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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Suicide and salvation?


2Tim215
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

First off, I find it ridiculous that I am unable to read or post on nearly all the available forums. Are we IB's so conservative that we have to protect ourselves from the view points of outsiders.

Now to the main question I have that I must post here as I was not allowed to post in the relative forum.

Can a saved believer commit suicide and lose there salvation? Now before I get a sermon on eternal security understand that I have been saved for over 25yrs and a 1611 AVKJB baptist for most of them. I just want biblical references to prove either or as I can find nothing besides the catholic point of view anywhere. I plan to be seeing my maker soon as we have unresolved issues that need sorting and I'm sick of the christian pretense that He actually listens and -wait for it - answers. Time for a face to face and yes I'll say it when most of you want to, but don't have the "" to say it - i'm one p'd off child of God and apologize if this offends, but life ain't pretty.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If you know Scripture well enough to know about eternal security then you should realize eternal means eternal. If a person biblically born again in Christ commits suicide that doesn't somehow invalidate eternal security any more than if that person died while committing any other sin.

The question any person who claims to be born again in Christ and considering suicide should ask is whether or not they are truly born again in Christ. Scripture is clear there are signs/fruits we can look for in our lives so we may know if we are truly born again in Christ. All professing Christians are warned to examine their faith to see if they are truly in the faith or not. The torment of hell awaits those professing, yet acutally lost, "Christians" who die, whether of suicide or other means.

If one is ticked off at God and actually thinking that suicide would be a good idea and a way to have a face-to-face talk with God, that would suggest they are not thinking clear. God does not grant special audience in heaven to those who murder themselves.

Again, an examination of ones true position in Christ would be in order. We should be mindful that many will stand before the Lord proclaiming they were His but Christ will point out they were not and they will be cast into hell.

Taking the cowards way out, running away from what one is facing and murdering themselves in direct violation of the Word, is never a good or right way to respond to anything. God will not and does not allow anything to come into a persons life which they are not able to bear. God ALWAYS provides a way through or out of all things in life and that way is through Christ, not sin. If we ever think God has abandoned us, we are wrong. If we ever think we are facing something we can't make it through, we are wrong. Christ is waiting for us to turn fully to Him to bring us through.

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  • Advanced Member

Nothing in Scripture says that suicide is an unforgivable sin. The only unforgivable sin is blasphame againt the Holy Spirit, which I read to mean rejection of the call of the Holy Spirit to salvation.

The only rationale to say that suicide is unforgivable is to say that because one died before one asked to be forgiven of that sin, then one cannot be forgiven. However, if that is true, then what if I have a lustful thought as I drive down the road and am then killed in a car accident while that lustful thought is in my mind? Or what if I lose my temper, and in the midst of a rampage have a heart attack and die? I did not have a chance to ask for God to forgive me then.

If one takes that approach, then forgiveness depends upon ourselves, and not upon the sacrifice Christ made for us. If we look upon Jesus and rely upon him for our salvation, then it does not matter that I die at a time when I have fallen into sin, or whether or not I have asked God to forgive me of a particular sin at the time of my death.

If I have called upon the name of Christ and have accepted his call to discipleship, then his grace is sufficient to cover ALL of my sin.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Very good answers men, and very true. One must be really hurting to be contemplating suicide, and I feel for him, but suicide answers nothing--it adds to the problem. Satan wins another victory, and your testimony, and the testimony of Christ is in jeopardy in suicide, not to mention the anguish you put your loved ones' through so that they to may wish themselves dead too. Try, perhaps as a last resort, getting alone with God in prayer and telling Hi you are displeased with Him; this scares me to say it, but it is better than suicide. Together you and He can work it out.

2 Tim, I too will soon meet the Lord. I have, if anyone has, reason to be bitter because I have dementia, which has no cure and always ends in death. The Lord could take it away, but whether he does or not, i remain in His care--He knows what he is doing. I am no hero, nor do I pretend to be, but I trust Him fully, and know that He is in control. I have some really hard times, as does my wife who takes care of me, but we must keep going, and will, by the grace of God. Hang in there' buddy, don't give up, the lord will lead you through all trials.

Edited by irishman
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Suicide is murder of oneself. So...if a Christian murders someone, do they lose their salvation? Same as suicide.

The only question would be, could a true Christian commit murder or suicide? That question can only be answered by God.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I had some hard things happen in my life years ago that I couldn't handle and ended up seeing a psychiatrist at the advice of my pastor. The man recommended that all my guns be removed from the house, Even a Christian can get so depressed that there seems to be no hope. I've been there. But even since then, I have weathered even worse problems but God has blessed me and sustained me. I'm glad I stayed. Everyone has problems. Some of them so severe, that I marvel at the way people handle them.

Remember Job? Job lost his property, his health but most of all he lost his beloved children and was so full of agony, anguish and sorrow that he wished he had never even been born. To add insult to injury, he was unjustly judged and criticized by his "friends". But instead of getting mad at God, Job trusted God and who later blessed him. I believe there are some modern day "Jobs" living even now. I wish I could say that I never got mad at God, but I can't. I can say that God is merciful and forgiving and has our good in mind. He is no respecter of persons and can restore your life like he did Brother Job.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Suicide is murder of oneself. So...if a Christian murders someone, do they lose their salvation? Same as suicide.

The only question would be, could a true Christian commit murder or suicide? That question can only be answered by God.

Actually we can answer the question too. True Christians are still subject to weaknesses of the flesh and temptations from the world and devil. True Christians are capable of committing virtually any sin, whether it be lying, adultery, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc.

Perhaps you were more meaning whether or not a true Christian actually living as such could commit murder or suicide. In such a case the answer would be, yes, they could, but it would be much more unlikely if they were actually striving to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

As this would relate to the OP, if the person is ticked off at God and somehow thinks if they murder themselves they will instantly get an audience with God so they can tell God off and then hear directly what God has to say, that would seem to clearly indicate they are not walking in the Spirit, or even seeking to at this time, but are giving themselves fully over to the flesh and likely the influence of the devil as well. Which brings us back to the point you so well raise about whether one is a true Christian or not! A person having thoughts such as in the OP should be very careful about rash actions. Now would be a very good time to examine your faith and see if indeed you are actually a true Christian or not. If not, murdering yourself will make things infinetly worse. If you are a true Christian now is the time to drop to your knees in repentance and truly open your heart and mind to Christ who will heal the hurts, show you the way and help you out of this dark valley.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist


Actually we can answer the question too. True Christians are still subject to weaknesses of the flesh and temptations from the world and devil. True Christians are capable of committing virtually any sin, whether it be lying, adultery, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc.

Perhaps you were more meaning whether or not a true Christian actually living as such could commit murder or suicide. In such a case the answer would be, yes, they could, but it would be much more unlikely if they were actually striving to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

As this would relate to the OP, if the person is ticked off at God and somehow thinks if they murder themselves they will instantly get an audience with God so they can tell God off and then hear directly what God has to say, that would seem to clearly indicate they are not walking in the Spirit, or even seeking to at this time, but are giving themselves fully over to the flesh and likely the influence of the devil as well. Which brings us back to the point you so well raise about whether one is a true Christian or not! A person having thoughts such as in the OP should be very careful about rash actions. Now would be a very good time to examine your faith and see if indeed you are actually a true Christian or not. If not, murdering yourself will make things infinetly worse. If you are a true Christian now is the time to drop to your knees in repentance and truly open your heart and mind to Christ who will heal the hurts, show you the way and help you out of this dark valley.


True, we can know, we have the answers in the Bible.

We do know that there is only one sin that is unforgivable, that is not believing on Jesus Christ as Savior, John 3:36.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The question any person who claims to be born again in Christ and considering suicide should ask is whether or not they are truly born again in Christ. Scripture is clear there are signs/fruits we can look for in our lives so we may know if we are truly born again in Christ.

Taking the cowards way out, running away from what one is facing and murdering themselves in direct violation of the Word,

  1. Frankly, I am so sick of the Independent Baptist answer to everything they don't quite get - " Was he/she really saved?" The Word is VERY clear on salvation -if you at any time believed on Jesus Christ as your personal Savior then you are saved regardless of how you live afterward or if you confessed your sins and repented or were baptized or not or any other of the "IF'S". Many a born again believer is lying drunk in there own vomit somewhere, or considering/committing adultery, etc. You don't have to remember the exact day, time and place you gave your life to the Lord to be saved, nor do you have to be a 1611 KJV Bible believing Baptist to be the only one going to heaven.
  2. Signs and fruits have nothing to do with your state but with your standing - this means that your state is in Christ and He has your salvation in His hands forever - your standing however is entirely up to you and the choices you make and the signs/fruits you bear reflect this not the grace of Christ.
  3. It's easy to call someone a coward from the other side of the fence, maybe you should walk a mile in my shoes. I have faced death many times in my life and I can tell you that any one who decides to take their own life is not a coward, they have more than likely faced more in their lives than you could ever handle, on your own or on your knees!!!


Very good answers men, and very true. One must be really hurting to be contemplating suicide, and I feel for him, but suicide answers nothing--it adds to the problem. Satan wins another victory, and your testimony, and the testimony of Christ is in jeopardy in suicide, not to mention the anguish you put your loved ones' through so that they to may wish themselves dead too. Try, perhaps as a last resort, getting alone with God in prayer and telling Hi you are displeased with Him; this scares me to say it, but it is better than suicide. Together you and He can work it out.

2 Tim, I too will soon meet the Lord. I have, if anyone has, reason to be bitter because I have dementia, which has no cure and always ends in death. The Lord could take it away, but whether he does or not, i remain in His care--He knows what he is doing. I am no hero, nor do I pretend to be, but I trust Him fully, and know that He is in control. I have some really hard times, as does my wife who takes care of me, but we must keep going, and will, by the grace of God. Hang in there' buddy, don't give up, the lord will lead you through all trials.


Thanks, tried that too many times, but thanks for the kind words and keep on keeping on.

Suicide is not my way of dealing with things, but as an option has it's merits. Every person has the right to choose life or death. We do this at salvation when we choose life in Christ over death in sin. I am not the first to be angry with God and neither will I be the last if He keeps on tarrying. I wanted to see the reaction this thread would incur and besides the usual IB bigotry I have come to hate I have seen a love not often seen in IB forums or people and to see if just maybe there was a hidden verse I hadn't found yet :D . So thanks to those who care and to those who don't.
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Any person has the right to choose life or death? Not quite, 2Tim. God tells us that we each have an appointment with death. That very clearly implies a time set by God for each of us. The argument could be made that a suicide is the time set or it wouldn't happen, but the truth would more be that said person is leaning on their own understanding rather than acknowledging God. That said, I completely agree with your statement that salvation is forever, regardless. Your eternal destiny is assured. My hope, though, is that you don't take your own way out.

I'm sorry you're angry - I'm sure there must be a great level of hurt that has turned to that anger. And I'm sorry for that, too. But, just a word of caution: be careful of assuming that folks haven't faced things that would equal what you have faced. None of us has walked in each other's shoes, but we each have problems, trials, discouragements, and things that knock us for a loop.

No, indeed, you are not the first to be angry with God! Nor will you be the last. Again, I am sorry for whatever has taken place in your life to lead you to that anger. I know this probably won't mean a lot in your anger, but I just wanted to share this verse with you: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love..." I know you may not want to hear or accept this, since you are angry, but God does love you. I know you knew that at one time, else you would never have turned to Christ for salvation. I pray that you can once again know in your heart and life that God does love you.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Indeed, Scripture tells us that our lives are not our own, we were bought with a price. Also, killing oneself is murder and murder is clearly unacceptable as it's a sin, as well as illegal.

Read the Scriptures in context and as a whole and it's clear that if one is truly born again in Christ there will be a change in their life and there will be fruit bearing evidence of salvation in their lives. The idea that one can be saved and live like the devil is unbiblical and extremely dangerous to the souls of millions.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

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Read the Scriptures in context and as a whole and it's clear that if one is truly born again in Christ there will be a change in their life and there will be fruit bearing evidence of salvation in their lives. The idea that one can be saved and live like the devil is unbiblical and extremely dangerous to the souls of millions.


Seeing as you are quick to state scripture, lets see some references for salvation being responsible for fruit and the fact that it is not biblical for saved believes to live lives "like the devil".
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

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Seeing as you are quick to state scripture, lets see some references for salvation being responsible for fruit and the fact that it is not biblical for saved believes to live lives "like the devil".

Seeing as you are so quick to attack and reject what is put forth it would do you much more good to read the Word for yourself. Read the New Testament, or read one Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.

What I have mentioned is basic Christianity and something we all need to feed upon ourselves.

Christians are called to forsake all for Christ. We are called to deny ourselves and submit to Christ. Our lives are no longer our own, if we are in Christ and if Christ is in us this will be clearly evident. Read the Word.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Seeing as you are so quick to attack and reject what is put forth it would do you much more good to read the Word for yourself. Read the New Testament, or read one Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.


John81, I am not quick to attack nor reject what is put forth as long as it is relevant, backed up by scripture and not one's opinion and finally, based on the love of Christ. You will note that in my first post I asked for scripture, not someones opinion. Yes, I may be angry with God, but I am not suicidal and my goal was to stir up a hornets nest and see what came out. You will also note that many who replied were humble, gentle and really concerned in their replies, not bigoted, arrogant and opinionated. My reason for the post was to see if this site had IB's who are full of themselves in their assurance that they are the only ones that know God, the Word, are saved and every one else is unsaved and doctrinally dammed. Having studied theology through and Independent Baptist college I "humbly" think that I have read the word a little on the odd occasion and am 100% sure that the scriptures you refuse to take the time to quote do not refer to fruit being the end result of salvation, but rather obedience. The first three Gospels in context refer to fruit as in directly linked to the nation of Israel - the Jews, and we know that doctrinally we can not take doctrine intended for the Jews and make it our doctrine, though we can learn from it. In John Jesus is telling them to abide in Him - this is an action on behalf of the believer and does not refer to salvation - again - obedience on the part of the believer. Every where else that Paul mentions fruit he is exhorting the believers to obey and live as Christ lived - action not result. Eph 5: 9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) These are actions on behalf of the believer. There are two types of fruit - the fruit a believer manifests through obedience and the fruit that is Christs (the Church) -James 5:7.

So you John81, being perfect, have never sinned, do not continue to sin and thus are not of the devil (1John 3:8), whereas according to your doctrine those of us who sin and do not bear fruit are not saved and are of the devil and 1John 1:8 does not apply to you and I am sure that you have not Heb 12: 4'ed!!

I think that I will hold fast to Heb 10:10 (By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.) and to vrs 17 (And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.) and that Heb 10 :26-31 does not apply to the believer as in context Paul was speaking to the Jews throughout the chapter concerning the Law and those choosing to remain under it.


Christians are called to forsake all for Christ. We are called to deny ourselves and submit to Christ. Our lives are no longer our own, if we are in Christ and if Christ is in us this will be clearly evident. Read the Word.


Like I said, everything you stated there is an action on behalf of the believer, the fruit being the direct result directly proportional to the obedience of the believer, otherwise according to your belief all believers would all be producing exactly equal and living fruit filled lives, and the last time I was in church that was sadly not the case, unless of course your church does and if so then please forgive me and let me know where you are so that I can also be perfect. And as for reading the Word - I have.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If this is the direction you wish to go then for the sake of peace I'll leave you to your assumptions. I will continue in prayer.


No hard feelings John81 - we are all entitled to our "assumptions". And I hope the prayer is not just lip service - need all the fervent prayer of the righteous that I can get.
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No hard feelings John81 - we are all entitled to our "assumptions". And I hope the prayer is not just lip service - need all the fervent prayer of the righteous that I can get.

Absolutely no hard feelings here. No lip service prayers. We all need prayer and they need to be real prayers to the Father.
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It's easy to call someone a coward from the other side of the fence, maybe you should walk a mile in my shoes. I have faced death many times in my life and I can tell you that any one who decides to take their own life is not a coward, they have more than likely faced more in their lives than you could ever handle, on your own or on your knees!!!


The Lord never gives us more than we can handle. Suicide, besides being cowardly and murder is also the height of selfishness. A friend of a friend recently committed suicide leaving behind young children without a father. About a decade ago another friend's relative killed himself too. This particular fellow had engorged in all the pleasures of the world but never knew the Lord.

If you're not hearing from the Lord consider Psalm 66:18. Maybe you're harboring some sin, and in doing so hindering your own prayers. We don't know you and neither do any of us wish you ill will or death. We want to help and we are praying for you.

About a year ago one young man in our church was in a terrible auto accident that nearly took his life. After untold number of surgeries and months of hospitalization this fellow was clearly despondant. We all continued in prayer for this fellow for months but he kept getting re-infected and his attitude towards life and the Lord was sour. At the same moment, several of us men came to the same conclusion that he was harboring some sin (prompting of the Holy Spirit) and one of them brought it up to them. About a month later he began to walk again and has been faithfully attending church despite the great pain and discomfort. He repented and the Lord began to hear and answer his prayers again. But don't think he's off the hook! Remember, he like you will be chastened by our Father in heaven when we do wrong. I'm chastened all the time!
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Severe depression is a horrible thing to go through.
Sometimes people get slammed down so hard, it feels like there is no hope. I believe Brother Job was pretty depressed. Job's "friends" just assumed that he was being punished for his sin but Job had done nothing to deserve any of it. Sometimes the hard knocks are chastening, but not always. When you're severely depressed, the love of other people is the only thing that will help, Because God doesn't speak to everyone out of a whirlwind.

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