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It wouldn't bother me either way because either way, God knew billions would be cast into hell and He chose this course for His own reasons.


John is right. In non-Calvinism, God creates people who He knows will never choose Him and He will damn them to Hell. In Calvinism, God creates people who He knows will never choose Him and He will damn them to Hell, but some of them, He chooses to save and take them to Heaven. Not much of a difference when it comes to creating people to send to Hell.
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That's encouraging, that the Biblical truth nicknamed "Calvinism" is being more widely accepted. The most faithful churches are the "reformed baptist."

Yes, Paul and Peter warned about false teachers and heresies way back then. I don't care if Augustine, Spurgeon or George Washington taught or believed your "Reformation" "doctrines of grace" or whate

The boring factor is the lack of proper engagement, & the resultant proliferation of "standard" refutations of "Calvinism." "I heard the Gospel, & responded in repentance & faith. It was

Honestly, that is exactly how many non-Christians view God, and to some extent they are right. We don't need to justify God though; He is just Himself when He damns the sinner. The dilemma or "hard part", to put it that way, for God was to be able to justify the ungodly and remain just. The solution was to send His son to die for the ungodly and in that way justify them by imputing Jesus' righteousness to sinners.

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I disagree. I can tell you as a real Calvinist that Calvinists believe man does have a choice, but he will never choose God on his own, because he doesn't want to by nature. But either way you put it, you must still also the answer the same question that we have to: Why does God allow people whom He knows will never choose Him and whom He will damn to Hell to be born?

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I disagree. I can tell you as a real Calvinist that Calvinists believe man does have a choice, but he will never choose God on his own, because he doesn't want to by nature. But either way you put it, you must still also the answer the same question that we have to: Why does God allow people whom He knows will never choose Him and whom He will damn to Hell to be born?


God isn't going to force anyone to choose him. He knows most will not even though he wills that all would choose him. God is gracious because he has given everyone the chance to be washed of their sins. He died for the sins of the world and I mean world as in every human. Edited by MatthewDiscipleOfGod
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If that is so, then God was less glorious before creation than after. If God had to earn glory, then He was less glorious before (even not glorious at all at the beginning). Such a God is then dependent on His creation to become more or less glorious. The Bible does not teach that.

God is already infinitely glorious. His intention to magnify His glory is not to gain more, but rather to display the full extent of the glory that He already has. This includes displaying His glory in love and in judgment. The Bible clearly says that.


"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." - Eph 1:4-6 (His glory displayed in love)


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:22-24 (His glory displayed in judgment)


Revelation 4:10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created
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So, is God's glory dependent on creation? So.. (let's assume there is free will in the sense you describe it) will God get less glory if I don't choose Him and start a cult and lead a million people to Hell who might have otherwise accepted Him if it were not for me? Wow, so we have the power to make God unglorious! Even God Himself then doesn't have that power. I highly disagree if you claim that God's glory is dependent on creation. You didn't make a comment on the verse, so I'm not saying you are claiming that for sure, but you seem to be gesturing towards such a notion. This is the logical (and heretical) conclusion of such a notion.

2 points on that verse:
1) That verse isn't necessarily saying that God earned glory which He didn't have before by creating all things. It says "He is worthy to receive glory and honor and power: for He has created all things". But the question is what did He create all things through if not by His power? He did not become powerful to create after creating, but He created because He was powerful to create and through creation, He displayed that power. The same then applies to glory and honor. He is worthy to receive it because He has demonstrated through creating all things that He is glorious and powerful.
2) The verse says "thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created". So, all includes the Lake of Fire, correct? And if all things were created for His pleasure, was not the Lake of Fire created for His pleasure as well? Oh, and satan is included in all as well. He is a servant of God who hates God but can do nothing but what God allows (wills) that he do. I know this might sound very strange to many, but God having created everything for His pleasure includes satan and satan's destiny to the Lake of Fire. There's really no way around it.

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Some thoughts on God's pleasure: It pleased God to crush His son: "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." - Isaiah 53:10. Does that mean that God was just plain happy to kill His Son just for the fun of it? No. Did it grieve Him? I'm sure it did (can't think of a verse to support that though at the moment; maybe you guys can think of one to help me out). So was God pleased and grieved at the same time? Yes. God can feel both at the same time. There are times when we can feel two contradictory emotions at the same time as well. However, I believe that God, being perfect, has a more perfect capacity to do that than we do. So, why did it please Him to crush His Son? I believe it is for the same reason that Jesus endured the cross: for the joy that was set before Him (Hebrews 12:2). And what was that joy? The next verse tells us: "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." - Isaiah 53:11. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, it was made possible for God to be both just and the justifier of the ungodly. The joy, victory, and glory that was to had from that made it pleasing for God to crush His Son. Now, if God took pleasure in the death of His perfect and sinless Son Whom He loves, why is it so hard to believe that He has pleasure in crushing sinners? "And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." - Deuteronomy 28:63. Yet, at the same time, God also does not have pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 18:32). So, God is grieved by the prospect of having to destroy sinners, yet at the same time, He will rejoice to destroy them. Why is this so? I believe the same reason: destroying sinners will show the glory of His judgment. Even though God has a will for all to come to Him, He does not bring that about because He has a greater will for His glory to be displayed, and in displaying His glory, it will be better for us for we get to see it displayed in judgment when we would otherwise not. God is very zealous for His glory. The Bible makes it clear. And He has good reason for it. He has no good reason whatsoever to put His glory second (there are significant problems which would arise if He did, but that is a slightly different topic). So, who are we to say that God cannot to create in order to destroy so that He may show His power, His wrath, and His glory in judgment?

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To "please" means two things: a ) to make happy, or b ) to satisfy.

Christ suffering on the cross did not make His Father happy, as you are strangly suggesting, but it did satisfy his demand for a holy sacrifice.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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Correction: In Calvinism God creates people so that He can damn them without giving them another option.

Not at all:

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom. 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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One Scripture that has really caused me to lean towards Calvinism (my theology has shfited very heavily towards Reformed theology over the past 2 years or so, as a disclaimer---though ultimately my thoughts are Calvinism v Armenianism...does it really matter? not really)..is Romans 9.

To all those who say that Salvation is entirely dependent upon our freewill and ability to choose, and no upon God choosing us and calling us by the power of his Holy Spirit, please explain to me these verses in Romans 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

This clearly states that God has mercy on whom he will have mercy and hardens whom he wishes to harden. Did Pharoh really have a choice in the matter? Not according to these verses. Did Judas have a choice but to betray Christ? I do not think he did. These verses, in my mind, cannot be explained away to completely dismiss Calvinism.

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Scripture clearly tells us that if Christ be lifted up all men would be drawn to Him. Everyone is drawn one way or another, be it through conscience, nature, preaching, the word of God, etc... they chose to reject or accept.

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Scripture clearly tells us that if Christ be lifted up all men would be drawn to Him. Everyone is drawn one way or another, be it through conscience, nature, preaching, the word of God, etc... they chose to reject or accept.


That does not explain Romans 9: "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

If God harden's a man's heart, can that man possibly come to know Christ? Romans 9 is clear that God raised Pharaoh up and hardened his heart for teh purpose of showing God's power and that God's name would be declared throughout the earth.

If God is all knowing, and knows that a man will "choose" to reject him, and if God is all powerful, and does nothing to change that choice, is not God's lack of exercise of his power to compell the man to turn to him an act of damnation by God? If I see a small child in the street and I have the power to go out and get the child before a car runs the child over, and do absolutely nothing, am I not responsible for the child's death? Now, according to Romans 9, God will actually harden the heart of some men, and will have mercy on others.

To date, not a single person has explained this verse to say that God does not predestine some people. I am asking for an honest, explanation that makes sense AND is consistent with Romans 9 and other scripture.
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Jesus promised that all men would be drawn to Him after He was crucified in John 12:32. If all mankind is totally depraved it doesn't matter anymore, because of that simple promise. God gives all men the opportunity to respond after Calvary.

As far as the hardening of the heart thing, the example given is Pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times before God did. This matches the verses in Romans that speak of God giving people over to reprobate minds as a result of their actions - not just cuz He feels like it or gitz a kick out of watching people burn in Hell.

No one is predestinated to go to Hell. That goes smack against several Scriptures where God states whosoever will. No one is predestinated to go to Heaven either, until after they are saved.

The verses on predestination are speaking of a corporate predestination found within the body of Christ. Get "in Christ" and you're predestinated for a new body and an eternal inheritance, outside of the body of Christ you are not predestinated for anything. Corporate predestination is the same as saying, "Whoever gets in the bus will go to Chicago." The verses that speak on predestination all speak of being "in Christ."

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I think it was A.W.Tozer who said something to the effect that predestination is like two ships leaving port for two separate destinations.
You choose which ship to board. But it's already been determined where the ship will end up.

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If man is truly fallen, which I do not think anyone would disagree with, would not that fallen nature make him incapable of knowing God on his own? Sin completely and totaly separates us from God. We cannot do ANYTHING, even by choice, to find God. God has to find us. That is why he send Jesus. God now calls us by his Holy Spirit. Without God's call, man cannot experience salvation. That is why I think trying to convince people to pray a prayer is wrong. A prayer does not save people. Baptism does not save people. God issues a call by his Holy Spirit to a person. If a person accepts that call, he is saved, if he rejects it, he is not.

That leaves a couple questions:

1. Does God issue a call through his Holy Spirit to every person at some point in their lives? I believe he does. A strict Calvansit would say no, he only issues to the call to some.

2. When God calls a person, is it possible for a person to reject that call? If God reveals himself, even a tiny bit, to a person, is it possible for that man not to want more of God?

I believe that God does issue a call to everyone at some point, whether they have heard the message of Christ or not. Paul, in Romans 1 and 2 talk of people who have never heard, but that God will hold them responsible for what they know. God encounters people. A strict Calvanist would probably disagree, and that is largely due to my second question.

Once a call is given by God, a person must either accept or rejcect it. Is it possible to reject a call once it is given? I don't mean a plea to say a prayer, or even someone who has heard the message of Christ. I mean is it possible for one to wrestle with God and lose? Is it possible to feel the tugging in his or her heart and be drawn to God due to God's call, and then reject it? It is certainly possible to wrestle with God, but ultimately, will not the call of God win out? Jacob, when he wrestled with God, ultimately gave in. The wrestling was a part of the process necessary to put Jacob in a position to accept the call.

I don't knwo the answer to all of these things, as theologians have been debating for centuries with no conclusion. But this I do know. God does call people by his HOly Spirit. When people answer that call, truly wonderful things can happen in that person's life. God has called me to share his love and the message of Christ with others. That is a call I cannot reject.

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Whether or not man is totally depraved no longer matters, and it hasn't mattered since Calvary. Like I said, at Calvary God promised to draw all men unto Christ. At some point in every person's life they are drawn to the Lord in one way or another.

John 12:32-33, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
Here are clear passages on people freely rejecting the will of God. God's will is trampled on more than anything else in the world.

Acts 7:51, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

Matt. 23:37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

II Tim. 3:8, “Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.”

Duet. 8:20, “As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.”

II Chr. 33:10, “And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken.”

I wrote a series of articles on Calvinism awhile back, they might be a help to you. http://ricksarticles...label/Calvinism

Edited by Rick Schworer
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Here are clear passages on people freely rejecting the will of God. God's will is trampled on more than anything else in the world.


Those Scriptures do not advance the argument either way. You could post a set of Scriptures showing willing acceptance of salvation. The Holy Spirit renews us & gives us life, so we welcome the Saviour we may have long rejected.

Eze. 36:25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
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If man is truly fallen, which I do not think anyone would disagree with, would not that fallen nature make him incapable of knowing God on his own? Sin completely and totaly separates us from God. We cannot do ANYTHING, even by choice, to find God. God has to find us. That is why he send Jesus. God now calls us by his Holy Spirit. Without God's call, man cannot experience salvation. That is why I think trying to convince people to pray a prayer is wrong. A prayer does not save people. Baptism does not save people. God issues a call by his Holy Spirit to a person. If a person accepts that call, he is saved, if he rejects it, he is not.

That leaves a couple questions:

1. Does God issue a call through his Holy Spirit to every person at some point in their lives? I believe he does. A strict Calvansit would say no, he only issues to the call to some.

2. When God calls a person, is it possible for a person to reject that call? If God reveals himself, even a tiny bit, to a person, is it possible for that man not to want more of God?

I believe that God does issue a call to everyone at some point, whether they have heard the message of Christ or not. Paul, in Romans 1 and 2 talk of people who have never heard, but that God will hold them responsible for what they know. God encounters people. A strict Calvanist would probably disagree, and that is largely due to my second question.

Once a call is given by God, a person must either accept or rejcect it. Is it possible to reject a call once it is given? I don't mean a plea to say a prayer, or even someone who has heard the message of Christ. I mean is it possible for one to wrestle with God and lose? Is it possible to feel the tugging in his or her heart and be drawn to God due to God's call, and then reject it? It is certainly possible to wrestle with God, but ultimately, will not the call of God win out? Jacob, when he wrestled with God, ultimately gave in. The wrestling was a part of the process necessary to put Jacob in a position to accept the call.

I don't knwo the answer to all of these things, as theologians have been debating for centuries with no conclusion. But this I do know. God does call people by his HOly Spirit. When people answer that call, truly wonderful things can happen in that person's life. God has called me to share his love and the message of Christ with others. That is a call I cannot reject.

Spurgeon gave a sermon on how he believes God has a general call that goes out to all as well as a specific call for some.

Have you read that or anything dealing with that?
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Those Scriptures do not advance the argument either way. You could post a set of Scriptures showing willing acceptance of salvation. The Holy Spirit renews us & gives us life, so we welcome the Saviour we may have long rejected.

Eze. 36:25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Brother Ian, those verses debunk irresistible grace. Edited by Rick Schworer
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To "please" means two things: a ) to make happy, or b ) to satisfy.

Christ suffering on the cross did not make His Father happy, as you are strangly suggesting, but it did satisfy his demand for a holy sacrifice.


Um, how can you be satisfied and unhappy? I understand that might make sense if it would say that Christ's suffering satisfied God's demand for justice (and that is true), but that verse says it pleased God, not merely His justice as though justice is a thing owned by God and not a part of Him. God was pleased to bruise [crush] him. Pleasing, whether defined as satisfaction, or as more than just satisfaction, includes an element of pleasure. For example, if you were in sharp pain, and were given a pain killer that did nothing but stop the pain and didn't give you any pleasant feelings in and of itself, it would still give you pleasure, because it would take away the source of your anguish. The relative difference between the painful state and the normal state would be pleasing even if at other times a painless state might have no effect on your mood. Even when we are hungry and eat and are satisfied. That satisfaction brings pleasure, even if a small amount. Satisfaction and pleasure are not separable. Pleasure is just usually a stronger word for satisfaction. It's satisfaction on a higher level.

Once again, however, God's pleasure was not merely in crushing His Son, but in the results it would bring. Ultimately, it brought God more pleasure to crush His Son for the purpose of redeeming His elect than it did to keep Him from suffering, even though His Son's suffering was something that I believe brought Him grief as well. One reason to believe that was what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" It seems here that Jesus could have backed out if He wanted to and His plea would have tipped the scale and He would have not died. But I believe that Jesus shared the same hope of a greater future joy as His Father did, and that is why He still decided to go on the cross and die for us: "who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." - Hebrews 12:2.

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. - Psalm 115:3
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Brother Ian, those verses debunk irresistible grace.

Gen. 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
...
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Acts 24:24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to man in various ways - the glories of creation (e.g Ps. 19), preaching, etc - but man in his natural state always rejects that witness - willingly. The Holy Spirit does more to the elect - he shows us our sin & our Saviour, gives new life to those who were dead in trespasses and sins. Saving grace gives life, not condemnation, & that life eagerly believes in Jesus, God & Saviour.
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Can you clarify, are you saying that the person has everlasting life, and then he believes?

There are many people that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and the need for salvation in Jesus, and yet they don't trust Christ and become part of the elect.

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Can you clarify, are you saying that the person has everlasting life, and then he believes?

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I do not want to argue technicalities, but whatever an unsaved person believes does not save him. The process of salvation may take a long time, conviction & repentance, seeking salvation, are not salvation, but at some point he has new spiritual life & believes. Yes, new life comes before faith.

There are many people that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and the need for salvation in Jesus, and yet they don't trust Christ and become part of the elect. Agreed.
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    • KJV ME!

      Now it is time for me to step out of my shell and let go... I AM STRICT KJV!... In scripture God said he would preserve his word... Well did he or didn't he?... If there is every translation under the sun, then he didn't but I KNOW HE DID!... The preserved word of God called the KJV is for the English people has been around for over 400 years and what is interesting to me, is the KJV was translated in 1611 and the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620... Coincidence?... A new book the preserved KJV word of God for the New World... So take that you KJV naysayers... I have been reading, studying and digging through the KJV for over 50 years... My belief is 100% Christ and scripture says so... Glad to be here and its time to take these shackles off!   
      John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
      I am... Brother Ramsey
       
      · 1 reply
    • stan1964stanssb

      Praise God I found such a powerhouse of the outpouring of His Spirit and unapologetic in regards of the defense of the KJV Bible. When I became a Christian back in 1984, I was told to get & read the KJV. It's been my choice all these years.
      · 0 replies
    • 1Timothy115  »  Ukulelemike

      Mike,
      RE: This is why I am here, why are you?
      Also, the land in Egypt wasn't land God gave them it was land Joseph through Pharaoh gave them. God gave them Canaan.
      Dave 
      · 1 reply
    • Alan

      Praise the Lord! Sherry and I, safe, tired, and joyful,  are back in Taiwan.
      · 0 replies
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