Calvinism on the March

[John81]

If Jesus lives in your heart, knowing God is not hard. BEING God and knowing everything He KNOWS...like the future...... is .. So some who, I suppose, can't come to grips with Him knowing what will happen, can't get beyond "if He knows it's gonna happen, He must MAKE it happen.

I'm really not sure what your point is here. God knows what will happen and God can make things happen.

[Covenanter]

The three of you really have me confused now with these last few posts

What's really being said here, clearly, in very plain English, please.

The "Calvinist" follows the teaching of Scripture, & limits his teaching to Scripture, & does not develop the doctrine beyond Scripture.
The anticalvinist develops "Calvinism" beyond Scripture, making logical arguments that are not constrained by Scripture. He then argues against his own arguments, not against Biblical "Calvinism."

[Invicta]

No sir, If he knows it will happen, it WILL happen, therefore it is predestined.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

No sir, If he knows it will happen, it WILL happen, therefore it is predestined.

Knowing something doesn't mean you are making it happen. I can know for a fact Jesus is returning but it isn't me doing it. I can know that if I drop a rock it will fall. That doesn't mean I am causing the actual falling to happen (that would be gravity). I'm not sure why Calvinists always get hung up on the faulty logic that knowing = causing.

[Alimantado]

Knowing something doesn't mean you are making it happen. I can know for a fact Jesus is returning but it isn't me doing it. I can know that if I drop a rock it will fall. That doesn't mean I am causing the actual falling to happen (that would be gravity). I'm not sure why Calvinists always get hung up on the faulty logic that knowing = causing.

I think I can help with this bit. I not nearly familiar enough with scripture to make a firm stand on election vs free will. But I do have a philosophical problem with free will co-existing with an omnicient God who is a creator, has a willand stands outside of time.

The analogies you've listed there (your knowledge of Jesus' return, dropping a rock) leave out the crucial point, which is that we are not talking about a passive spectator who has limited power or agency over the events in question. You didn't create the rock, you didn't 'create' gravity and nor did you create your own self with the ability and will to pick up the rock and drop it. But if you did create yourself with the inclination to pick up a rock and let it go, and then you created a rock in front of you, and then you created gravity, knowing that by doing so the rock would certainly fall when you picked it up and let it go, how could we not say you predetermined the entire event? The only way we could say that is if we admitted that your power in some of these areas was lacking--perhaps you couldn't make gravity work 100% of the time, or you couldn't guarantee the rock wouldn't disappear before you picked it up. Then the outcome would depend--to a certain extent--on chance. But is that what we believe about God?

I agree with John's point:

I still find it fascinating that some will argue so vehemently over whether God created people knowing only a few would be saved and the rest would be cast into hell or whether God created people and chose to save a few of them from being cast into hell.

I think the point John is making is that a debate about calvinism/free will is pretty much moot unless we can make a philosophical distinction between the alternatives he lists above. What is the difference between saying that God predetermines someone's salvation and saying that God creates someone with the character/inclination to freely reject the offer of salvation?

If we say that God doesn't predetermine everything, but we still believe in causality (most people do), then whence do our decisions about 'free' choices come from? Are they random? Are they caused by our nature/inclination? If so, where does our nature/inclination come from?

[Covenanter]

Knowing something doesn't mean you are making it happen. I can know for a fact Jesus is returning but it isn't me doing it. I can know that if I drop a rock it will fall. That doesn't mean I am causing the actual falling to happen (that would be gravity). I'm not sure why Calvinists always get hung up on the faulty logic that knowing = causing.

YOU are personally responsible for dropping that rock from the motorway bridge onto the car below. You can't blame God for gravity. Likewise YOU are personally responsible for you sin & unbelief & rejection of the Gospel.

[Brother Rick]

YOU are personally responsible for dropping that rock from the motorway bridge onto the car below. You can't blame God for gravity. Likewise YOU are personally responsible for you sin & unbelief & rejection of the Gospel.

The person is responsible if he willingly dropped the rock. If he was forced to drop it then he's not, if he had no choice in the matter he is not responsible. The person who forced him to drop is it responsible.

Likewise, if a person's destiny lies entirely at God's feet then why is the man responsible for rejecting the Gospel? He had no say in the matter, why should he bear the consequences? Logic would say according to Calvin's system God is responsible for that person going to Hell because God never gave him a legitimate choice otherwise.

Those who keep muttering about how we who do not believe in Calvinism are "not constrained by Scripture" keep ignoring very clear passages in the Bible. Calvinism is not constrained by Scripture or logic in my opinion.

1. You have to take a few difficult passages (anyone can find difficult passages for anything) and ignore a host of clear passages. This is backwards from how someone is to interpret Scripture and is exactly what the cults do: interpret that which is clear by that which is not clear.
2. You have to ignore the logical endpoints of many of basic beliefs of Calvinism, or risk becoming a hyper-Calvinist. In other words, believe Calvinism, but don't believe it too much.

I John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

I Tim. 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

I Tim. 2:6, “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

I Tim. 4:10, “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Heb. 2:9, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

II Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Edited November 4, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

The person is responsible if he willingly dropped the rock. If he was forced to drop it then he's not, if he had no choice in the matter he is not responsible. The person who forced him to drop is it responsible.

Likewise, if a person's destiny lies entirely at God's feet then why is the man responsible for rejecting the Gospel? He had no say in the matter, why should he bear the consequences? Logic would say according to Calvin's system God is responsible for that person going to Hell because God never gave him a legitimate choice otherwise.

For those who keep muttering about how we who do not believe in Calvinism are "not constrained by Scripture" keep ignoring very clear passages in the Bible. Calvinism is not constrained by Scripture or logic in my opinion.

That response proves my point - Calvin & I are not responsible for your logic. Adding to Calvinism in order to attempt to refute itis not a valid argument.

Scripture, & Reformed doctrine insist that man is a guilty sinner, dead in trespasses & sins, responsible for his condition & his actions, yet unable to save himself. Also that God is no way responsible for man's sin.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

I believe Rick articulated a response better than I ever could. After several years of debating with Calvinists I try to stay out of the debates. They end up causing nothing but frustration. Same happens when debating evolutionists for that matter. :)

[anime4christ]

If you want to call anything "forced" in Calvinism, it would be salvation, while damnation is optional and the option we naturally choose. God doesn't need to force anyone to be bad; they are that way by default. Back to salvation however, God still doesn't need to force anyone to get saved. AFAIK, most of you guys would define force as making someone do something against their will. When God saves a person, He changes that person's will, so there is absolutely no need to force them to do anything (BTW, if you want to argue that God does not change a person's will upon salvation, then how does eternal security work? You can live like a devil after salvation and still go to Heaven? Either God changes a person's will, or you have to be Arminian and believe in the possibility of apostasy).

That is a somewhat crude explanation, but I think that's as simple English as I can get to answer Rick's post.

[Covenanter]

If you want to call anything "forced" in Calvinism, it would be salvation, while damnation is optional and the option we naturally choose. God doesn't need to force anyone to be bad; they are that way by default. Back to salvation however, God still doesn't need to force anyone to get saved. AFAIK, most of you guys would define force as making someone do something against their will. When God saves a person, He changes that person's will, so there is absolutely no need to force them to do anything (BTW, if you want to argue that God does not change a person's will upon salvation, then how does eternal security work? You can live like a devil after salvation and still go to Heaven? Either God changes a person's will, or you have to be Arminian and believe in the possibility of apostasy).

That is a somewhat crude explanation, but I think that's as simple English as I can get to answer Rick's post.

Agreed. We think we have free will, because when we are saved, we willingly turn to Jesus even though for years we may have rejected him. Our faith is the result of the renewing work of the Holy Spirit in our spirits.

Titus 3:³For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
⁴But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
⁵Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
⁶Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
⁷That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[swathdiver]

Are there Calvinists here???

[heartstrings]

If you want to call anything "forced" in Calvinism, it would be salvation, while damnation is optional and the option we naturally choose. God doesn't need to force anyone to be bad; they are that way by default. Back to salvation however, God still doesn't need to force anyone to get saved. AFAIK, most of you guys would define force as making someone do something against their will. When God saves a person, He changes that person's will, so there is absolutely no need to force them to do anything (BTW, if you want to argue that God does not change a person's will upon salvation, then how does eternal security work? You can live like a devil after salvation and still go to Heaven? Either God changes a person's will, or you have to be Arminian and believe in the possibility of apostasy).

That is a somewhat crude explanation, but I think that's as simple English as I can get to answer Rick's post.

Huh? Edited November 4, 2011 by heartstrings

[Brother Rick]

Are there Calvinists here???

This was the best post of the entire thread. :D Edited November 4, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[anime4christ]

Are there Calvinists here???

Noooooooo!!! LOL :D