Jump to content
Online Baptist

Calvinism on the March


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 273
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

That's encouraging, that the Biblical truth nicknamed "Calvinism" is being more widely accepted. The most faithful churches are the "reformed baptist."

Yes, Paul and Peter warned about false teachers and heresies way back then. I don't care if Augustine, Spurgeon or George Washington taught or believed your "Reformation" "doctrines of grace" or whate

The boring factor is the lack of proper engagement, & the resultant proliferation of "standard" refutations of "Calvinism." "I heard the Gospel, & responded in repentance & faith. It was

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Once upon a time, a great ruler chose a group of his subjects for his glorious kingdom, the other group, he chose to banish to a place of torment and death. He sent the handicapped, the weak and helpless, even innocent little children. Some were surely worthy of death, but not even the innocent were given a chance to even ask for mercy; he never allowed that. He had chosen to kill them all for his own pleasure and glory. He did receive his glory. Millions glorified him with cries of "Heil Hitler" and the place was Auschwitz.

One day, the Mighty King of the Universe, the Lord Jesus, will be glorified and part of His wonderful glory will be that when His enemies are judged, it will be proven without any doubt that He had truly and graciously extended His boundless love and mercy to every one of them, and that it was their own fault and no one elses that they rejected Him.. That will be, by far, the greater glory.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Did God choose/elect Abraham & his seed?

Neh. 9:7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

Deu. 7:6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu. 14:2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's funny coming from a guy who thinks God isn't going to keep His promises to Abraham.


Actually, Paul said that God has already fulfilled His promises to Abraham in Christ and the church.

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. - 2 Corinthians 1:20


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. - Galatians 3:16

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:28-29

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Once upon a time, a great ruler chose a group of his subjects for his glorious kingdom, the other group, he chose to banish to a place of torment and death. He sent the handicapped, the weak and helpless, even innocent little children. Some were surely worthy of death, but not even the innocent were given a chance to even ask for mercy; he never allowed that. He had chosen to kill them all for his own pleasure and glory. He did receive his glory. Millions glorified him with cries of "Heil Hitler" and the place was Auschwitz.

One day, the Mighty King of the Universe, the Lord Jesus, will be glorified and part of His wonderful glory will be that when His enemies are judged, it will be proven without any doubt that He had truly and graciously extended His boundless love and mercy to every one of them, and that it was their own fault and no one elses that they rejected Him.. That will be, by far, the greater glory.

Can you explain that in terms of God choosing Abraham & his descendants for blessing out of all the population of the earth?
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Brother Al (I don't remember how to spell your name :) ) - the spiritual ones, yes, but not all of the promises are spiritual:

Genesis 13:14-17, "And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."

Gen. 15:17-21, "And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

And it was passed on to David as well. The promise is clearly about land, and Israel hasn't been at peace since Solomon.

II Sam. 7:10-13, "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

Romans 11:25-29 makes it clear that while there is a spiritual Israel, there is also a physical, national Israel that is yet to recieve the promises.

Romans 11:25-29, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Edited by Rick Schworer
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist


Can you explain that in terms of God choosing Abraham & his descendants for blessing out of all the population of the earth?


Abraham and his descendents were blessed so that ALL of the world could be blessed. They were chosen to fulfill a purpose but they were NOT chosen to salvation. Many Jews have been saved by grace through faith but there have always been many wicked Jews too . Each individual Jew has to get saved the same as anyone else. Furthermore, according to the Word of God, even backwoods, redneck countryboys like me can be children of Abraham!
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member



Abraham and his descendents were blessed so that ALL of the world could be blessed. They were chosen to fulfill a purpose but they were NOT chosen to salvation. Many Jews have been saved by grace through faith but there have always been many wicked Jews too . Each individual Jew has to get saved the same as anyone else. Furthermore, according to the Word of God, even backwoods, redneck countryboys like me can be children of Abraham!

Abraham & his family were chosen out of all the earth,so that 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That took 2000 years before the Seed finished his saving work & commissioned his Apostles to take the Gospel to the world. How many died in those 2,000 years as guilty sinners, without excuse but without a Gospel?

The wonder & universality of the LORD's reign is declared, but is Psalm 96 a Gospel call?

1O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
3Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.
4For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
6Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.
7Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
8Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
9O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
10Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
11Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Edited by Covenanter
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist


Abraham & his family were chosen out of all the earth,so that 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That took 2000 years before the Seed finished his saving work & commissioned his Apostles to take the Gospel to the world. How many died in those 2,000 years as guilty sinners, without excuse but without a Gospel?

The wonder & universality of the LORD's reign is declared, but is Psalm 96 a Gospel call?

1O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
3Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.
4For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
6Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.
7Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
8Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
9O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
10Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
11Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.


In order for someone to be "without excuse", there has to be a reason. Understand what I'm saying? The "Seed" was not only promised way back in Genesis, but He was alive and well. You can read about Him in John Chapter 1 He was only MANIFESTED a little over 2000 years ago but He was around and He was active... People called on the "name of the Lord" way back in Genesis 4. He is The "I Am" who spoke to Moses in the burning Bush. He was in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrew children and He is the one who David called "my Lord" in Psalm 110. We look back to the cross, they in the OT looked forward.
The reason unbelievers were "without excuse" is because God has revealed Himself to them.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Yeah, the Calvinism vs hyper-Calvinism thing has been going on a long time. Not surprising considering those who don't believe in Calvinism at all tend to be separated on various aspects as well. Even some who don't go along with Calvinism yet agree with some aspects Calvin did. Some accept that as just the way it its while others go to extremes to drop anything Calvin may have agreed with to the point of tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

John,
What is the difference between hyper Calvinist and Calvinist?

A Calvinist believes the Scriptures, & preaches the Gospel of repentance & faith in Christ, knowing that God uses the preaching of the Word to make Christ known & so to save sinners. He believes that the Holy Spirit makes Christ real to the sinner, & gives ew life & saving faith in Jesus. Man is responsible for his sins & his rejection of Christ, yet is unable in his fallen nature to truly repent & trust Christ as Lord & Saviour. Only by the effective work of the Holy Spirit can he be saved - by grace. That work is effective only in the elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

OTOH a hypercalvinist believes that God will save all his elect apart from the Gospel, so that evangelism is not part of their operation.

Anticalvinists normally go beyond hypercalvinism by claiming Calvinists not only teach that only the elect can be saved, but that even if the non elect repent & seek salvation they cannot be saved. They develop a logic that goes beyond Scripture, whereas Calvinists are constrained by Scripture.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Anticalvinists normally go beyond hypercalvinism by claiming Calvinists not only teach that only the elect can be saved, but that even if the non elect repent & seek salvation they cannot be saved. They develop a logic that goes beyond Scripture, whereas Calvinists are constrained by Scripture.


Consider me an "anticalvinist". But you will search in vain to find where I have ever said that or taught that. I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32) I underlined the words "draw" and "drawn" because Calvinists say this means "dragged". It does not. You can "draw" on a rope attached to a bucket in a well and if it isn't stuck, it's going to move up the well shaft. But you can tie that same rope to a tree and "pull" til you're blue in the face but that tree isn't going anywhere. "draw" or "pull" can also mean to "attract". Read on......
James 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The particular lust that "draws" you may ATTRACT, TUG or PULL you, but it certainly doesn't physically "drag" you..
Any Calvinists that I remember debating with here teach that the "non- elect" aren't even "drawn" at all and that they don't even "seek salvation" because of their "total depravity". Edited by heartstrings
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist



Consider me an "anticalvinist". But you will search in vain to find where I have ever said that or taught that. I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32) I underlined the words "draw" and "drawn" because Calvinists say this means "dragged". It does not. You can "draw" on a rope attached to a bucket in a well and if it isn't stuck, it's going to move up the well shaft. But you can tie that same rope to a tree and "pull" til you're blue in the face but that tree isn't going anywhere. "draw" or "pull" can also mean to "attract". Read on......
James 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The particular lust that "draws" you may ATTRACT, TUG or PULL you, but it certainly doesn't physically "drag" you..
Any Calvinists that I remember debating with here teach that the "non- elect" aren't even "drawn" at all and that they don't even "seek salvation" because of their "total depravity".

I know a couple Calvinists have pointed to Spurgeon who preached/taught that there was a specific call on a few and a general call on all. Spurgeon argued against those calling themselves Calvinists who held to a form of hyper-Calvinism.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32)

What is the scope of "ALL?" Greeks wanted to see Jesus, & he explains that after his crucifixion he will draw all men. He clearly means Gentiles as well as Jews.

John 12:20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
.....
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God uses the Gospel to draw sinners to Christ, all those who hear the Gospel are "called" but only the elect are truly "drawn".

"World" similarly is defined by context, e.g. 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him. "The world" in context means a large number of Jews.

We are told John 3:16For God so loved the world, .... & 1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Edited by Covenanter
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
God uses the Gospel to draw sinners to Christ, all those who hear the Gospel are "called" but only the elect are truly "drawn".
I see..... if Mama CALLS "Supper's ready...come and get it!" you will hear it but are incapable of responding, but if you happen to be fortunate enough to catch the aroma of fried chicken, cornbread and turnip greens wafting on the breeze, then you are DRAWN? (Bad analogy.....I guess only connoisseurs of Southern cuisine would be drawn in this case) ;)



What is the scope of "ALL?"
Maybe something like this?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Try to find Scripture reasoning - you are immediately providing silly logic. You must be constrained by Scripture.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All have sinned....He's drawing all men...all means all. What's so hard about that?


Word Origin & History
all
O.E. eall "all, every, entire," from P.Gmc. *alnaz (cf. O.Fris., O.H.G. al, O.N. allr, Goth. alls),
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick comment on the original post. I haven't read any of the other posts, so I might be repeating something someone else has said. The info about BJU in particular caught my eye, because that's my alma mater. I thought I should mention that BJU affixes a slip of paper to the front pages of all of the books they sell in the bookstore, a disclaimer which indicates that the opinions of the authors are not necessarily in agreement with the views of the school. If I remember right, there's more verbage on that paper which talks about how we can learn good things from those with whom we disagree on some issues. Also, just to set the record straight, BJU actually dismissed a faculty member a few years back because he was too Reformed.

From my perspective, Calvinism/Reformed theology is a current trend...the result of the pendulum swinging back from the extreme practices of Arminianism which characterized many churches in previous but fairly recent years. It's human nature to react against the weaknesses of the thoughts and practices of previous generations. And so, back and forth we go...

The reasonable person, IMO, understands that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism--nor any man-made theological construct, for that matter--adequately and fully expresses the deep truths of God's work of salvation...truths that we cannot grasp, but that we must believe. From God's perspective, there's no tension between 'whosoever will' and 'predestination.' It's a paradox to us, because our minds are finite. The Calvinism/Arminianism debate will never be settled this side of heaven. But that doesn't stop people from shouting past each other...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Tell a friend

    Love Online Baptist? Tell a friend!
  • Members

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Alan

      Happy Birthday John Young! God Bless! 🍰
      · 1 reply
    • KJV ME!

      Now it is time for me to step out of my shell and let go... I AM STRICT KJV!... In scripture God said he would preserve his word... Well did he or didn't he?... If there is every translation under the sun, then he didn't but I KNOW HE DID!... The preserved word of God called the KJV is for the English people has been around for over 400 years and what is interesting to me, is the KJV was translated in 1611 and the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620... Coincidence?... A new book the preserved KJV word of God for the New World... So take that you KJV naysayers... I have been reading, studying and digging through the KJV for over 50 years... My belief is 100% Christ and scripture says so... Glad to be here and its time to take these shackles off!   
      John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
      I am... Brother Ramsey
       
      · 1 reply
    • stan1964stanssb

      Praise God I found such a powerhouse of the outpouring of His Spirit and unapologetic in regards of the defense of the KJV Bible. When I became a Christian back in 1984, I was told to get & read the KJV. It's been my choice all these years.
      · 0 replies
    • 1Timothy115  »  Ukulelemike

      Mike,
      RE: This is why I am here, why are you?
      Also, the land in Egypt wasn't land God gave them it was land Joseph through Pharaoh gave them. God gave them Canaan.
      Dave 
      · 1 reply
    • Alan

      Praise the Lord! Sherry and I, safe, tired, and joyful,  are back in Taiwan.
      · 0 replies
  • Popular Now

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      27,621
    • Total Posts
      279,879
  • Topics

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Alan

      Happy Birthday John Young! God Bless! 🍰
      · 1 reply
    • KJV ME!

      Now it is time for me to step out of my shell and let go... I AM STRICT KJV!... In scripture God said he would preserve his word... Well did he or didn't he?... If there is every translation under the sun, then he didn't but I KNOW HE DID!... The preserved word of God called the KJV is for the English people has been around for over 400 years and what is interesting to me, is the KJV was translated in 1611 and the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620... Coincidence?... A new book the preserved KJV word of God for the New World... So take that you KJV naysayers... I have been reading, studying and digging through the KJV for over 50 years... My belief is 100% Christ and scripture says so... Glad to be here and its time to take these shackles off!   
      John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
      I am... Brother Ramsey
       
      · 1 reply
    • stan1964stanssb

      Praise God I found such a powerhouse of the outpouring of His Spirit and unapologetic in regards of the defense of the KJV Bible. When I became a Christian back in 1984, I was told to get & read the KJV. It's been my choice all these years.
      · 0 replies
    • 1Timothy115  »  Ukulelemike

      Mike,
      RE: This is why I am here, why are you?
      Also, the land in Egypt wasn't land God gave them it was land Joseph through Pharaoh gave them. God gave them Canaan.
      Dave 
      · 1 reply
    • Alan

      Praise the Lord! Sherry and I, safe, tired, and joyful,  are back in Taiwan.
      · 0 replies
×
×
  • Create New...