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Just a quick comment on the original post. I haven't read any of the other posts, so I might be repeating something someone else has said. The info about BJU in particular caught my eye, because that's my alma mater. I thought I should mention that BJU affixes a slip of paper to the front pages of all of the books they sell in the bookstore, a disclaimer which indicates that the opinions of the authors are not necessarily in agreement with the views of the school. If I remember right, there's more verbage on that paper which talks about how we can learn good things from those with whom we disagree on some issues. Also, just to set the record straight, BJU actually dismissed a faculty member a few years back because he was too Reformed.

From my perspective, Calvinism/Reformed theology is a current trend...the result of the pendulum swinging back from the extreme practices of Arminianism which characterized many churches in previous but fairly recent years. It's human nature to react against the weaknesses of the thoughts and practices of previous generations. And so, back and forth we go...

The reasonable person, IMO, understands that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism--nor any man-made theological construct, for that matter--adequately and fully expresses the deep truths of God's work of salvation...truths that we cannot grasp, but that we must believe. From God's perspective, there's no tension between 'whosoever will' and 'predestination.' It's a paradox to us, because our minds are finite. The Calvinism/Arminianism debate will never be settled this side of heaven. But that doesn't stop people from shouting past each other...


There really is no tension between "whosoever will" and "predestination" because they have nothing to do with one another. If everyone bought into the old "deep truths that we cannot grasp" argument, alot more of us would be deceived by false doctrine.
Way back in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate that fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that old tree did exactly what God said it did. So unless your conscience is one of those seared with a hot iron, you should KNOW what is right and what is wrong. Whoever came up with the concept of a god who supposedly created some people for the sole purpose of killing them for the glory and pleasure of it had a warped idea of God. Anyone with a sense of "knowledge of good and evil" should be well able to grasp that. Edited by heartstrings
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That's encouraging, that the Biblical truth nicknamed "Calvinism" is being more widely accepted. The most faithful churches are the "reformed baptist."

Yes, Paul and Peter warned about false teachers and heresies way back then. I don't care if Augustine, Spurgeon or George Washington taught or believed your "Reformation" "doctrines of grace" or whate

The boring factor is the lack of proper engagement, & the resultant proliferation of "standard" refutations of "Calvinism." "I heard the Gospel, & responded in repentance & faith. It was

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From my perspective, Calvinism/Reformed theology is a current trend...the result of the pendulum swinging back from the extreme practices of Arminianism which characterized many churches in previous but fairly recent years. It's human nature to react against the weaknesses of the thoughts and practices of previous generations. And so, back and forth we go...


Why would there need to be a "Reformed" reaction to any "extreme practices of Arminianism" within the ranks of the IFB movement? I've been in it for some 35 years and never heard anyone teach Arminian doctrine in my church or any other IFB churches I have visited.
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There really is no tension between "whosoever will" and "predestination" because they have nothing to do with one another. If everyone bought into the old "deep truths that we cannot grasp" argument, alot more of us would be deceived by false doctrine.
Way back in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate that fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that old tree did exactly what God said it did. So unless your conscience is one of those seared with a hot iron, you should KNOW what is right and what is wrong. Whoever came up with the concept of a god who supposedly created some people for the sole purpose of killing them for the glory and pleasure of it had a warped idea of God. Anyone with a sense of "knowledge of good and evil" should be well able to grasp that.

Do you know everything that is right and wrong with 100% accuracy and certainty and have you known this from the moment you were saved? (asking in a kind and mostly rhetorical manner)

Just because a saved person doesn't know every aspect of right and wrong, or isn't certain or yet decided about a particular point, doesn't mean their conscience is seared. It could simply be the Lord has yet to teach that person or work in that area with that person.
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Why would there need to be a "Reformed" reaction to any "extreme practices of Arminianism" within the ranks of the IFB movement? I've been in it for some 35 years and never heard anyone teach Arminian doctrine in my church or any other IFB churches I have visited.

Likely as not Annie is referring to the trend which started outside IFB. Historically there does tend to be pendulum shifts with regards to various aspecst, whether it be Calvinisn/non-Calvinism, pre-trib rapture/something else, overemphasis on works/overemphasis on grace, etc.

Regardless of where such starts, they do tend to effect, to one degree or another, even IFB churches.
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“5. Many look at Charles Spurgeon as next in line after the trinity and want to be like him. It would be better in my opinion if they would just smoke his cigars instead of choking on his Calvinism."

I was saved after listening to one of Spurgeons sermons. However I came to hold to very high view of separation.. I tended to separate over the smallest things and wouldn't listen to preachers only that were really close to my views... I thought they must not believe their bibles to believe that! (When I hadn't even read the whole bible yet..) So a bit after I knew he was a "Calvinist". I stopped listening to him and deleted his material.. However I kept seeing "Calvinism" in scripture.. (I learned what it was from a refutation of it.) By no means did I want to believe it. In fact (I was extremely prideful as a young believer and it still tries to overtake me...) I thought Calvinism was a evil doctrine and pretty much thought one a heretic if the believed such.. I also followed Dr. Cloud a lot as a young believer.. and I was surprised some people didn't care for him when I read topics here.. (Because after all he is high on the Fundamental 500?! (Which I found you all on..) However I read through the bible for the first time and I could no longer believe dispensationalism.. (Gal 3:16) (Ro 9:6)
Scripture is (at least to me) plainly against it. I didn't see a Pre-trib rapture anywhere.. (if you remember I had some forums on such here. I even rejected Calvinism there post #146) I was shocked and I had to re-examine doctrines.. (I even ended up doubted cardinal ones to my shame..) I had built so much upon the teachers and what I was taught by them when they failed me what ground had I? (I did similar to what #5 is only with IFB teachers) I read and believed what people told me if they were orthodox in some things I figured they must be in these too! So if they could make scripture seem to support their view then I was sold. However, I still denied Calvinism and refused for awhile to listen to teachers.. As I was going to go scriptural.. I started reading the gospels and Romans and I kept seeing "Calvinism" a lot in John. But I fought against it still as someone here called it a damnable doctrine and it kinda scared me... I kept meditating upon the scriptures in my mind and I couldn't ignore it any longer. So I decided to see what my old friend Spurgeon had to say about "Calvinism" I listened to "Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility" and it answered quite a few of my questions.. I only believe it because of scripture by no means because a teacher taught it.. If I was following my teachers I would still be 100% IFB. (Edit: I'm sorry that could have come across the wrong way. I think you all believe your bibles too.)

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All men cannot be always all men in the universe unless you believe every single person ever will be saved...

(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


(Matt 11:25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
(Matt 11:26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
(Matt 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].


(Matt 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Matt 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


(John 1:10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


(the world "gentiles")

(John 1:11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(His own "jews of the flesh" who then is left?)

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: KJV
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? KJV
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. KJV
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. KJV
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. KJV

2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: KJV
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. KJV
2Cor 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. KJV
2Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. KJV

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; KJV
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: KJV

(we used to be blinded)


Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; KJV
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: KJV
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. KJV
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, KJV
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) KJV
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: KJV
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. KJV
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: KJV

(that faith is the gift of God)

(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(John 6:28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
(John 6:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



(The work that God does is to make us believe otherwise we are doing a work.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. KJV
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. KJV

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. KJV
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. KJV

Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children. KJV

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. KJV
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. KJV

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. KJV

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. KJV
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. KJV
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him]. KJV
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. KJV
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. KJV

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. KJV
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. KJV

(We cannot even truly receive Christ unless saving faith be given to us.)

(Rom 10:20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
(Rom 10:21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


C.H Spurgeon quotes from Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility (thanks www.spurgeongems.org for the sermon) (I would reccomend hearing the sermon if you are interested here http://www.sermonaud...ID=22301111032.)
"The system of Truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the Gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once." "That God predestines and that man is responsible are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory. But they are not! It is the fault of our own weak judgment" "These two Truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity!"
"Now, this morning I am about to consider the two Doctrines. In the 20th verse, we have taught us the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace—“But Isaiah is very bold and says, I was found by those who sought Me not. I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.” In the next verse, we have the Doctrine of man’s guilt in rejecting God.
I. First, then, DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY AS EXEMPLIFIED IN SALVATION. If any man is saved, he is saved by Divine Grace and by Divine Grace, alone. The reason of his salvation is not to be found in him, but in God. We are not saved as the result of anything that we do or that we will—we will and do as the result of God’s good pleasure and the work of His Grace in our hearts! No sinner can prevent God, that is, he cannot go before Him, cannot anticipate Him. God is always first in the matter of salvation! He is before our convictions, before our desires, before our fears, before our hopes. All that is good or ever will be good in us is preceded by the Grace of God and is the effect of a Divine cause with-in. "

"You would imagine that if God gave His Grace to any He would wait until He found them earnestly seeking Him. You would imagine that God in the highest heavens would say, “I have mercies, but I will leave men alone and when they feel their need of these mercies and seek Me diligently with their whole heart, day and night, with tears and vows and supplications—then will I bless them—but not before.” But Beloved, God says no such thing! It is true He does bless them who cry unto Him but He blesses them before they cry, for their cries are not their own cries, but cries He has put into their lips! Their desires are not of their own growth, but desires which He has cast like good seed into the soil of their hearts. God saves men who do not seek Him! Oh, wonder of wonders! It is mercy indeed when God saves a seeker, but how much greater mercy when He seeks the lost Himself? "Mark the parable of Jesus Christ concerning the lost sheep. It does not run thus—“A certain man had a hundred sheep and one of them did go astray. And he tarried at home and lo, the sheep came back and he received it joyfully and said to his friends, rejoice, for the sheep that I have lost has come back.” No. He went after the sheep—it never would have come after him."

II. Now, then, for the second point. “There now,” says my ultra friend, “he is going to contradict himself.” No, my Friend, I am not! I am only going to contradict you. The second point is MAN’S RESPONSIBILITY. “But to Israel He says, All day long I have stretched out My hands unto a disobedient and contrary people.” Now, these people whom God had cast away had been wooed, had been sought, had been entreated to be saved. But they would not and inasmuch as they were not saved, it was the effect of their disobedience and their contrariness. That lies clearly enough in the text. When God sent the Prophets to Israel and stretched forth His hands, what was it for? What did He wish them to come to Him for? Why, to be saved! “No,” says one, “it was for temporal mercies.” Not so, my Friend! The verse before is concerning spiritual mercies and so is this one, for they refer to the same thing. Now, was God sincere in His offer? God forgive the man who dares to say He was not! God is undoubtedly sincere in every act He does. He sent His Prophets. He entreated the people of Israel to lay hold on spiritual things, but they would not. And though He stretched out His hands all the day long, yet they were, “a disobedient and contrary people,” and would not have His love. And on their head rests their blood!"


“Well,” says one, “I like the Doctrine. Still there are very few that preach it and those that do are very high.” Very likely, but I care little what anybody calls me. It matters very little what men call you. Suppose they call you a “hyper”—that does not make you anything wicked, does it? Suppose they call you an Antinomian—that will not make you one! I must confess, however, that there are some men who preach this Doctrine who are doing ten thousand times more harm than good because they don’t preach the next Doctrine I am going to proclaim, which is just as true! They have this to be the sail, but they have not the other to be the ballast. They can preach one side, but not the other. They can go along with the high Doctrine but they will not preach the whole of the Word. Such men caricature the Word of God! And just let me say here, that it is the custom of a certain body of Ultra-Calvinists, to call those of us who teach that it is the duty of man to repent and believe, “Mongrel Calvinists.” If you hear any of them say so, give them my most respectful compliments and ask them whether they ever read Calvin’s works in their lives. Not that I care what Calvin said or did not say, but ask them whether they ever read his works. And if they say “No,” as they must say, for there are 48 large volumes—you can tell them that the man whom they call “a Mongrel Calvinist,” though he has not read them all, has read a very good share of them and knows their spirit. And he knows that he preaches substantially what Calvin preached—that every Doctrine he preaches may be found in Calvin’s Commentaries on some part of Scripture or other. We are TRUE Calvinists! However, Calvin is nobody to us. Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and the old fashioned Bible are our standards. Beloved, let us take God’s Word as it stands! If we find high Doctrine there, let it be high! If we find low Doctrine, let it be low! Let us set up no other standard than the Bible affords!"


In the end it is still; (John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Edited by Nathaniel
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But Paul taught predestination, but you don't believe it, and because you don't believe it, you try to avoid it. But it is there. It is there all through the Old Testament as well as the new.

God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.

It is strange that most on here would be dispensationalists, but the "Father of Dispensationalism", J N Darby was an extreme Calvinist.

Edited by Invicta
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But Paul taught predestination, but you don't believe it, and because you don't believe it, you try to avoid it. But it is there. It is there all through the Old Testament as well as the new.

God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.

It is strange that most on here would be dispensationalists, but the "Father of Dispensationalism", J N Darby was an extreme Calvinist.



I believe what the Bible teaches on predestination.


God fore ordained the sin of Judas, but he was stll held responsible for his actions.


God did no such thing. God foreknew it. He knows every hair on your head, and where every atomic particle in the universe is at any given time just like He knows about every single future wicked act which will ever be committed. But He didn't "foreordain" any wicked act. He isn't the author of sin.

wicked act to happen.
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1 Cor 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV

God bless,
Larry

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4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

How limited us God's kindness? I'm just foolish enough to believe that whatever God does far EXCEEDS any we can imagine. The pastor of the church I just left made the statement that "The most important thing to God is his glory". Really? "Charity vaunteth not itself" but God does?

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

God wants us to "love our brother as our self". So I ask you, is God Himself..selfish? Is His Glory his main goal? Please look at the first clause in this verse and zero in on that word "unseemly"...


Word Origin & Historyunseemly
early 14c., "unfitting, indecent," from un-(1) "not" + seemly. Cf. O.N. usoemiligr.

If I tell you that I'm kind, and unselfish, but then I turn right around and do something that is selfish and unkind, then that in itself is totally "unfitting" or "unseemly" . It woulds not only be questionable but it would go against' my kind unselfish reputation. In God's case it would be totally out of character. God is going to get glory my friend because He has PROVED Himself worthy. God is a giver, not a taker and He has given His only begotten son to die a horrible death at Calvary and this unfathomable kindness was given for every man who ever lived.. His precious blood was sufficient for everyone. The Lord Jesus Christ who created us all, didn't make some of us for the sole purpose of suffering in agony for his glory and pleasure; That's not the way He is. He wants to bestow His glorious blessing of love, joy and eternal life on us all. If we choose to reject what God had done for us, it is OUR fault. He knows who will reject Him, yes, but that is because He is God.
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I believe in predestination too. It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not. You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not. God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture. It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple. The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light. If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination. Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?

Edited by Rick Schworer
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From Matthew Henry's commentary:

1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Co 13:8-13
Charity Commended. ( A.D. 57.)
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Here the apostle goes on to commend charity, and show how much it is preferable to the gifts on which the Corinthians were so apt to pride themselves, to the utter neglect, and almost extinction, of charity. This he makes out,
I. From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see ch. 14:6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength.
II. He hints that these gifts are adapted only to a state of imperfection: We know in part, and we prophesy in part, v. 9. Our best knowledge and our greatest abilities are at present like our condition, narrow and temporary. Even the knowledge they had by inspiration was but in part. How little a portion of God, and the unseen world, was heard even by apostles and inspired men! How much short do others come of them! But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity, because they were to vanish with the imperfections of the church, nay, and long before, whereas charity was to last for ever.
III. He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (v. 10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here. The difference between these two states is here pointed at in two particulars: 1. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood: When I was a child, I spoke as a child (that is, as some think, spoke with tongues), I understood as a child;
ephronoun
—sapiebam (that is, "I prophesied, I was taught the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, in such an extraordinary way as manifested I was not out of my childish state"), I thought, or reasoned,
elogizomen,
as a child; but, when I became a man, I put away childish things. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused and indistinct notions of things, have children, in comparison of grown men! And how naturally do men, when reason is ripened and matured, despise and relinquish their infant thoughts, put them away, reject them, esteem as nothing! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts and acquisitions in this world, when we come to heaven. We shall despise our childish folly, in priding ourselves in such things when we are grown up to men in Christ. 2. Things are all dark and confused now, in comparison of what they will be hereafter: Now we see through a glass darkly (
en ainigmati,
in a riddle), then face to face; now we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known. Now we can only discern things at a great distance, as through a telescope, and that involved in clouds and obscurity; but hereafter the things to be known will be near and obvious, open to our eyes; and our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1 John 3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Ps 36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day.
IV. To sum up the excellences of charity, he prefers it not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope (v. 13): And now abide faith, hope, and charity; but the greatest of these is charity. True grace is much more excellent than any spiritual gifts whatever. And faith, hope, and love, are the three principal graces, of which charity is the chief, being the end to which the other two are but means. This is the divine nature, the soul's felicity, or its complacential rest in God, and holy delight in all his saints. And it is everlasting work, when faith and hope shall be no more. Faith fixes on the divine revelation, and assents to that: hope fastens on future felicity, and waits for that: and in heaven faith well be swallowed up in vision, and hope in fruition. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But love fastens on the divine perfections themselves, and the divine image on the creatures, and our mutual relation both to God and them. These will all shine forth in the most glorious splendours in another world, and there will love be made perfect; there we shall perfectly love God, because he will appear amiable for ever, and our hearts will kindle at the sight, and glow with perpetual devotion. And there shall we perfectly love one another, when all the saints meet there, when none but saints are there, and saints made perfect. O blessed state! How much surpassing the best below! O amiable and excellent grace of charity! How much does it exceed the most valuable gift, when it outshines every grace, and is the everlasting consummation of them! When faith and hope are at an end, true charity will burn for ever with the brightest flame. Note, Those border most upon the heavenly state and perfection whose hearts are fullest of this divine principle, and burn with the most fervent charity. It is the surest offspring of God, and bears his fairest impression. For God is love, 1 John 4:8,16. And where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height—there, and there only, will it be perfected.

(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)

There are so many theological arguments that will never be settled until the Lord takes us home. Why must the Church bite and snipe at each other while the people of the world are slipping into the abyss. Let us just do the job we were assigned when Jesus ascended: Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

After all what have we to gain in these endless discussions that is more important than giving out the "good news" of the gospel of Christ. Let us be charitable to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ and get about our Lord's business.

God bless,
Larry

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I believe in predestination too.  It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not.  You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not.  God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture.  It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.  

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple.  The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light.  If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination.  Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?



I agree predestination is all in Christ alone.

(Eph 1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It would have to be in Christ we could never be predestined in ourselves if so we could never be holy and without blame before him in love. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world.Though I disagree we do anything (by ourselves) Edit: because even our believing is worked by God. Though we must believe.) to become Christ's. It is all bought by Christ alone (Which though we differ what what all is in this case too.. I assume we would agree that Salvation is all of the Lord.)

(Rom 9:10) And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
(Rom 9:11) (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
(Rom 9:12)  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Rom 9:16) So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(Heb 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Now I just thought of this..
We flee for refuge to Christ (Man's Responsibility), But it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.(Sovereign Grace) Because he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and calls us by his Grace through the spirit.   (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So in the end it truly is;
(Rom 8:31) What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?


I'll take the risk of being called a Spurgeonist.... As I find this similar to your situation.  (Sovereign Grace and man's responsibility (again..) Thanks to Spurgeon Gems :))

(Rom 10:20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
(Rom 10:21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

CH Spurgeon:

“Well,” says someone, “I should have thought that although the Savior might not require an earnest seeking and
sighing and groaning and a continuous searching after Him, yet certainly He would have desired and demanded that eve-
ry man, before he has Grace, should ask for it.” That, indeed, Beloved, seems natural, and God will give Grace to them
who ask for it. But mark, the text says that He was manifested “to them who asked not for Him.” That is to say, before
we ask, God gives us Grace! The only reason why any man ever begins to pray is because God has put previous Grace in
his heart which leads him to pray. I remember when I was converted to God, I was an Arminian through and through. I
thought I had begun the good work myself and I used to sit down and think, “Well, I sought the Lord four years before I
found Him,” and I think I began to compliment myself upon the fact that I had perseveringly entreated of Him in the
midst of much discouragement! But one day the thought struck me, “How was it you came to seek God?” and in an in-
stant the answer came from my soul, “Why, because He led me to do it! He must first have shown me my need of Him, or
else I should never have sought Him! He must have shown me His preciousness, or I never would have thought Him worth
seeking.” And at once I saw the Doctrines of Grace as clear as possible. GOD must begin! Nature can never rise above
itself. You put water into a reservoir and it will rise as high as that, but no higher if let alone. Now, it is not in human
nature to seek the Lord. Human nature is depraved and, therefore, there must be the extraordinary pressure of the Holy
Spirit put upon the heart to lead us to first ask for mercy. But mark, we do not know anything about that while the Spir-
it is operating! We find that out afterwards. We ask as much as if we were asking all of ourselves. Our business is to seek
the Lord as if there were no Holy Spirit at all—and although we do not know it, there must always be a previous motion
of the Spirit in our heart before there will be a motion of our heart towards Him— "


(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


I agree with Pilgrim though let us labour the more to share the Gospel than debate (for lack of thinking of a better word.) Oh, if we think of our Savior's love how often do we (At the very least I) fall short. :( Edited by Nathaniel
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I'm sorry but there IS one thing you must do to be saved.
It's invisible, you cannot hold it or even touch it, it moves nothing, makes nothing and has never taken one drop of sweat to perform yet it must be done or you will go to HELL. This thing you must do is up to you alone and God will not do it for you. But He has graciously provided a way for it to be effective and He has even given every man the ability to do perform it.. Know what it is? Only Believe

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Why is God doing things for His own glory and honour considered by some to be selfish and wrong? If God is worthy of such and such brings Him pleasure, why would such be wrong? What about the verses throughout Scripture which says God does this or that for His glory? What about those He had around His throne praising Him continually?

I've never heard Believers say this is a problem before (I have heard some unbelievers cry about it), and I must have missed it because I'm not sure how that even came up in this thread.

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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.
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I believe in predestination too. It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not. You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not. God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture. It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple. The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light. If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination. Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?


You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.
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Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.


Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.
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You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.


The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place. Edited by Rick Schworer
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The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place.


That is an interesting way of disbeliving the scriptures. The particular baptist teaching is not just on the word "predestination" but on the whole teaching of the bible, both Old and New Testaments.
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Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.

I don't know that I've heard of what you seem to be trying to say.

In any event, the fact Jesus wasn't seeking glory while here in human form, while He was doing all for the glory of God, hardly negates the fact that Scripture is filled with examples of God doing or bringing about things for His glory. I really don't see what the problem with that is.
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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Chapter 8


14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Claiming that Jesus wanted zero glory is absurd. Context.
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Question: Is anyone being helped by this?

Anyone helping to sharpen the brothers iron? so to speek?

Have any of you gone back to the Bible and done some indepth studies to reafferm what you say and belive? (I think all of you have from what I'm reading, but the questin has to be asked)

Is this keeping you from sharing your faith with others? Leading others to the Lord for salvation?

If all this is doing is gendering striff amoung the bretheren, stop now and go bowling or something. If on the other hand, you find this intellectually stimulating like I do, then cary on in brotherly love and provoke none to wrath.


Dr. Roberson

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He also died for non Calvinists.

He died for you as well as me.

I think a more productive thread would be what is the Gospel

Some say that preaching the gospel os expounding the whole scriptures from Gen. to Rev. Our preacher yesterday preached on 1 Cor. 15. which plainly says that the gospel is the death and resurrection of Christ. I am sorry to say that I learnt more in our scripture lessons at school than I would learn in any of our sermons recently.

I believe the gospel starts with God. God is holy and cannot abide sin. He is a God who we must approach with awe and reverence. The sinfullness of man. Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; the death and resurrection of Christ. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. At school we told that you earnt death, but you could not earn eternal life, it was a gift of God.

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    • KJV ME!

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