hell and NEITHER did his body decay. 2 things, 2 outcomes, 2 entities. Body AND soul.

Many of the brethren teach that Jesus did not go to hell. They make the word hell and grave the same and teach by proxy a JW theology. That hell is the grave. They do that by forcing a Greek definition of Hades upon a Hebrew word Sheol.

Some of the brethren who use this tact also believe that Christ’s soul never went down at all. They believe that paradise has always been up and that this is where Christ and the thief went.

In the Old Testament the Hebrew word "sheol" refers to the place of the dead and is not perfectly synonymous with the English word "hell." Therefore, it is variously and correctly translated as "hell", "grave", or "pit." When Job prayed (Job 14:13) to God to hide him in the grave (sheol), he was not asking to be sent to hell. The King James translators, under God’s specific direction, translated each "sheol" as the Lord would have it, so that we might understand what he would have us know.
"Hades," on the other hand, is consistently translated as "hell," with one exception in I Corinthians 15:55 where it is translated as "grave." Yet even in this exception it is still identified with the enemy and is not a neutral term for the place of the dead. The English word "hell" is used twenty-two times in the New Testament. In seven of those verses the word "fire" actually occurs while in the others it is absolutely implied. Biblically speaking "hades" is synonymous with the English word "hell" and is not synonymous with the neutral Hebrew word "sheol" the place of all the dead.

People who equate "sheol" with "hades" say that the English word "hell" is the name of the entire underworld, and that while Christ went down he went to Abraham’s bosom and never to the burning hell. These brethren admit to Christ’s descent but they must change the English Bible definition of the word "hell" in order to keep him from the flames.
As King James Bible believers both of these tact's are unacceptable The Greek is never an improvement on the plain English, and the English word must be defined by the Bible itself. With this introduction let’s see if the Bible can thoroughly explain where Christ’s soul was during those three days and three nights.

Let’s begin in reverse order and see if the Bible confirms the fact that paradise was, indeed, down in the "heart of the earth." Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testament saints went when they died?

Realizing that this is already a long post, I will call it quits for now. I'll call this Part 1. Lord willing I'll post Part 2 tomorrow. If anyone cares that is. lol

God bless,
Calvary

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I have posted this on the

Fascinating discussion - & a possible relevance is seen in the discussion on 1 Peter 3
18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19
By which also he we
nt
and preached u
nt
o the spirits in prison;

20
Which sometime were dis
ob
edie
nt
, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


But the logic of Calvary's argument (#139) is that Man is tripartite, & that at death:
"According to the Bible his body, soul, and spirit each we
nt
to differe
nt
places.

His body was placed i
nt
o the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea.
"

"his spirit returned to his Father "

"...
paradise was, indeed,
down
in the
"heart of the earth."

Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testame
nt
sai
nt
s we
nt
when they died? "


To be fair, he has promised a further post.

The obvious problem is that Peter says:
by the Spirit:
19
By which also he we
nt
and preached u
nt
o the spirits in prison;

whereas by Calvary's logic, at death it was Jesus' soul that descended to hell.


The trichotomy "proof" texts (1 Thes. 5 & Heb. 4) suffer from the problem that the great command indicate that man is tetrapartite. Jesus adds "mind" to heart, soul & strength, while the understands "mind" as "understanding." But "spirit" is not mentioned.

Different words are being used. Is the "heart" different from soul & spirit - & mind? Does Paul imply a significant difference by omitting heart & mind? Surely these terms are to some extent being used interchangeably. We need to remember that that same word is used for spirit, breath & ghost, so that James can say the body without the spirit is dead which applies to man & animals.

You are trying to be precise where Scripture is not - you are putting Jesus' soul in hell-fire, and in paradise with the redeemed malefactor, at the same time. I still maintain that he preached to the living disobedient antediluvians, who are now spirits in prison - hell.

And you did "correct" the KJV using the Amplified version:
The captives are "vanquished foes" according to the Amplified version, but according to our old friend Matthew Henry, the captives are sin, death and the devil.


I think you are trying to make a point that Scripture does not.
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When Mary Magdelene first saw Christ in the garden he indicated that he had yet to ascend. In other words, if Paradise had indeed been up at that time, then Christ hadn’t been there yet. This would not concur with what he told the thief.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ had testified to exactly where he would spend those three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I believe that that bears repeating. It doesn't matter if people surmise or opine over the meanings of soul, body, spirit and attempt to make them subject to their own vanities. We have 3 declarative statements that expressly and clearly state 3 elements of the being of Jesus, His bod was in the tomb of Joseph. His spirit went to the Father, and He said he would be in paradise that same day, he said he would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. It really doesn't matter if your theology doesn't fit the scenario. If it doesn't, then your theology is in need of change.

Adding Acts 2:27, 31 we have a solid understanding that Jesus was in soul, hell, in body the grave. That is not debatable, that is just plain scripture speaking.

So, onward and forward. For those that are interested, the 2nd part of a Biblical answer of the 3 days and nights.
________________________________________________________________________________________________


As I said previously, what does the OT give us as far as any indicators of where the OT saints awaited?

With this introduction let’s see if the Bible can thoroughly explain where Christ’s soul was during those three days and three nights.
Let’s begin in reverse order and see if the Bible confirms the fact that paradise was, indeed, down in the "heart of the earth." Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testament saints went when they died? An incident in I Samuel reveals one such example.

1 Samuel 28:11
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

There is no question as to the veracity of this passage. The witch at Endor was surprised because it was actually Samuel who came up and not one of her familiar spirits. This was not Samuel’s body, but his soul. His question to Saul indicated the direction of his travel and the consequences of Saul’s request. Samuel was "disquieted." Another passage in Job is also extremely telling.

Job 3:11
Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
Job was speaking of the death of his body at birth and of his "giving up the ghost" or having his spirit return to God. Remember the Holy Ghost is also called the Holy Spirit.

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
Although the bodies of the saints are also said to sleep, in the context of the next verses it is obvious that Job is speaking of more than just his body. These next verses show that Job must be speaking of his soul and that would parallel what Samuel said in the first passage about his being disquieted.


These next three verses indicate with whom Job would have expected to be if he had indeed died at birth. The verses show that he could not have been speaking of his body. That would have been an extraordinary burying place that encompassed "kings and counsellors of the earth" and "princes" who were rich and babies who had died early. This cannot be a reference to the body, but to his soul.

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.


17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
"There" the wicked cease from troubling." The wicked are "there" and can no longer cause trouble. The weary saved are "there" and can be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

There is much more evidence that Christ went down into the "heart of the earth." He had two jobs to do there. At his death Christ had two keys in his possession.

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He had two keys for two separate compartments which will be continued to be proven. When the Old Testament saints died their souls went down (as Samuel) to await their Savior. The lost, however, died and went to hell. Christ had the keys to both places. Keys would fit in gates. Specifically gates with bars.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(The Rock is Jesus, not Peter and I would hope that on this board I would not have to bear the proof of that out, but for the one who can't it, 1 Cor. 10:14; 1 Cor 3:11)

Let’s look at the last part - "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The identity of "it" in this verse is crucial. First of all, "it" is in hell. Hell has locked gates like any prison, but these gates will not prevail over "it." There has never been a time, and never will be a time where the Church is in hell. But the "Rock", the Lord Jesus Christ was there. When one understands that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against " the Rock, it makes perfect sense. There is no question that Christ descended into hell, into the heart of the earth. But he had the key to the gate so he could get out.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Since Christ is compared to Jonah, let’s see if we can learn anything from him.

Jonah 1:17
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

If Christ died, then Jonah died. I don't want to chase after another theme, but I would suggest a thorough reading of the text in Jonah.

Jonah 2:1
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Jonah died. He went from the "fish’s belly" to the "belly of hell." If this is the literal burning hell (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then Jonah’s prayers are similar to those of the "rich man" in hell in Luke, which we will look at shortly. The difference being that Jonah’s prayers are heard and answered. Again, he is an exception to the rule.

Jonah 2:3
For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

This obviously can be interpreted literally, as Jonah was in the ocean, but there is also another application.

Psalm 69:15
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.
The "pit" is under the water as well as under the land beneath our feet. But the earth is covered with more than three-quarters water so the reference is understandable.

Jonah 2:4
Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
Obviously God can see anyone, anywhere, so this casting "out of thy sight" must mean something else. It is a way of saying that the person is cut off from God. It is very much like "My God, my God, why has though forsaken me?" It is said about these idolaters in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 7:15
And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
I believe that this next verse is talking about both Jonah’s soul and body because of the more obvious parallel construction of the verse after it.

Jonah 2:6
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (Acts 2:27,31??!!)
The "bottoms of the mountains" would be where the mountain sits on the ocean’s floor. The whale could have taken his body there, but the next part is something else. Here Jonah says that the "earth with her bars was about me for ever." This is a reference to his soul locked in hell, not his being in a whale. This verse also is similar to those already cited in Acts, and here are other verses that are very similar. Remember "pit" refers to either compartment in the "underworld."

Isaiah 38:17
Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
The "grave" would represent physical death while "death" in that verse would be a reference to the soul. The souls of the dead in the Old Testament resided behind gates and bars whether they were in paradise (Abraham’s bosom) or hell. The Lord has never had any trouble disposing of gates and bars, and his keys utterly destroys their effectiveness.

Isaiah 45:1
Thus saith the LORD...
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Psalm 107:16
For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
Jonah was "busted out" of hell’s prison, but the Lord Jesus Christ had the keys to the gates and just walked out on his own.
Let’s look at another common passage with which we are familiar. We will read all the verses and comment when it is appropriate.

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lazarus died. The Bible doesn’t say what happened to his body, but as he had no one to care for him while alive so I doubt anyone cared for him in death. Possibly those dogs who licked his sores even ate him, as Jezebel was eaten. It was his soul that was carried by angel’s into Abraham’s bosom. But while the body of the dead rich man was pampered and buried, in death his soul was in agony.

Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
This one verse is very telling about the nature of a soul. The lost rich man in a burning hell has eyes with which he can see. He can speak and remember. And he can be in torment. When Samuel appeared to Saul he had all his cognizant abilities and could verbally communicate.
Now this rich man can "see" Abraham and Lazarus. The brethren who want paradise to be in heaven say that this sight is supernatural, in that the rich man can see Abraham and Lazarus across the light years of space, and that they can speak to each other with supernatural voices in order to communicate. The Bible, however, defines its own terms. The words "afar off" are used in two ways. Infrequently the phrase is used metaphorically as in "justice standeth afar off." But in the far majority of the cases it is used to refer to distances on the earth. In fact, there is a verse in Job that is strikingly similar to the verse above.

Job 2:12
And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.
By letting the Bible define itself we must conclude that hell and Abraham’s bosom are in earthly proximity. Close enough to be seen with human eyes, and to communicate with human voices.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
This is one of the verses used to prove that Abraham and Lazarus are is heaven. The "great gulf" being the distance between heaven and hell. But as shown previously "afar off" refers to earthly distances, and sight and a verbal conversation between two men that spans that great distance makes much less sense than just believing the total of the rest of the evidence that indicates that hell and Abraham's bosom (paradise) were in close proximity.

Well, another long post, and as I have learned, most folks don't read long posts, and at best do so superficially.

Unless otherwise asked, I'm gonna sign off on this thread. But suffice it to say, there are many verses that teach a literal hell, it had 2 compartments before the cross, it had 2 classes of people in it and at the death of Jesus he preached there, led one part of it out to glory and left the other there for future judgment. Ephesians 4 attests to this fact, Jude confirms it, 1 Peter says it was so, Jesus said he would go there and yet incredible as it may seem, people who claim to be bible believers reject the plain sense of the scriptures and apply themselves to make the scriptures of no effect.
Instead of believe the plain sense of scripture, they opt for a spiritual lesson that is subject to their own caprices and fail to bring their conclusions under the light of verses that plainly contradict their stance. One glaring example is Covenater. A man who rejects the 1000 year reign of Christ, rejects the triune nature of man, believes that God has predestined men by whim to an eternity in hell, a man who by all means should have been run off this board long ago, yet is permitted to continue to speak as if he is a serious theologian. He is a hack Calvinist and should be exposed as such.
This man states in all seriousness that the captivity led by Jesus captive was satan. Yet the same passage says in 5th grade English that Jesus ascended on high with the captivity!! According to Covenanters conclusion Jesus led satan to Heaven. I wouldn't let such a man teach in my nursery let alone on this board.

God bless,
Calvary.

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Calvary, I read all of your long post. I will say, many of the long post, I fail to read.

Agree with much you say as you go from the old to the New.

I just don't get it when so many seemed so set that Jesus did not descend when the bible clearly tells us He did. Its almost as if they believe that had He descended into the earth that would keep Him from being the perfect Savior.

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I have a problem with the belief that paradise was 'in the heart of the earth.'

Nowhere in the Word of God can we find this phrase. We do, however, find that paradise is in the third heaven.

So where did the belief that paradise was in the heart of the Earth come from? Certainly not the Bible.


Read 1 Samuel 28 starting with verse 6 where Saul inquires of the Lord but doesn't get an answer and then goes to a woman in Endor with a familiar spirit to bring "up" Samuel. Look at the dialogue between Saul, the woman and Samuel. Take note to who is ascending out of the earth.

6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Samuel says "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" Where was Samuel prior to being brought up? He was in the heart of the earth and even told Saul that he and his sons would be with him the next day. I believe that Samuel was in paradise in the center of the earth. Jesus even told the thief "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" .... heart of the earth. As Jesus had prophesied prior to His death.

Matthew 12:40 for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Edited by Kleptes
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The sons of God in Job 38 that sang praises at the creation of the Earth were clearly some kind of angelic beings. Why is it so hard then to reason that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were not the same thing?

I read a book by Carl Lackey on angels and he sarcastically asked (you all know I would never be sarcastic :icon_smile: ), "Are we to concluded from Genesis 6 that when Christians marry lost girls they have giants for babies?"


Carl Lackey needs to reread Genesis 6. specifically verse 4.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It says giants first and then say also after that mighty men. So those sons of God didn't bare giants when they married the daughters of men,but rather children, who became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. All of Genesis 6 is talking of the wickedness of man and man alone.
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You are right; the giants cannot be the children. Too many read right over the fact that the giants and the mighty men were contemporaries; The mighty men didn't exist later in time and the term "after that" cannot mean later in time because the whole story takes place "in those days". The English word "after" is used other ways than just for "later in time"...For example,.David was "a man after God's own heart" and the animals produced "after his kind". "Giants", in the Word of God are always something feared and considered a formidible force; and "in accordance with" that, the sons of God AKA beleivers "copied" or "conformed" to that warrior type lifestyle when they became mighty men. Their world was "filled with violence" the Bible says. The "giants" were simply tall people and they weren't supernatural beings anymore than the giants the Hebrew spies were afraid of in the land of Canaan. Those were a formidable force too.

World English Dictionary
after (ˈɑːftə) dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif prep 1. following in time; in succession to: after dinner ; time after time 2. following; behind: they entered one after another 3. in pursuit or search of: chasing after a thief ; he's only after money 4. concerning: to inquire after his health 5. considering: after what you have done, you shouldn't complain 6. next in excellence or importance to: he ranked Jonson after Shakespeare 7. in imitation of; in the manner of: a statue after classical models 8.
in accordance with or in conformity to: a man after her own heart
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Unless otherwise asked, I'm gonna sign off on this thread. But suffice it to say, there are many verses that teach a literal hell, it had 2 compartments before the cross, it had 2 classes of people in it and at the death of Jesus he preached there, led one part of it out to glory and left the other there for future judgment. Ephesians 4 attests to this fact, Jude confirms it, 1 Peter says it was so, Jesus said he would go there and yet incredible as it may seem, people who claim to be bible believers reject the plain sense of the scriptures and apply themselves to make the scriptures of no effect.
Instead of believe the plain sense of scripture, they opt for a spiritual lesson that is subject to their own caprices and fail to bring their conclusions under the light of verses that plainly contradict their stance. One glaring example is Covenater. A man who rejects the 1000 year reign of Christ, rejects the triune nature of man, believes that God has predestined men by whim to an eternity in hell, a man who by all means should have been run off this board long ago, yet is permitted to continue to speak as if he is a serious theologian. He is a hack Calvinist and should be exposed as such.
This man states in all seriousness that the captivity led by Jesus captive was satan. Yet the same passage says in 5th grade English that Jesus ascended on high with the captivity!! According to Covenanters conclusion Jesus led satan to Heaven. I wouldn't let such a man teach in my nursery let alone on this board.


Thanks for the accolade :wink Calvary. Now, is your post sound exegesis, or is it largely eisegesis - the practice of the sects to state a teaching & "prove it" by quoting lots of unrelated Scripture?

e.g. you quote from Job to prove your teaching:

Job 3:11
Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
Job was speaking of the death of his body at birth and of his "giving up the ghost" or having his spirit return to God. Remember the Holy Ghost is also called the Holy Spirit.

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
Although the bodies of the saints are also said to sleep, in the context of the next verses it is obvious that Job is speaking of more than just his body. These next verses show that Job must be speaking of his soul and that would parallel what Samuel said in the first passage about his being disquieted.

These next three verses indicate with whom Job would have expected to be if he had indeed died at birth. The verses show that he could not have been speaking of his body. That would have been an extraordinary burying place that encompassed "kings and counsellors of the earth" and "princes" who were rich and babies who had died early. This cannot be a reference to the body, but to his soul.


On the contrary, Job makes his initial understanding very clear. Scripture is progressive in its revelation, & in Job the argument leads to increasing clarification of, among other things, the nature of death.

Job's initial understanding of death is categorically declared in Job 7:
8The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

His understanding of the state of the dead is as if they had not been born:
1018Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
That is why stillborn babies & kings lie together - in the grave, in the earth. Not physically together, but all are dead & buried. They are not conscious of anything. Much better than being gravely ill. Death is seen as the end of suffering.

Job continues to meditate & postulate & wonder if the dead have a future:
1412So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

His understanding increases, & we read that glorious statement in 19:
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Even so, his hope is thus in the Redeemer & the resurrection, not in a conscious afterlife.

Note that Job sees no difference between spirit & soul - he uses them as equivalent:
7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Elihu, while still accusing Job, makes some wonderful Gospel statements:
33:14For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
20So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
22Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Clearly the pit is more than a physical grave, because the (soul of) repentant sinner is delivered from it. We are delivered from the pit of hell. We will only be delivered from the physical grave at the resurrection. In Job 33, pit is not sheol.

We need also to note that sheol has several translations: grave 31, hell 31, pit 3 and that when the NT writers quote the OT, they use hades for sheol. In Acts 2, although hades is translated hell, Peter is quoting Psalm 16, & sheol is not always a place of torment.

A lot of further study would be needed, but Calvary has not proved the point he is making. Whether I have, I leave to others to consider.

I welcome these opportunities to search the Scriptures together - there is so much to learn.
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Psalm 40:1 ¶ «To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.» I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Is this connected?

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Psalm 40:1 ¶ «To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.» I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Is this connected?

Note 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Were David's enemies specifically aiming at his soul, rather than his body? Possibly - to destroy his faith & discredit him as the godly leader of the people. But I think we need to be practical, & to spiritualise such thoughts & apply them to our own situation whatever it may be. Certainly there are many faith-destroying influences around us that would enhance the pleasures of the flesh & the mind. We are not in physical danger as David constantly was. Many of our brethren are in such danger & families suffer when a pastor is imprisoned.

We must therefore believe David's prayers & make them our own. That in no way casts doubt on the word of God in its context.
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