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         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Calvinism on the March


DennisD
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But Paul taught predestination, but you don't believe it, and because you don't believe it, you try to avoid it. But it is there. It is there all through the Old Testament as well as the new.

God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.

It is strange that most on here would be dispensationalists, but the "Father of Dispensationalism", J N Darby was an extreme Calvinist.

Edited by Invicta
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But Paul taught predestination, but you don't believe it, and because you don't believe it, you try to avoid it. But it is there. It is there all through the Old Testament as well as the new.

God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.

It is strange that most on here would be dispensationalists, but the "Father of Dispensationalism", J N Darby was an extreme Calvinist.



I believe what the Bible teaches on predestination.


God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.


God did no such thing. God foreknew it. He knows every hair on your head, and where every atomic particle in the universe is at any given time just like He knows about every single future wicked act which will ever be committed. But He didn't "foreordain" any wicked act. He isn't the author of sin.

wicked act to happen.
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1 Cor 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV

God bless,
Larry

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4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

How limited us God's kindness? I'm just foolish enough to believe that whatever God does far EXCEEDS any we can imagine. The pastor of the church I just left made the statement that "The most important thing to God is his glory". Really? "Charity vaunteth not itself" but God does?

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

God wants us to "love our brother as our self". So I ask you, is God Himself..selfish? Is His Glory his main goal? Please look at the first clause in this verse and zero in on that word "unseemly"...


Word Origin & Historyunseemly
early 14c., "unfitting, indecent," from un-(1) "not" + seemly. Cf. O.N. usoemiligr.

If I tell you that I'm kind, and unselfish, but then I turn right around and do something that is selfish and unkind, then that in itself is totally "unfitting" or "unseemly" . It woulds not only be questionable but it would go against' my kind unselfish reputation. In God's case it would be totally out of character. God is going to get glory my friend because He has PROVED Himself worthy. God is a giver, not a taker and He has given His only begotten son to die a horrible death at Calvary and this unfathomable kindness was given for every man who ever lived.. His precious blood was sufficient for everyone. The Lord Jesus Christ who created us all, didn't make some of us for the sole purpose of suffering in agony for his glory and pleasure; That's not the way He is. He wants to bestow His glorious blessing of love, joy and eternal life on us all. If we choose to reject what God had done for us, it is OUR fault. He knows who will reject Him, yes, but that is because He is God.
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I believe in predestination too. It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not. You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not. God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture. It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple. The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light. If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination. Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?

Edited by Rick Schworer
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From Matthew Henry's commentary:

1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Co 13:8-13
Charity Commended. ( A.D. 57.)
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Here the apostle goes on to commend charity, and show how much it is preferable to the gifts on which the Corinthians were so apt to pride themselves, to the utter neglect, and almost extinction, of charity. This he makes out,
I. From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see ch. 14:6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength.
II. He hints that these gifts are adapted only to a state of imperfection: We know in part, and we prophesy in part, v. 9. Our best knowledge and our greatest abilities are at present like our condition, narrow and temporary. Even the knowledge they had by inspiration was but in part. How little a portion of God, and the unseen world, was heard even by apostles and inspired men! How much short do others come of them! But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity, because they were to vanish with the imperfections of the church, nay, and long before, whereas charity was to last for ever.
III. He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (v. 10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here. The difference between these two states is here pointed at in two particulars: 1. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood: When I was a child, I spoke as a child (that is, as some think, spoke with tongues), I understood as a child;
ephronoun
—sapiebam (that is, "I prophesied, I was taught the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, in such an extraordinary way as manifested I was not out of my childish state"), I thought, or reasoned,
elogizomen,
as a child; but, when I became a man, I put away childish things. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused and indistinct notions of things, have children, in comparison of grown men! And how naturally do men, when reason is ripened and matured, despise and relinquish their infant thoughts, put them away, reject them, esteem as nothing! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts and acquisitions in this world, when we come to heaven. We shall despise our childish folly, in priding ourselves in such things when we are grown up to men in Christ. 2. Things are all dark and confused now, in comparison of what they will be hereafter: Now we see through a glass darkly (
en ainigmati,
in a riddle), then face to face; now we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known. Now we can only discern things at a great distance, as through a telescope, and that involved in clouds and obscurity; but hereafter the things to be known will be near and obvious, open to our eyes; and our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1 John 3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Ps 36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day.
IV. To sum up the excellences of charity, he prefers it not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope (v. 13): And now abide faith, hope, and charity; but the greatest of these is charity. True grace is much more excellent than any spiritual gifts whatever. And faith, hope, and love, are the three principal graces, of which charity is the chief, being the end to which the other two are but means. This is the divine nature, the soul's felicity, or its complacential rest in God, and holy delight in all his saints. And it is everlasting work, when faith and hope shall be no more. Faith fixes on the divine revelation, and assents to that: hope fastens on future felicity, and waits for that: and in heaven faith well be swallowed up in vision, and hope in fruition. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But love fastens on the divine perfections themselves, and the divine image on the creatures, and our mutual relation both to God and them. These will all shine forth in the most glorious splendours in another world, and there will love be made perfect; there we shall perfectly love God, because he will appear amiable for ever, and our hearts will kindle at the sight, and glow with perpetual devotion. And there shall we perfectly love one another, when all the saints meet there, when none but saints are there, and saints made perfect. O blessed state! How much surpassing the best below! O amiable and excellent grace of charity! How much does it exceed the most valuable gift, when it outshines every grace, and is the everlasting consummation of them! When faith and hope are at an end, true charity will burn for ever with the brightest flame. Note, Those border most upon the heavenly state and perfection whose hearts are fullest of this divine principle, and burn with the most fervent charity. It is the surest offspring of God, and bears his fairest impression. For God is love, 1 John 4:8,16. And where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height—there, and there only, will it be perfected.

(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)

There are so many theological arguments that will never be settled until the Lord takes us home. Why must the Church bite and snipe at each other while the people of the world are slipping into the abyss. Let us just do the job we were assigned when Jesus ascended: Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

After all what have we to gain in these endless discussions that is more important than giving out the "good news" of the gospel of Christ. Let us be charitable to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ and get about our Lord's business.

God bless,
Larry

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I believe in predestination too.  It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not.  You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not.  God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture.  It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.  

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple.  The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light.  If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination.  Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?



I agree predestination is all in Christ alone.

(Eph 1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It would have to be in Christ we could never be predestined in ourselves if so we could never be holy and without blame before him in love. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world.Though I disagree we do anything (by ourselves) Edit: because even our believing is worked by God. Though we must believe.) to become Christ's. It is all bought by Christ alone (Which though we differ what what all is in this case too.. I assume we would agree that Salvation is all of the Lord.)

(Rom 9:10) And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
(Rom 9:11) (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
(Rom 9:12)  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Rom 9:16) So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(Heb 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Now I just thought of this..
We flee for refuge to Christ (Man's Responsibility), But it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.(Sovereign Grace) Because he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and calls us by his Grace through the spirit.   (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So in the end it truly is;
(Rom 8:31) What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?


I'll take the risk of being called a Spurgeonist.... As I find this similar to your situation.  (Sovereign Grace and man's responsibility (again..) Thanks to Spurgeon Gems :))

(Rom 10:20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
(Rom 10:21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

CH Spurgeon:

“Well,” says someone, “I should have thought that although the Savior might not require an earnest seeking and
sighing and groaning and a continuous searching after Him, yet certainly He would have desired and demanded that eve-
ry man, before he has Grace, should ask for it.” That, indeed, Beloved, seems natural, and God will give Grace to them
who ask for it. But mark, the text says that He was manifested “to them who asked not for Him.” That is to say, before
we ask, God gives us Grace! The only reason why any man ever begins to pray is because God has put previous Grace in
his heart which leads him to pray. I remember when I was converted to God, I was an Arminian through and through. I
thought I had begun the good work myself and I used to sit down and think, “Well, I sought the Lord four years before I
found Him,” and I think I began to compliment myself upon the fact that I had perseveringly entreated of Him in the
midst of much discouragement! But one day the thought struck me, “How was it you came to seek God?” and in an in-
stant the answer came from my soul, “Why, because He led me to do it! He must first have shown me my need of Him, or
else I should never have sought Him! He must have shown me His preciousness, or I never would have thought Him worth
seeking.” And at once I saw the Doctrines of Grace as clear as possible. GOD must begin! Nature can never rise above
itself. You put water into a reservoir and it will rise as high as that, but no higher if let alone. Now, it is not in human
nature to seek the Lord. Human nature is depraved and, therefore, there must be the extraordinary pressure of the Holy
Spirit put upon the heart to lead us to first ask for mercy. But mark, we do not know anything about that while the Spir-
it is operating! We find that out afterwards. We ask as much as if we were asking all of ourselves. Our business is to seek
the Lord as if there were no Holy Spirit at all—and although we do not know it, there must always be a previous motion
of the Spirit in our heart before there will be a motion of our heart towards Him— "


(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


I agree with Pilgrim though let us labour the more to share the Gospel than debate (for lack of thinking of a better word.) Oh, if we think of our Savior's love how often do we (At the very least I) fall short. :( Edited by Nathaniel
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I'm sorry but there IS one thing you must do to be saved.
It's invisible, you cannot hold it or even touch it, it moves nothing, makes nothing and has never taken one drop of sweat to perform yet it must be done or you will go to HELL. This thing you must do is up to you alone and God will not do it for you. But He has graciously provided a way for it to be effective and He has even given every man the ability to do perform it.. Know what it is? Only Believe

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Why is God doing things for His own glory and honour considered by some to be selfish and wrong? If God is worthy of such and such brings Him pleasure, why would such be wrong? What about the verses throughout Scripture which says God does this or that for His glory? What about those He had around His throne praising Him continually?

I've never heard Believers say this is a problem before (I have heard some unbelievers cry about it), and I must have missed it because I'm not sure how that even came up in this thread.

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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.
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I believe in predestination too. It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not. You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not. God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture. It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple. The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light. If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination. Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?


You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.
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Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.


Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.
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You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.


The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place. Edited by Rick Schworer
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The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place.


That is an interesting way of disbeliving the scriptures. The particular baptist teaching is not just on the word "predestination" but on the whole teaching of the bible, both Old and New Testaments.
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Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.

I don't know that I've heard of what you seem to be trying to say.

In any event, the fact Jesus wasn't seeking glory while here in human form, while He was doing all for the glory of God, hardly negates the fact that Scripture is filled with examples of God doing or bringing about things for His glory. I really don't see what the problem with that is.
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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Chapter 8


14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Claiming that Jesus wanted zero glory is absurd. Context.
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Question: Is anyone being helped by this?

Anyone helping to sharpen the brothers iron? so to speek?

Have any of you gone back to the Bible and done some indepth studies to reafferm what you say and belive? (I think all of you have from what I'm reading, but the questin has to be asked)

Is this keeping you from sharing your faith with others? Leading others to the Lord for salvation?

If all this is doing is gendering striff amoung the bretheren, stop now and go bowling or something. If on the other hand, you find this intellectually stimulating like I do, then cary on in brotherly love and provoke none to wrath.


Dr. Roberson

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He also died for non Calvinists.

He died for you as well as me.

I think a more productive thread would be what is the Gospel

Some say that preaching the gospel os expounding the whole scriptures from Gen. to Rev. Our preacher yesterday preached on 1 Cor. 15. which plainly says that the gospel is the death and resurrection of Christ. I am sorry to say that I learnt more in our scripture lessons at school than I would learn in any of our sermons recently.

I believe the gospel starts with God. God is holy and cannot abide sin. He is a God who we must approach with awe and reverence. The sinfullness of man. Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; the death and resurrection of Christ. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. At school we told that you earnt death, but you could not earn eternal life, it was a gift of God.

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