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Calvinism on the March


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I still find it fascinating that some will argue so vehemently over whether God created people knowing only a few would be saved and the rest would be cast into hell or whether God created people and chose to save a few of them from being cast into hell.


That is not quite my reason.. (though hopefully I'm not sinfully arguing..)

I'll explain why I believe it is so important (though the most important thing in my view at this point is on the emphasis of believing and not on predestination or even election for that matter though I believe that is important as well.)
I'm worried about people believing that faith came from themselves.. changing the emphasis of believing (which is easier if you believe you started your faith.) as I did and thus falling far from the gospel in the fashion of the Galatians....


I'm just now (hopefully by God's grace) coming out of the legalism I fell into. However the danger is by changing the emphasis..


We would agree that it says whosoever believeth in HIM shall be saved.

When my first doubt came after I was saved. I was pointed to well did YOU believe in the promise? and I did believe in the promise THEREFORE I am saved.. There is a subtle trick of the devil to get you away from Christ.. Because, one of the promises is "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life " When I was saved I believed the promise that whosoever believes shall be saved by Christ and forgiven of their sins.. But notice the slight turn from the faith that leads to destruction.. Because the emphasis of the promise is changed. After my doubt my faith was on MY believing the promise and not the Christ behind the promise.

Hopefully I am explaining this aright.. Umm, the correct response should be I believed the promise Christ gave me that HE would save me and I still will believe that promise. However, not I believed therefore I am saved because I have believed then.

To put it simply there is a danger to put faith in faith more when one believes they started their faith. There is less tendency if one believes the doctrines of grace (that faith is the gift of God) to fall into this error which can be hard to discern.. Though there is a like error I shortly fell into with the doctrines of grace too.. I BELIEVED THEREFORE I am elect THEREFORE I am saved because all the elect shall be saved.. (Honestly you think after the first time I would know better.. (Then I fell again into fruit seeking... :/) But, I would beg of you all to look to Christ alone (His death, His life, His Righteousness, just as at the beginning; and so therefore because Christ did all this I am saved.Col 2:10 "And ye are complete in him") (Take it from this foolish Galatian that began in the spirit and thought to be made perfect by the flesh (In type.)

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ga 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love

I'll comment on these passages to get my point across.. With a huge danger that it could be taken the wrong way.. (Because belief does matter and I believe a true Child of God will never truly fall away even through seasons of unbelief (Like the Galatians and Peter.)

For in Jesus Christ neither my believing availeth any thing, nor unbelieving; but faith which worketh by love
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If you don't believe in predestination, election, faith is the gift of God alone worked by the Spirit through the Word... At least please look at it this way that faith wasn't of yourself it came from the promise. (which too is a gift of God.)

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Edited by Nathaniel
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Brother, salvation is simple, the Devil tries to make it complicated.

I agree somewhat.. (The somewhat could be because its not easy to articulate what we mean on this..)

Can you save yourself? No
(Yes I cannot save myself at all it must be all of Christ from start to end even my believing though..)

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



Can Christ save you? Yes.

I agree.. Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Do you trust Christ to save you? Yes.

If you believe that then you're saved.

In a sense I agree but, this is where I mostly worry about you.. Because notice

Do you trust Christ to save you? Yes.

If you believe that then you're saved.

notice the change of emphasis; I worry we look to much to ourselves. Even our believing (or fruits of the Spirit) and make and Idol of that. (and end up Col 2:19 "not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.") When we should look to Christ alone (Of course trusting in him alone for our salvation..)

But like i said in the beginning I could just be reading it in "because its not easy to articulate what we mean on this.."

Edited by Nathaniel
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Everyone has a measure of faith, Nathaniel. Even atheists believe in something; evolution comes to mind, They believe it don't they?. Faith is like trust. But who or what are you going to put that trust in? Yourself? The World? or Jesus?

In order to believe on Jesus, you turn against your thinking, your idea, your WAY....you let go of self and trust Jesus. You must come as a little child, the Bible says. Have you ever spoken kindly to a child and reached out to them asking if you can hold them and the child shake his/her head or turn away? That child, doesn't know you and doesn't trust you. You have to win that trust before you will see those little arms let go of Mommy and stretch toward you.

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Everyone has a measure of faith, Nathaniel. Even atheists believe in something; evolution comes to mind, They believe it don't they?. Faith is like trust. But who or what are you going to put that trust in? Yourself? The World? or Jesus?

In order to believe on Jesus, you turn against your thinking, your idea, your WAY....you let go of self and trust Jesus. You must come as a little child, the Bible says. Have you ever spoken kindly to a child and reached out to them asking if you can hold them and the child shake his/her head or turn away? That child, doesn't know you and doesn't trust you. You have to win that trust before you will see those little arms let go of Mommy and stretch toward you.


I agree; somewhat again (Lol) Though I believe the Lord will work in/create and win that (faith/trust) (Through the Spirit and the promises which lead to Christ) Because otherwise we wouldn't choose God (Roman's 3) at all because we all love darkness more than Light.. (John 3) as is evidenced from


Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

(Rom 11:7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(Rom 11:8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see,and ears that they should not hear ; ) unto this day.
(Rom 11:9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
(Rom 11:10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
(Rom 11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(John 3:4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(John 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(John 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(John 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

(John 6:26) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
(John 6:27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
(John 6:28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
(John 6:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
(John 6:30) They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
(John 6:31) Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
(John 6:32) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
(John 6:33) For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
(John 6:34) Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
(John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
(John 6:36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(John 6:40) Andthis is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:41) The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
(John 6:42) And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
(John 6:43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(John 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(John 6:48) I am that bread of life.
(John 6:49) Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
(John 6:50) This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
(John 6:51) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
(John 6:52) The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
(John 6:53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
(John 6:54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:55) For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
(John 6:56) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
(John 6:57) As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
(John 6:58) This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
(John 6:59) These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
(John 6:60) Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
(John 6:61) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
(John 6:62) [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
(John 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
(John 6:64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
(John 6:65) And he said,Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
(John 6:66) From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(John 6:67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(John 6:68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(John 6:69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
(John 6:70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(John 6:71) He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Romans 10:8-21 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


(Rom 3:9) What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Edited by Nathaniel
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SO........
My Daddy drags me church every Sunday and I'm a lost sinner sitting on a pew and no matter how hot Hell is preached nor how afraid I get..... I'm going to sit there like a knot on a log until God turns on some switch that's going to render me willing. Somebody better hold your hand and help you........you're liable not to find your way home.

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Brother, salvation is simple, the Devil tries to make it complicated.

Can you save yourself? No.

Can Christ save you? Yes.

Do you trust Christ to save you? Yes.

If you believe that then you're saved.

This is perhaps over simplistic. Untold numbers have "believed" this but are they really saved? Unless one actually knows who Christ is, knows their lost condition and know what salvation actually means they can "believe" Christ can get them to heaven without being saved. This is how so many come to the conclusion there is no need for repentance, no need to know who (or even which Jesus) they believe in, that on their own they can say the "magic" prayer of "belief", figure they are going to heaven now, and live hog wild to their hearts content because they are now good to go.

With all of the false teachings out there on salvation and how to get to heaven, we have to be extra careful in how we evangelize and talk about it.
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SO........
My Daddy drags me church every Sunday and I'm a lost sinner sitting on a pew and no matter how hot Hell is preached nor how afraid I get..... I'm going to sit there like a knot on a log until God turns on some switch that's going to render me willing. Somebody better hold your hand and help you........you're liable not to find your way home.

I certainly wouldn't put it that way, but until the Holy Ghost convicts one of their sins and pierces their heart they will be resistent to even the best of fire and brimstone preaching.
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I certainly wouldn't put it that way, but until the Holy Ghost convicts one of their sins and pierces their heart they will be resistent to even the best of fire and brimstone preaching.


Sort of like these guys were?

Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

They resisted...were scolded for resisting...but they couldn't help it because their "will" had not been switched on by God? Why scold them, huh?
Right...I have this swampland priced just right.........
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Sort of like these guys were?

Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

They resisted...were scolded for resisting...but they couldn't help it because their "will" had not been switched on by God? Why scold them, huh?
Right...I have this swampland priced just right.........

Who are you talking to? I didn't say anything about switching anything on, you did. Unless the Holy Ghost convicts someone, drawing them to Christ, they won't turn to Christ.
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Who are you talking to? I didn't say anything about switching anything on, you did. Unless the Holy Ghost convicts someone, drawing them to Christ, they won't turn to Christ.


Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Holy Ghost attempted to affect these men in some way and the men resisted it. Why would God the Holy Ghost waste His time with them if He had no intentions of convicting them anyway? Edited by heartstrings
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Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Holy Ghost attempted to affect these men in some way and the men resisted it. Why would God the Holy Ghost waste His time with them if He had no intentions of convicting them anyway?

In a given evangelistic message one can find those who are not moved at all, those who resist conviction and those that conviction brings them to Christ.

Why would the Holy Ghost convict those who won't come to Christ? Could it be so it can clearly be declared that the Lord warned them?

Judas received the same as the other disciples yet from before the foundation of the world Judas was to betray Christ. Was it a "waste"?
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